1234567 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 About the moontea, I think it was part of some sort of plot. When Cersei informs Margaery about Loras being on his deathbed, Margaery says that she is going to send her own maester to tend him. So my question is, if she has her own maester with her, why does she go to Pycelle for her moontea? Everyone knows that Pycelle is a 100% Lannister man. Could it have been part of some Tyrell plot that went horribly wrong? If Margery is not as sweet and innocent as is made out, despite being constantly surrounded by family and retainers, then the QoT my have made an error in regards to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 @Oba Thanks for clearing that up. I mixed up that Renly and Loras had one plan and Stannis and Jon Arryn were working on another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacharyB Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 The Moon Tea was definitely a Cersei plot. In the epilogue of ADWD, Pycelle says that he would never have spoken of the Moon Tea but the "Queen Dowager" commanded him to. It seems like Cersei just forced him to lie about it. edited to spoiler adwd spoilers. sometimes i forget where I'm posting :frown5: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugger that Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 The Moon Tea was definitely a Cersei plot. In the epilogue of ADWD, Pycelle says that he would never have spoken of the Moon Tea but the "Queen Dowager" commanded him to. It seems like Cersei just forced him to lie about it. Humm... I didn't get that feeling, Cersai didn't ask him: "are you giving her moon tea", and I don't think he came up with that out of the blue.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacharyB Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Humm... I didn't get that feeling, Cersai didn't ask him: "are you giving her moon tea", and I don't think he came up with that out of the blue.... We don't see a lot of what Cersei does in AFFC despite her being a POV character. It's possible that she was bullying Pycelle behind the scenes. The whole Moon Tea thing is implausable. Like someone said above, if Marg has a maester, why would she go to Pycelle? And that's exactly the point. Cersei didn't ask him "Are you giving her moon tea?" so why would she command him to speak of the moon tea if she didn't command him to make it up outright? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemonraven Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I think that Pycelle said that to urge Cersei to go ahead with her plots (that he knew would somehow end up backfiring on her). Pycelle's ability always was to appear weak while he really is cunning, and trough AFFC we always see him as a weak individual just because we are on Cersei's POV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Cake Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Garlan Tyrell seemed an interesting character, someone who seemed to know what was going on but had some compassion - he actually was pleasant to Sansa on her wedding night, and tried to tell her that Tyrion would make her a much better husband than Loras (and in certain respects that is quite true). Not even gonna lie, I love Garlan Tyrell. I'd do him. What I didn't say that last part I don't know what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggydog Stark Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Could it have been part of some Tyrell plot that went horribly wrong? If Margery is not as sweet and innocent as is made out, despite being constantly surrounded by family and retainers, then the QoT my have made an error in regards to her. We don't know if anything went wrong yet. I think Cersei will be royally screwed in Margaery's trial when the whole Tyrell plot comes to fruition. It has to be a public showdown I think.The Moon Tea was definitely a Cersei plot. In the epilogue of ADWD, Pycelle says that he would never have spoken of the Moon Tea but the "Queen Dowager" commanded him to. It seems like Cersei just forced him to lie about it. edited to spoiler adwd spoilers. sometimes i forget where I'm posting :frown5: No.There is a part in a Cersei chapter in AFFC that is specifically about this. Cersei forces Pycelle to confess as to why Margaery was seeking his services. She never coerces him into saying its moontea, but threatens him with reprisals if he does not say what Margaery wants from him. He finally collapses and admits its moontea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Snake No. 9 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 But I too really find it disgusting and morally reprehensible that the Tyrells made Sansa an unwitting accomplice to Joffrey's murder. Hadn't she been through enough? They could just have easily used a younger cousin of Margaery, I think there was a ten-year-old in her retinue, and just made sure the kid wore the hairnet until the Queen of Thorns could take the stone off it. Or just have Olenna herself bring the poison in as a small stone in her hand; why bother with a hairnet which is larger and harder to hide? I think it was LF who made Sansa an accomplice to murder, so she'd be even more dependent on him for protection. Back to unpopular opinions – I think GRRM is imaginative, creative, and clever, especially when writing dialogue. But as a writer, I think he's sloppy and self-indulgent, which is why his "lyrical," character-driven travelogues don't work as well as his plot-driven kill-or-be-killed episodes do. And I want more magic, dammit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 We don't know if anything went wrong yet. I think Cersei will be royally screwed in Margaery's trial when the whole Tyrell plot comes to fruition. It has to be a public showdown I think. Which would explain the Loras "deathbed" exaggeration. The Tyrells weren't to know about Oakheart dying and Cersei getting Ser Robert Strong on her team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggydog Stark Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Which would explain the Loras "deathbed" exaggeration. The Tyrells weren't to know about Oakheart dying and Cersei getting Ser Robert Strong on her team. You know, in the end it doesn't matter if Cersei wins her trial or not if the Tyrells manage to deliver their plot during Margaery's trial. She will be discredited and disgraced yet again. And yet again it will be done publicly. She will probably lose all her power. A council may be called to remove her as Queen Regent because she will be seen as incapable. Anyway, if Maggy the Frog's prophecy is true, her literal death will be at the hands of the Valonqar. Anyway, that's how I expect things to play out :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacharyB Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 We don't know if anything went wrong yet. I think Cersei will be royally screwed in Margaery's trial when the whole Tyrell plot comes to fruition. It has to be a public showdown I think. No.There is a part in a Cersei chapter in AFFC that is specifically about this. Cersei forces Pycelle to confess as to why Margaery was seeking his services. She never coerces him into saying its moontea, but threatens him with reprisals if he does not say what Margaery wants from him. He finally collapses and admits its moontea. I'm aware. And Pycelle was probably lying about the Moon Tea to get Cersei off his back if my original proposition isn't true. Either way, Queen Margy did not go to Pycelle for moon tea. Again, why would Marg go to Pycelle for moon tea and not her own Maester? