R+L=J v.16

[Cydal]

I tend to agree with the R+L=J Theories, but I've always wondered about this one problem: Are not the Targaryens all blonde haired and blue eyed? Not really Jon's description.

We also have examples of Houses marrying and the kids having only the features of one house. All the Stark kids except Arya look Tully. All the Baratheon kids and bastards look only Baratheon. It's possibly Stark features is stronger than Targ. And coincidentally, we have no examples of previous Targ/Stark bondings to compare and contrast with.

[The GRRumbler]

I really think it doesnt matter after you know, book 5.

And i believe the way the autor loves to get every little bit of romanticized point of view about chivalry and stuff like that and twist it and depict it in his books in the most gruesome way, i belie that if r+l=j than it was rape, not consensual.

And i have my own crazy, crackpot theory, what if, Robert and Lyanna actually liked it each other and didn't waint until marriage? Maybe she was already pregnant when Rhaegar kdnapped her. You know, just crazy, wild, speculation here.

[stonygirl]

Maybe it is just for the reader to know. Maybe Jon will never find out who his mother is.

[1234567]

Okay I am not looking through 16 threads to see if this has been mentioned already, but it concerns a couple of lines that I thought sounded weird and maybe foreshadowing. In ASOS in Tyrion's chapter on the day of Joff's wedding he mentions the three hundred years since Aegon invaded and makes the toast to Aegon, with his two sisters, two wives and three dragons. Now if Jon's real name were Aegon, then apart from the wives thing (so far) this fits him perfectly because he considers Sansa and Arya sister.

[Cydal]

Maybe it is just for the reader to know. Maybe Jon will never find out who his mother is.

That would seriously suck. That is another reason why he can't be dead.

[Ser Lepus]

Um...I think I´ve remembered something important:

"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder.

"Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."

Jon trembled. "I will never father a bastard," he said carefully. "Never!" He spat it out like venom.

Am I crazy, or does it suggest that Benjen fell in love, sired a bastard or more than one, but couldn´t marry the mother because he was already part of the Night Watch (he may even have sired them before becoming part of the Watch, and have learned of it later...).

And he seems to like Jon a lot, and he says that he would like him to be his son...

And Eddard accepted far too easily and far too soon to send Jon to the Wall when Luwin said this:

His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. "Another solution presents itself," he said, his voice quiet. "Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black."

Maybe he doesn´t really loves Jon as much as he pretends (there were other options; he could have been sent to squire to White Harbor for a knight under the care of Lord Manderly, or to spend some time with the Karstarks or the Umbers or the Glovers or some other important bannerman, or on a tour by the Free Cities,...etc.)...or maybe the will of Benjen carry a special weight in this matter...

After all, right them Catelyn herself thought:

Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have.

Could it be that Eddard was covering the dishonor of one of his brothers with his own? Many lords have bastards, after all, and it´s no biggie, but if a Stark had broken his vows as a sworn brother and sired a child,...that would have been some serious stain (Ned herself executes those who break their vows and try to leave, after all...).

Previously I mused Jon could have been the children of his older brother Brandon and Lady Ashara Dayne (we know Brandon had sex with many noble ladies, and an affair with Ashara is hinted) and was covering his deceased brother (it seems Catelyn was in love with Brandon when he was still his fiancé, but he sleeped around a lot...maybe Eddard thought Catelyn would hate Jon equally if she knew he was Brandon´s, but that she wouldn´t dare to ask him to send the kid elsewhere if she believed he was Eddard´s), but now I like Benjen as a posible father of Jon better...

[Dragonfish]

Jon was born before Benjen took the Black, so it's impossible for Benjen to have sired him while he was a member of the Night's Watch. It's also highly unlikely that he sired him before he joined the Watch, as Ned came back from the South with Jon, while Benjen was in Winterfell for the duration of the war. In other words, whoever Benjen sired Jon with would have to have been in the South when Ned found her and Jon, which would be a strange and contrived scenario. Besides, if Benjen did father Jon before he joined the Watch, then there's no reason why he wouldn't just acknowledge Jon as his own, rather than getting his brother to cover for him.

