R+L=J v.16

[Black Bay]

Why would R+L=J mean that Jon is the rightful heir to the iron throne? wouldn't the fact that he was born out of wedlock mean he is still a bastard and not eligible to be king? In fact wouldn't being a targ. bastard make him a Blackfyre rather than a Snow? There's no real legitimate claim to the throne in that is there?

On what was mentioned earlier about how we'll find out about Jon's parentage, since Howland Reed was the only one to survive the tower of joy other than Ned, wouldn't he be the only person alive to know about the circumstances of Jon's birth? Since he hasn't been introduced yet and the mystery around Jon's parentage remains, I can only assume he will be the source of the revelation once his character comes into the story. while it's possible Bran could make the discovery in the way described above, but Howland Reed's introduction has to hold some significance and what bigger than that?

I'm fairly certain everything I just said will be immediately discredited, it almost always is one here. You guys know everything about these books! Please enlighten me!

Darn! guy above me just said the same thing!

[ARYa_Nym]

Many believe that Rhaegar also married Lyanna. If he wanted to fulfill the PWWP prophecy the child couldn't be born a bastard.

He possibly hid with Lyanna at the TOJ so that the marriage couldn't be set aside.

There were 3 KG members there including the commander. This is unusual for a prince's mistress and her bastard. When Aerys and Rhaegar died they were supposed to be with their king Viserys and not at the TOJ.

[kissdbyfire]

Rhaegar may have wed Lyanna in secret (polygamy or putting Elia aside because she had become barren). In which case Jon woundn't be a bastard.

And... this may sound stupid, but I haven't been able to figure it out. There's still 'the document' Robb signs in front of witnessess. Sure, we don't know what's in it, but I assume it's a 'royal decree' legitimising Jon and/or making him Robb's heir. So, let's assume Rhaegar never married Lyanna and Jon was born out of wedlock, he is a bastard. And much later, we have Robb's document. Would that document legitimise Jon or just name him Robb's heir? Or both?

[Dragonfish]

Why would R+L=J mean that Jon is the rightful heir to the iron throne? wouldn't the fact that he was born out of wedlock mean he is still a bastard and not eligible to be king?

Some believe that Rhaegar married Lyanna, using the polygamy precedent as justification.

In fact wouldn't being a targ. bastard make him a Blackfyre rather than a Snow?

No, Blackfyre is not the name given to all Targ bastards, it was the name given to a specific Targ bastard, Daemon, who had been gifted the sword Blackfyre by his father, Aegon IV. All of Daemon's descendants have the name as well, but other Targ bastards will have typical bastard names like Rivers or Waters, depending on the region.

On what was mentioned earlier about how we'll find out about Jon's parentage, since Howland Reed was the only one to survive the tower of joy other than Ned, wouldn't he be the only person alive to know about the circumstances of Jon's birth?

According to Ned's memories, more than one person found him with Lyanna, so it's doubtful that only Howland knows.

[Dragonfish]

And... this may sound stupid, but I haven't been able to figure it out. There's still 'the document' Robb signs in front of witnessess. Sure, we don't know what's in it, but I assume it's a 'royal decree' legitimising Jon and/or making him Robb's heir. So, let's assume Rhaegar never married Lyanna and Jon was born out of wedlock, he is a bastard. And much later, we have Robb's document. Would that document legitimise Jon or just name him Robb's heir? Or both?

Presumably Jon had to be legitimized in order to be named Robb's heir. However, since only a king can legitimize a bastard, the decree itself would only be considered valid by those who believe Robb is their king. Those who follow Tommen, for example, will simply consider it a worthless decree from a rebel lord.

[Dragonfish]

I've always interpreted that prophecy to mean "of Aegon's" line, and I've given an explanation based on the text in other threads.

Interesting. Would you mind giving a link to one of the other threads, or giving a brief synopsis of the argument?

However, wasn't he "The Unlikely," so he didn't have any living siblngs or first cousins with dragon blood, and his descendants are pretty well docmented. At the time of Robert's rebellion, only Aerys, his sister/wife, and their children/grandchildren remained, correct?

Well, at the time Aegon V came to power, he still had two sisters and two cousins. One of those cousins was the feeble-witted daughter of his brother Daeron, and the other was the son of his brother Aerion. We don't know if any of them reproduced. It's also not clear exactly how many children Aegon had, but we do know he had one daughter (who became Robert's grandmother) and three sons: Duncan, Jaehaerys, and an unnamed third son. We know that Duncan died at Summerhall, and it's possible that the third son died there as well, though offhand I don't recall if the books tell us this explicitly.

But he was 'The Unlikely' because he was king even though he was the fourth son of a third son, or something like that, right?

Fourth son of a fourth son.

[Lady of Long Lake]

wait, i think i'm missing something here.

if Rhaegar was lawfully wed to Elia Martell, and Jon is his son with Lyanna, wouldn't that make Jon still a bastard? can a bastard be an heir?

A bastard wouldn't, unless he was legitimized by the King. But don't forget the Targs strongly practiced polygamy throughout their history. One big clue about R+L marital status is that the Kingsguard were there at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna. By law, they only guard the royal heirs and family. The Targs were in power and they could only guard a Targ. They wouldn't have been guarding a mistress and her bastard.

