Theon Greyjoy; Azor Ahai Reborn?

[The Mother of The Others]

Jon could continue having subtle signs, like sausages and salted pork, while Dany continues having flamboyant signs like falling stars and dragons. Then, right up until the end, no one would really know which of them it was.

Aemon thought they should send Dany a maester to include her in the civilized world the citadel was building (so when the promised princess arose it wouldn't result in a catastrophe). The Prince was Promised to us, meaning he/she would accomplish something vital, right? So he wants Daenerys to succeed at setting the world right, so he wants her to have the aid of the Citadel. What we've since learned about the Citadel is they'd rather set themselves up for a catastrophe. Or, to see it from their POV, they'd rather be brave and oppose the rise of another dragon ruler. They might also see Aemon's request as his Targ-ness showing through, and not his wisdom.

[mikehendo]

I agree. There is a respectable body of opinion that Dany is a touch too obvious to be AA, but I reckon myself that its a double bluff and that while Dany is obviously AA, it will turn out as I've suggested above that AA is not the saviour of the world at all, but will need to be defeated in order to restore the balance

I agree, Dany is too obvious with her dragons. If she turns out to be AA or the ultimate hero that saves them all, I will be extremely disappointed. It is too mainstream/stereotypical fantasy for her to be the hero that rides in at the last possible moment to save the world.

Jaime's dream:

"As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered...the fire took on the color of steel itself so it burned with a silvery-light, and the gloom pulled back...Brienne's sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue."

Perhaps it is a dream about the eventual showdown between good and evil? But then, would that make Dany as a descendant of the Targs the evil one? She sure is misguided..

[The King of Worms]

You are saying Brienne is AA? For real?

Why not? She is a true knight who brings justice to evildoers throughout the land.

Now I know there are no bleeding stars and such to herald her coming, but whatever.

It could be too that the warrior who pulls the sword from the fire is not necessarily the Prince Promised, but rather just the warrior who pulls the sword for the fire... the one who heralds the coming of the Promised One... like a John the Baptist.

Learning that it was made from Ned's sword Ice, she journeys North to present it to Ned's own son, Jon Snow. She learns about the prophecy from Thoros, of course, who is awestruck when he sees the sword making all kinds of crazy light. Its the type of honorable quest Brienne would take upon herself rather than accept the dubious glory of being AA.

Jon has the bleeding star (Godric's bloody sigil) and the salt (Marsh's traitorous tears) and smoke (the steam in the winter air from his knife wounds). Jon survives his wounds or is revived by the "breath of life" thing. Melisandre declares him AA. The only thing that doesn't fit is the sword. Longclaw just doesn't work as lightbringer.

But the "warrior who pulls the sword from the fire" could be someone other than the AA.

[Prince of Winterfell]

As much as I'd like it to be Theon, I just don't think it is. It'd be sweet to have the mighty slayer of the Others as a white-haired, six-toed hero instead of a shining knight with a bright sword. Perhaps if Stannis is truly dead, Theon will stumble upon Lightbringer. Huh?

I don't think so, however.

I enjoy either Jaime or Brienne as AA, however. I feel like thee have been some very good points made about evidence toward him.

[ckongo]

I agree, Dany is too obvious with her dragons. If she turns out to be AA or the ultimate hero that saves them all, I will be extremely disappointed. It is too mainstream/stereotypical fantasy for her to be the hero that rides in at the last possible moment to save the world.

Perhaps it is a dream about the eventual showdown between good and evil? But then, would that make Dany as a descendant of the Targs the evil one? She sure is misguided..

It's interesting. Sometimes we dismiss the obvious choice because it is too obvious, and then get surprised when it turns out to be who we initially expected. Dany is the obvious choice. GRRM has made it clear she has a great destiny ahead of her. It was clear in the first book being the only character on the other side of the world whose story would eventually connect with everyone else. Being the unburnt, birthing dragons, and the prophecies in the House of the Undying only fortify that I think she's AA. It fits too well.

[Eyron]

I've not come across anything in the context of the books, but in traditional mythology Faeries/Elves cannot stand the touch of cold iron - just as here the White Walkers dissolve on contact with obsidian

I have found some clues in the book, and wrote about it in another thread, and I believe Sarah.jenice may have read it. So I thought the metal clue was a wink at me.