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 why would Marg go to Pycelle for moon tea and not her own Maester? The only thing I can think of is the her own maester was in the QoT's pocket and Margery or her cousins wanted to conceal that they needed it. Also do nice girls know about Moontea? I can't imagine Sansa's heard of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggydog Stark Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I'm aware. And Pycelle was probably lying about the Moon Tea to get Cersei off his back if my original proposition isn't true. Either way, Queen Margy did not go to Pycelle for moon tea. Again, why would Marg go to Pycelle for moon tea and not her own Maester? Because she, Taena and the QOT are planning something to get rid of Cersei for good. They want Cersei to think that Marg is using moontea, so that Cersei makes a rash move I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggydog Stark Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 No matter how desperate they are for moontea, they would never go to Pycelle. Margaery is too smart for that. They want Pycelle to think that Margaery is having sex. Besides if Marg wanted the tea for herself she would have sent someone else to get it for her. Someone who couldn't be linked to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacharyB Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Because she, Taena and the QOT are planning something to get rid of Cersei for good. They want Cersei to think that Marg is using moontea, so that Cersei makes a rash move I think. Didn't Taena bail after Cersei was imprisoned? But that's the other side of the coin in the argument , I suppose. No matter how desperate they are for moontea, they would never go to Pycelle. Margaery is too smart for that. They want Pycelle to think that Margaery is having sex. Besides if Marg wanted the tea fro herself she would have sent someone else to get it for her. Someone who couldn't be linked to her. Or, of course, Cersei wants everyone to think Margaery is having sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verboten Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I want more magic, dammit. :agree: Is it so much to want this? It's also why I liked Mel as a pov to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggydog Stark Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Didn't Taena bail after Cersei was imprisoned? But that's the other side of the coin in the argument , I suppose. Or, of course, Cersei wants everyone to think Margaery is having sex. Okay here is my theory which I posted on another thread. This is all conjecture of course but the only thing that makes sense to me. I am going to put it in spoiler tags to be safe because I am not certain what parts are AFFC and what are ADWD: I think that the Tyrells want to remove Cersei from power because she is messing up the ambitions of the Tyrells. They want to rule through Tommen and Cersei wants to rule herself. So they need to get rid of her, but how? Margaery is the queen, as much as Cersei hates to admit it, and plotting against Margaery is as treasonous as plotting against the king. I think that Taena is a Tyrell mole. She befriends Cersei by falsely accusing Cersei's maid Senelle of spying on her. She starts to gain Cersei's trust, how Cersei could trust her is beyond me. Taena goes back to the Tyrells and tells them that Cersei is trying to get Osney to sleep with Margaery to accuse her of treason. Margaery plays along buying time. In the meantime the Tyrells befriend Pycelle. Pycelle is either fed up with Cersei and her idiocies and decides to play along or is genuinely not aware and is being played himself by the Tyrells and believes that Margaery needs the tea. Whatever the case, Cersei gets Pycelle to admit he is giving moontea to Margaery. Now Cersei is certain that Margaery is not a maiden and tells Osney to go confess to the High Septon that he has been having relations with Marg. The High Septon arrests Margaery, they do the vaginal test and discover that Margaery's maidenhead is in fact in tact. So now they are willing to listen to Margaery. Margaery tells them how Cersei has been plotting against her. The High Septon believes Margaery since she is a maid and decides to help by playing along. He tortures Osney and gets the whole truth from him. I think everything will come to a head in Margaery's trial. I do not think Cersei's trial is as important as Margaery's This is broadly what I think might happen. I might be wrong but feel free to rip it to shreds. However, whatever you believe, you can't deny there is something fishy about Margaery personally asking for moontea from Pycelle. I mean Pycelle...really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 You know, in the end it doesn't matter if Cersei wins her trial or not if the Tyrells manage to deliver their plot during Margaery's trial. She will be discredited and disgraced yet again. And yet again it will be done publicly. She will probably lose all her power. A council may be called to remove her as Queen Regent because she will be seen as incapable. Already happened at the end of AFFC. The small council named Kevan the Regent, and since then Cersei is officially nobody (in KL, that is; in Casterly Rock she's the head of House Lannister). Now the council needs to appoint new Regent, and I doubt they'll choose Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacharyB Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Taena being a Tyrell mole makes sense, but I don't see why she would flee back to Longtable with her husband if she knew she was safe with the Tyrells. Pycelle being a mole makes sense and I've considered it as well. It's possible that he let the Tyrells know that he caved and lied about giving Margaery moon tea and the QoT decided to spin it to her advantage. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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