[Alia of the knife]

Gods be good, I have no recollection whatsoever of any of this with Robert's father! In which book is it mentioned, do you know?

I want to say COK, I think?

I'll get on it, and check back with you :)

[Alia of the knife]

I don't believe in the "Rhaegar wanted a spare" theory because I think he was expecting a girl to be his 3rd child, and he'd name her Visenya. He was so obsessed with the prophecy that the thought of Aegon dying before furfill it never crossed his mind.

Well, I think it's two-fold.

I think he was basing a lot on prophesy, but certainly finding out his wife was now barren, gave him the political arguement he would need if he had won the day, and the subject of Lyanna would most certainly come up.

And I do think they all were realstic enough understand that children die.

He would have to convince the Lords of the Realm that he needed to do what he did to keep the line secure, but if he started with apocolyptic talk and prophesy, they most certainly would have thought him mad, especially since they were becoming cynical about the Wall.

It would be enough that he would also have to NOT insult them, because he didn't pick a female from THEIR houses, (i.e. Tywin Lannister), so again, I think Rhaegar knew what he could say, and not say.

[Alia of the knife]

Gods be good, I have no recollection whatsoever of any of this with Robert's father! In which book is it mentioned, do you know?

Found it.

It's actually in the prologue of COK, when they brought back creepy Patchface from across the Narrow Sea, and Steffons ship sank.

"The King- the old King, Aerys II Targaryen, who had not been quite so mad in those days- had sent his Lordship, (Steffan Berantheon), to seek a bride for Prince Rhaegar, who had no sisters to wed."

I guess it was one of many fruitless missions beyond Westeros.

[ARYa_Nym]

Either way he wanted another child for the prophecy. When we learned that Rhaegar wanted a third head this was at Aegon's birth so it was before he ran off with Lyanna. We don't know if he changed his mind again on who the PWWP would be. Aemon changed his mind right before he died so it's possible. At the time of Dany's vision though I think he was expecting a Visenya.

[Galen M]

Interesting. Would you mind giving a link to one of the other threads, or giving a brief synopsis of the argument?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/55802-adwd-spoilerstragedy-of-summerhall/

Start at post #6. The crux of the theory is that when Barristan said to Dany "your grandsire," he meant Aegon, and it was a mistake made by either Barristan or GRRM, since Aegon as the King and head of House Targaryen is more likely than Jaehaerys to have arranged the marriage.

[Dragonfish]

http://asoiaf.wester...-of-summerhall/

Start at post #6. The crux of the theory is that when Barristan said to Dany "your grandsire," he meant Aegon, and it was a mistake made by either Barristan or GRRM, since Aegon as the King and head of House Targaryen is more likely than Jaehaerys to have arranged the marriage.

Well, all that means is that there is some debate over who ordered the marriage. But there isn't really any debate over the fact that the woodswitch said the PWWP would be born specifically from Aerys and Rhaella's line, is there?

[Galen M]

Well, all that means is that there is some debate over who ordered the marriage. But there isn't really any debate over the fact that the woodswitch said the PWWP would be born specifically from Aerys and Rhaella's line, is there?

Ah, I suppose not, here is the relevant quote:

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."

Although, that is still odd phrasing. It reminds of "Born to those who thrice defied him," but it makes little sense to specifically refer to two people who are not wed and would not have even considered wedding otherwise.

ETA: This doesn't explain why Mel interprets it to allow that Stannis could be TPTWP

[kissdbyfire]

He would have to convince the Lords of the Realm that he needed to do what he did to keep the line secure, but if he started with apocolyptic talk and prophesy, they most certainly would have thought him mad, especially since they were becoming cynical about the Wall.

And they would perhaps be a bit wary of mad Targaryens.

[kissdbyfire]

Found it.

It's actually in the prologue of COK, when they brought back creepy Patchface from across the Narrow Sea, and Steffons ship sank.

"The King- the old King, Aerys II Targaryen, who had not been quite so mad in those days- had sent his Lordship, (Steffan Berantheon), to seek a bride for Prince Rhaegar, who had no sisters to wed."

I guess it was one of many fruitless missions beyond Westeros.

Thank you very much!

[Dragonfish]

ETA: This doesn't explain why Mel interprets it to allow that Stannis could be TPTWP

I think it was the woods witch herself who was the prophesier. The prophecy came straight from her, and not one of the prophecies written down in the books that Rhaegar read. I doubt Melisandre is even aware of it.

[Werthead]

Sean Bean may have inadvertantly answered the question to the mystery in this interview.

Caution should be exercised before viewing the interview, if you'd prefer to get the answer in the books instead :)

Why would Sean Bean know? I understand that GRRM offered to tell Kit Harington the truth about Jon Snow's heritage if he was interested, but Harington turned him down since Jon doesn't know the truth, so he shouldn't either (at least before filming of Season 1). It makes sense that they would tell Sean Bean the truth so he could factor that into his performance of Ned in certain scenes.

It's not 100% - you can kind of argue he doesn't commit to a particular position - but his wording is highly suggestive of an answer.

[kephv]

I think he may have just been going off what the guy said in the question above. A sort of what if situation. Or maybe he does know.

As for Kit, I know he said in an interview that he's heard the fan theories, so even if Martin hasn't told him, I'm pretty sure he's figured it out himself (he's also read the books).

[Alia of the knife]

Thank you very much!

Your welcome :)