[Ser Lepus]

Jon was born before Benjen took the Black, so it's impossible for Benjen to have sired him while he was a member of the Night's Watch. It's also highly unlikely that he sired him before he joined the Watch, as Ned came back from the South with Jon, while Benjen was in Winterfell for the duration of the war. In other words, whoever Benjen sired Jon with would have to have been in the South when Ned found her and Jon, which would be a strange and contrived scenario. Besides, if Benjen did father Jon before he joined the Watch, then there's no reason why he wouldn't just acknowledge Jon as his own, rather than getting his brother to cover for him.

When did Benjen exactly took the black? It would have been really strange to do so after the death of his father and brother, unless he did it after Eddard already had a couple healthy males (the heir and the spare). If Benjen had taken the black while Eddard was the only adult male Stark and with only one male heir, that would put the Stark family in a potentially dangerous position (what if Eddard dies and his son does so? in those times it was an unusual ocurrence for a disease to take several members of the same family).

[Azor Ahai Reborn]

My guess is that the Aegon in Essos is probably "the mummer's dragon." My guess is that he is Illyrio M's son (Illyrio's beloved wife has the blond hair and purple eyes and my guess would explains why Illyrio seems to dote on the boy and is doing so much for him) rather than an actual Targaryon.

This makes a lot of sense actually.

One of my biggest unanswered questions through the series has always been the motivations of Illyrio and Varys. Why do they seem so determined to resurrect a Targaryen dynasty? In ADWD we learn about the close bond between Illyrio and Varys, and the two have obviously been working together for a long time. The question though is why is Illyrio so concerned with the Iron Throne? Its a question that Tyrion asks him as well, but doesn't really get a persuasive enough answer, just some talk of how Illyrio could potentially become master of coin in King's Landing under a Targaryen ruler.

If the Aegon with Connington is actually Illyrio's secret son, then it answers a lot of questions regarding Illyrio's interest in the rule of Westeros. Varys being his childhood friend is only naturally going to want to work alongside him too. Imagine if the two of them successfully manage to get the son of a Pentoshi cheese merchant to sit the Iron Throne and rule the Seven Kingdoms?! It is called the 'Game' of Thrones after all.

[Dragonfish]

When did Benjen exactly took the black?

Here's what George has said:

"This one is probably trivial, but when did Benjen join the Watch? Right after the war against the Targaryens, more or less?

Pretty much, yes. Probably around about the time Ned returned from the south and Catelyn and Robb and Jon took up residence."

I believe there's another SSM where George specifies that Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the war. I haven't found a link to that yet, but the text of it was posted in the "When/Why did Benjen Stark take the Black?" thread.

ETA--Here it is:

"6) When, specifically, did Benjen join the NW? Was it a couple of years after Ned returned, or immediately?

It was within a few months of Ned's returning. The reason being that there always was a Stark at Winterfell, so he had to stay there until Ned returned. GRRM refused to say the reason why Benjen had to join the NW."

[Ser Lepus]

When did Benjen exactly took the black? It would have been really strange to do so after the death of his father and brother, unless he did it after Eddard already had a couple healthy males (the heir and the spare). If Benjen had taken the black while Eddard was the only adult male Stark and with only one male heir, that would put the Stark family in a potentially dangerous position (what if Eddard dies and his son does so? in those times it was an unusual ocurrence for a disease to take several members of the same family).

No need to answer. SSM says he took the black when Ned came back to Winterfell after the war.

[zmandacorrupt]

I only recently finished the books and joined this forum, but one thing is clear to me: Martin may be a great writer, but the man is a troll. He knows of the theory, he won't let it happen, who cares about the heaps of implications and expectations of the fans? He'll just never tell us because he can.

[kissdbyfire]

I only recently finished the books and joined this forum, but one thing is clear to me: Martin may be a great writer, but the man is a troll. He knows of the theory, he won't let it happen, who cares about the heaps of implications and expectations of the fans? He'll just never tell us because he can.

May I ask why you say this? As in, based on what do you say he is a troll and won't let it happen?