Bronze was the metal of the first men, and it is the only metal that suffices to be used for containing the dragons. The bronze doors to the dragons dungeons in KL worked, the iron doors at the dragons pit in Mereen were coming apart.

There is a lot more where that came from, but this is not the place. When I have got the theory straight I will make a topic of it.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

I would also point out a bit of foreshadowing that could support my theory that Jaime is a hidden Targ/AA reborn. When Catelyn confronts him while he's being held captive, Jaime utters the famous line, "There are no men like me. There's only me". Nothing more than Jaime's usual arrogance? Or could it be something more? There certainly aren't any men like Azor Ahai. There's only Azor Ahai.

[The Mother of The Others]

That'd make it a tradition in the Lannister family to have their kids fathered by someone else. Tywin's kids aren't really his, Robert's kids aren't really his. The Lannisters are really Targs, the Targs are really Blackfyres. And on and on, until finally Podrick is just Podrick. I actually like the symmetry of Tommen being a Targ. Jaime being a kinslayer kingslayer. And I say bring on ALL of these potential Azors. Let them all duke it out in a melee, or let them all join together like on Buffy Season Seven when all the world's Potential Slayers were brought to Buffy's house for training. Let's have something like that with Jon, Jaime, Daenerys, Aegon, Sandor, Victarion and Randyll all living in a beachhouse together as one by one someone gets eliminated each week until the real AA is revealed. For serious! They should all recognize they're in the running for some kind of prophetic title and all meet up for the AA olympics or whatever, to let the fates decide who's really AA.

[Silmarien]

Why can't both Dany and Jon be AA reborn, in two people? Dany's lightbringer is her dragons, and Jon will get the sword. Dany fulfills the prophesy so perfectly I'd think it'd stretch belief for GRRM to claim she isn't AA.

"Oh yeah, those stone eggs she turned into living dragons, when the red comet appeared in the sky, amid smoke and salt....total red herring. It's really just Jon, who has no dragons yet, but his assassination attempt occurred under a bloody star banner and there are smoke and salt at the Wall."

Sounds kinda lame.

I'd like it if both were AA, or Dany AA with Jon the PWWP.

It just doesn't make sense for prophesies to NEVER follow what the words say, and Dany fits it almost perfectly.

[Silmarien]

That'd make it a tradition in the Lannister family to have their kids fathered by someone else. Tywin's kids aren't really his, Robert's kids aren't really his. The Lannisters are really Targs, the Targs are really Blackfyres. And on and on, until finally Podrick is just Podrick. I actually like the symmetry of Tommen being a Targ. Jaime being a kinslayer kingslayer. And I say bring on ALL of these potential Azors. Let them all duke it out in a melee, or let them all join together like on Buffy Season Seven when all the world's Potential Slayers were brought to Buffy's house for training. Let's have something like that with Jon, Jaime, Daenerys, Aegon, Sandor, Victarion and Randyll all living in a beachhouse together as one by one someone gets eliminated each week until the real AA is revealed. For serious! They should all recognize they're in the running for some kind of prophetic title and all meet up for the AA olympics or whatever, to let the fates decide who's really AA.

Actually I'm liking this idea way better.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

It's interesting. Sometimes we dismiss the obvious choice because it is too obvious, and then get surprised when it turns out to be who we initially expected. Dany is the obvious choice. GRRM has made it clear she has a great destiny ahead of her. It was clear in the first book being the only character on the other side of the world whose story would eventually connect with everyone else. Being the unburnt, birthing dragons, and the prophecies in the House of the Undying only fortify that I think she's AA. It fits too well.

I agree that some people (myself included) automatically dismiss Dany because she's too obvious, but then again, she IS too obvious. I don't doubt that she has a great destiny ahead of her, but it may not be quite what people have in mind. Technically, hatching dragons is already a pretty major accomplishment. That alone could qualify as a "great destiny". But, "Mother of Dragons" doesn't necessarily equate to "Conqueror". As far as we know, Aegon the Conqueror wasn't a "Mother (or Father) of Dragons", but he was a definitely a conqueror.

In order for Dany to become a conqueror, she will first need to bind the dragons to her will, which she is yet to do, and then undergo a major transformation to become much more hardened to the world. As of now, she's not even willing to unleash her dragons against the armies that are besieging her city, for fear they might eat an innocent child, let alone unleash them upon innocent children. I ask, how exactly will she ever rain hellfire down upon Westeros if she's so concerned with innocent children? When Aegon was burning down castles with Balerion the Black Dread, I can assure you he didn't evacuate all the women and children first. He put them ALL to the torch... and it's not as if he had a choice. Dragon fire isn't much of a precision weapon. Fire doesn't make a distinction between innocent or guilty, it just burns.

And, based on what Dany has actually said, she isn't likely to return to Westeros any time soon. Like I said, unless she somehow hardens herself to the world, I can't imagine her ever abandoning her "children" to the slavers. If Dany is meant to fight the Others, it will have to be from Essos, because she doesn't seem very anxious to return "home" (wherever that is). Perhaps all of her enemies will somehow be destroyed, and she will inexplicably embrace the mantle of "conqueror", but GRRM would have to resort to deus ex machina to resolve that, as things currently stand.

My theory is Drogon will fly away, and abandon Dany to Jhoqo, who will take her captive and return her to the Dosh Kaleen. There's a prophecy that she will win the allegiance of the crones, so Jhoqo would be the perfect vehicle to deliver her to them. But in any case, I'm not so sure things will go completely as expected for her. She may fight the Others, but I don't see her conquering Westeros. And in all honesty, I think her naivety, and compassion will be the end of her. She's almost the perfect candidate to be killed, given GRRM's tendency to off characters who are idealistic and honorable, instead of realistic and rational. Dany is certainly a wide-eyed ideologue, and while her ideals may be noble, they'll only hold her back in her conquests.

[Silmarien]

I agree that some people (myself included) automatically dismiss Dany because she's too obvious, but then again, she IS too obvious. I don't doubt that she has a great destiny ahead of her, but it may not be quite what people have in mind. Technically, hatching dragons is already a pretty major accomplishment. That alone could qualify as a "great destiny". But, "Mother of Dragons" doesn't necessarily equate to "Conqueror". As far as we know, Aegon the Conqueror wasn't a "Mother (or Father) of Dragons", but he was a definitely a conqueror.

In order for Dany to become a conqueror, she will first need to bind the dragons to her will, which she is yet to do, and then undergo a major transformation to become much more hardened to the world. As of now, she's not even willing to unleash her dragons against the armies that are besieging her city, for fear they might eat an innocent child, let alone unleash them upon innocent children. I ask, how exactly will she ever rain hellfire down upon Westeros if she's so concerned with innocent children? When Aegon was burning down castles with Balerion the Black Dread, I can assure you he didn't evacuate all the women and children first. He put them ALL to the torch... and it's not as if he had a choice. Dragon fire isn't much of a precision weapon. Fire doesn't make a distinction between innocent or guilty, it just burns.

And, based on what Dany has actually said, she isn't likely to return to Westeros any time soon. Like I said, unless she somehow hardens herself to the world, I can't imagine her ever abandoning her "children" to the slavers. If Dany is meant to fight the Others, it will have to be from Essos, because she doesn't seem very anxious to return "home" (wherever that is). Perhaps all of her enemies will somehow be destroyed, and she will inexplicably embrace the mantle of "conqueror", but GRRM would have to resort to deus ex machina to resolve that, as things currently stand.

My theory is Drogon will fly away, and abandon Dany to Jhoqo, who will take her captive and return her to the Dosh Kaleen. There's a prophecy that she will win the allegiance of the crones, so Jhoqo would be the perfect vehicle to deliver her to them. But in any case, I'm not so sure things will go completely as expected for her. She may fight the Others, but I don't see her conquering Westeros. And in all honesty, I think her naivety, and compassion will be the end of her. She's almost the perfect candidate to be killed, given GRRM's tendency to off characters who are idealistic and honorable, instead of realistic and rational. Dany is certainly a wide-eyed ideologue, and while her ideals may be noble, they'll only hold her back in her conquests.

Well, to be fair, in her last chapter Dany did have some major revelations and her thoughts pointed to her becoming more hardened, as you say.

And we have no way of knowing whether Dany would've used the other two Dragons in the battle of Mereen, because she's not there. In any case, they're loose! So they're in play.

Dany's last chapter does not indicate that she is unchanged - she's finally decided to be a Dragon. Dragons plant no trees. etc. We'll have to see how she does in TWoW.