[zmandacorrupt]

May I ask why you say this? As in, based on what do you say he is a troll and won't let it happen?

It's his thing, he needs to be unpredictable, otherwise it's just another fantasy series. Note that this is just my two cents, I could be wrong.

[Fatmo]

I finished the books a few months ago, and have borrowed the audiobook of AGOT from a friend. I guess you could say that this is serving as my reread, as I am trying to pick up on things I may have missed out on or not realized the importance/significance of the first time around.

on listening to the Eddard chapter when he gets to KL, sits in on his first Small Console meeting, and goes with LF to the brothel to meet Catelyn, I did pick up on something that seems like another little clue as to R + L = J. I don't know if this has been mentioned or talked about here, but I have not come across it yet here. I may have left a couple of details out and things like that, but I'm hoping one of you more die hard conspiracy theorists will dig up this passage and put it up here for people to digest and discuss.

When Ned, Cat, and LF are talking alone in that room in the brothel, Cat tells Ned the whole story about the attempt on Bran's life and how his Direwolf had saved him. This sets Ned off and he starts going on kind of a thinking tangent. One of his thoughts went along the lines of "If I find out the Lannisters or the Queen have anything to do this, or Seven be damned the King himself . . . " He also recalls about how Robert was talking about putting out a hit on Dany; and how he just turned away when the battered corpse of young Aegon was presented to him, and how similar it was more recently when the Queen basically ordered the execution of Lady, Sansa's wolf. He also feels even more terrible about what he allowed to happen to Lady, now knowing how significant those wolves are to his children.

After this series of thoughts, he remembers Sansa's crying and pleading. I'm pretty sure I remember this exact quote. "He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had once."

This seems pretty big to me, considering the context that it's in. I can see that meaning that after the battle outside the TOJ, Ned found Lyanna there, presumably with Jon. I can see her pleading with Ned to not let Robert know about Jon because she knew the kind of person that Robert was and what would probably happen to little Jon. I don't think it's a coincidence that Ned thinks about Robert's seemingly lax attitude to the murdering of children (Dany, Aegon) or innocent creatures that are loved by people close to him (Lady) and then puts it together with whatever his promise to Lyanna was.

In fact, if I recall the timing of events at the end of Robert's rebellion, everyone at the TOJ knew what had happened to Rhegar's children at KL, and Lyanna would have been petrified at the thought of Robert finding about about Jon, and that Ned's promise to here was indeed that he would do everything he could to ensure that Jon's identity would be kept a secret. She also would have known how close Ned was to Robert, and that Ned would probably have a hard time keeping something like this from him.

She would have pleaded with Ned for the sake of saving Jon, just as Sansa had pleaded for Lady to be spared. They both wanted to save something or someone they loved dearly.

Just my two cents, and I thought that this passage was interesting when it comes to this thread. I happen to think that R + L = J is true, but I don't really worry too much about it. Martin has something in store, and the fun part about this series is that he leaves so much to speculate about.

What do you think of this connection?

[Alia of the knife]

It's his thing, he needs to be unpredictable, otherwise it's just another fantasy series. Note that this is just my two cents, I could be wrong.

IMHO, I think as a good writer, Martin is not going to do anything just for the sake of doing something "unpredictable," or else that unpredictability then becomes cliche' in itself, and just annoying.

As I've said before, I don't think there is a "buggaboo" behind everything that he writes- some things are what he says they are, like Ashara Dayne could have just given birth to a stillborn girl, and did kill TRY to herself because it was all too much, (whether her attempt was successful is a different story which could leave the door open for her being alive, or her attempt was a cover, but the baby could have still been a girl).

Why would that be clarified by Selmy? Because as a tool, it now takes one more candidate out of the running for Jons Mother. A few red herrings like that theory which has been around for years, has now been resolved.

Jon being Neds bastard, or finding out the three-eyed crow is Bloodraven, are just enough twists.

Martin has said, (paraphrasing), that while the internet is a great tool, it can be a detriment to the other readers. It used to be (before the internet), if one guessed the mystery, well congratulations to the "ONE", but now, it potentially ruins it for everyone else.