I have a feeling Dany was always going to have to have a growing pains part in her arc, because you don't go from meek shy little girl, to khaleesi, to superqueen overnight.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

Why can't both Dany and Jon be AA reborn, in two people? Dany's lightbringer is her dragons, and Jon will get the sword. Dany fulfills the prophesy so perfectly I'd think it'd stretch belief for GRRM to claim she isn't AA.

"Oh yeah, those stone eggs she turned into living dragons, when the red comet appeared in the sky, amid smoke and salt....total red herring. It's really just Jon, who has no dragons yet, but his assassination attempt occurred under a bloody star banner and there are smoke and salt at the Wall."

Sounds kinda lame.

I'd like it if both were AA, or Dany AA with Jon the PWWP.

It just doesn't make sense for prophesies to NEVER follow what the words say, and Dany fits it almost perfectly.

I'm of the opinion that the prophecies are to be taken cryptically, rather than literally. And, I'm not even sure if all the prophecies will pan out (remember Rhaego?).

Yes, the prophecy does perfectly fit with Dany, except for one thing... "salt". There was "smoke" from Drogo's funeral pyre, but no "salt", as far as I could tell. People explain this by claiming that Dany's tears symbolize salt, or that her birth on Dragonstone connects her to "salt", but I'm not buying it.

As I've previously mentioned on this thread, I think the prophecy points to Jaime... but then again, it's not nearly as obvious as it is for Dany. But let's think about. What were the major turning points in Jaime's life over the course of the series? 1) Being taken captive by Robb Stark. 2) Losing his hand to Vargo Hoat. 3) Revealing to Brienne why he killed Aerys. 4) Being released from captivity by Roose Bolton. 5) Freeing Tyrion from captivity after he was condemned to death.

1) Mental transformation

2) Physical transformation

3) Redemption

4) Rebirth

5) Revelation

When the Red Star Bleeds (when Oberyn Martell is killed, which led to Jaime freeing Tyrion), Azor Ahai will be reborn amidst smoke (the steam bath with Brienne where he revealed why he killed Aerys) and salt ("sharing the salt" at dinner with Roose Bolton when he was freed from captivity) to wake dragons (Targaryens) from stone (Casterly Rock).

His final transformation will come when his true Targ identity is revealed to him (i.e. to wake Targaryens from Casterly Rock).

The steam bath he took with Brienne was apparently so hot he nearly passed out (keep in mind, water is heated in Westeros with fire), and sharing a meal with someone is commonly referred to as "sharing the bread and salt"; sharing salt procures guest rights, etc...

And when you think about it, he really is a "true knight" deep down (one of the few). In murdering Aerys and his pyromancers, he protected the weak (i.e. the smallfolk and citizens of King's Landing) from the strong (the king and his henchmen). He was also the only Kingsguard to suggest stopping Aerys from raping Queen Rhaella. Similarly, he saved and protected Brienne, Pia, Tyrion, and Edmure Tully when they were at their most vulnerable. So there's definitely a pattern there. People tend to overlook all of that because of what he did to Bran... but if Bran ends up becoming the Dark Lord in control of the White Walkers, that may not even seem so bad in hindsight.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

Well, to be fair, in her last chapter Dany did have some major revelations and her thoughts pointed to her becoming more hardened, as you say. And we have no way of knowing whether Dany would've used the other two Dragons in the battle of Mereen, because she's not there. In any case, they're loose! So they're in play. Dany's last chapter does not indicate that she is unchanged - she's finally decided to be a Dragon. Dragons plant no trees. etc. We'll have to see how she does in TWoW. I have a feeling Dany was always going to have to have a growing pains part in her arc, because you don't go from meek shy little girl, to khaleesi, to superqueen overnight.

Very true. The end of ADwD did seem to imply she is starting to change, but I agree that the change will have to be gradual. Problem is, we're getting pretty close to the end, and she's going to have to do a complete 180 in short time. I've heard the next couple books may span a longer period of time, so that could solve that, if true.

As for the dragons, they are definitely loose, there's no doubt about that, but not by her choice. That's all I'm saying. I question how she will ever burn Storm's End or Casterly Rock to the ground when she couldn't even burn the Yunkai, out of fear of killing a few innocents. The hypocrisy in that would be readily apparent. Children burn just as easily as Baratheons or Lannisters. Plus, Westeros was really her brother's dream, not hers. She was never as adamant about invasion as Viserys was, so there's that too. Her heart seems to be in the East, and her true home seems to be in Braavos, at the house with the red door, rather than in King's Landing amongst the snakes and spiders.

[lordthade]

Man, I REALLY hope a steam bath and a dinner aren't GRRM's way of rationalizing the prophesy. :thumbsdown:

I'm liking the notion that Jamie (and Cersei, then?) is a closet Targ. Nice. Just don't think he's AA, and would need something more substantial to put the pieces together for me.

I have the same problem that Jon being in a storeroom somehow qualifies, too.

At the moment I'm leaning toward there won't be a clear-cut anything. Just the way these books are put together.

[Black Crow]

It's interesting. Sometimes we dismiss the obvious choice because it is too obvious, and then get surprised when it turns out to be who we initially expected. Dany is the obvious choice. GRRM has made it clear she has a great destiny ahead of her. It was clear in the first book being the only character on the other side of the world whose story would eventually connect with everyone else. Being the unburnt, birthing dragons, and the prophecies in the House of the Undying only fortify that I think she's AA. It fits too well.

As I said before, I think its a double-bluff, in that she is indeed AA. Yes she looks too obvious to be true, but from the outset the assumption has been that the prophecy is neutral in saying that the world is in danger and that AA will save the day, when in fact its the followers of R'hllor, the Lord of Light predicting that their champion will arise and win the final battle against the darkness (and Ice).

What GRRM has said of course is that nothing is as clear cut as it seems and there are plenty of indicators that while Mel and her compatriots are followers of the light there's precious little sweetness to go with it and a glorious victory by AA could turn well out to be a bad thing and that's where I think the double bluff comes in because while everybody is, quite naturally, focussing on the question of who is AA, they're not paying enough attention to the real question of what is AA - really.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

People tend to overlook all of that because of what he did to Bran... but if Bran ends up becoming the Dark Lord in control of the White Walkers, that may not even seem so bad in hindsight.

So trying to murder innocent children to hide one's secrets is okay as long as the murder attempt which crippels them for life causes them to become evil sorcerors which threaten the whole fabric of existence when they grow up? Somehow I don't buy that.

Even though Jaime may be trying to be less of a prick now, that doesn't magically change him into having behaved as "really one of the few true knights". Not that that's necessarily a condition for Azor-Ahaihood.

[lady crackhead]

I find that my reading of the books is extra enjoyable when not giving a fuck about the prophesies. That said, I do like the idea of the least likely scenario. IE, not a 'hero' like Jon or Dany who saves the day, but a morally compromised person. Theon is a good example. This is how it happens in reality; people are complex.

But I dont think Martin will go this route. There is a large segment of readers who live vicariously through the 'heroes' and who will throw tantrums if they feel they were 'cheated' out of the vicarious thrill of being a hero who saves the day.

[iNinja]

I find that my reading of the books is extra enjoyable when not giving a fuck about the prophesies. That said, I do like the idea of the least likely scenario. IE, not a 'hero' like Jon or Dany who saves the day, but a morally compromised person. Theon is a good example. This is how it happens in reality; people are complex.

But I dont think Martin will go this route. There is a large segment of readers who live vicariously through the 'heroes' and who will throw tantrums if they feel they were 'cheated' out of the vicarious thrill of being a hero who saves the day.

I hope no one is AA, its just a myth that never happens. Just like when Rhaegar thought he was AA.

[tearloch]

So trying to murder innocent children to hide one's secrets is okay as long as the murder attempt which crippels them for life causes them to become evil sorcerors which threaten the whole fabric of existence when they grow up? Somehow I don't buy that. Even though Jaime may be trying to be less of a prick now, that doesn't magically change him into having behaved as "really one of the few true knights". Not that that's necessarily a condition for Azor-Ahaihood.

Remember, Azor Ahai killed his own wife in making Lightbringer. I am also in the group that has taken a liking for Jaime over the last few books. I think he has a large role in what is to come.

And on those lines, I was thinking about the Lightbringer stuff. I like the idea of Oathkeeper ending up as Lightbringer. I really like the idea of Jaime plunging Oathkeeper into the chest of Cersei, transforming it into Lightbringer. But that doesn't account for the fire part of it. Maybe it has to do with Catelyn? My mental image of those that were brought back to like with the fire kiss thing as having their insides filled with flames.