However, Martin is not going to change HIS story because someone did guess correctly, and he isn't going to change it, because some don't like the idea of R+L=J.

(Apparently the creators of the HBO series did guess, and Martin was quite pleased).

There has to be something that makes Jon "special" beyond he's a Stark for the storyline to work, and he has to be a "potent" combination of power. So, Blood of the Dragon+the Starks own mysterious warging, or psychic powers=the necessary ingredients to possibly control the Dragons beyond sorcery, which has been lost to the Targaryens. I mean, it remains to be seen if Dany can control them, short of handraising them from babies, whereas the Starks have a connection to their direwolves. (Of course getting inside a Dragons head may not be the easiest thing either).

Also, the casual fan of ASOIAF does NOT catch on to the theory, but even so, the telling of the story will still be interesting, because he is a good story teller.

If Martin starts doing things "just because he can" then he risks going from being the next Tolkein to the next Jackie Collins.

Just my two cents as well. :)

[Cydal]

IMHO, I think as a good writer, Martin is not going to do anything just for the sake of doing something "unpredictable," or else that unpredictability then becomes cliche' in itself, and just annoying.

As I've said before, I don't think there is a "buggaboo" behind everything that he writes- some things are what he says they are, like Ashara Dayne could have just given birth to a stillborn girl, and did kill TRY to herself because it was all too much, (whether her attempt was successful is a different story which could leave the door open for her being alive, or her attempt was a cover, but the baby could have still been a girl).

Why would that be clarified by Selmy? Because as a tool, it now takes one more candidate out of the running for Jons Mother. A few red herrings like that theory which has been around for years, has now been resolved.

Jon being Neds bastard, or finding out the three-eyed crow is Bloodraven, are just enough twists.

Martin has said, (paraphrasing), that while the internet is a great tool, it can be a detriment to the other readers. It used to be (before the internet), if one guessed the mystery, well congratulations to the "ONE", but now, it potentially ruins it for everyone else.

However, Martin is not going to change HIS story because someone did guess correctly, and he isn't going to change it, because some don't like the idea of R+L=J.

(Apparently the creators of the HBO series did guess, and Martin was quite pleased).

There has to be something that makes Jon "special" beyond he's a Stark for the storyline to work, and he has to be a "potent" combination of power. So, Blood of the Dragon+the Starks own mysterious warging, or psychic powers=the necessary ingredients to possibly control the Dragons beyond sorcery, which has been lost to the Targaryens. I mean, it remains to be seen if Dany can control them, short of handraising them from babies, whereas the Starks have a connection to their direwolves. (Of course getting inside a Dragons head may not be the easiest thing either).

Also, the casual fan of ASOIAF does NOT catch on to the theory, but even so, the telling of the story will still be interesting, because he is a good story teller.

If Martin starts doing things "just because he can" then he risks going from being the next Tolkein to the next Jackie Collins.

Just my two cents as well. :)

Well said, Martin has never truly been concerned about "surprising" his readers, Take the Red Wedding, Robb's death was foreshadowed long before it happened but he told it so well that people were still surprised and bewildered (Myself included) even though I knew, I knew long before it happened that it would. R + L = J is going to come down to his delivery of itand we know he's good at that. The same way The Red Wedding as a delivery tool was.

[kissdbyfire]

Note that this is just my two cents, I could be wrong.

I think you are.

:-)

[Dragonfish]

Fatmo--

That quote has been mentioned before, but good catch all the same. I personally take it as a clue to R+L=J. The comparison between Sansa's pleading for Lady to Lyanna's pleading is just too eyebrow-raising to ignore.

[LadyMary]

@Lady Mary You're right, I suppose I don't really mean obvious. I mean it's the most supported amongst fans.........perhaps I'm just in denial about it all because as I said, I can't see how the reveal (if it ever comes) will have any potency now.

Well, I agree that if Jon is

dead-for-real

, the revelation is less potent and more frustrating for those of us who are waiting to see how or if the revelation changes things for him or the balance of power. It seems a waste to make Jon's parentage a big mystery and then have it come down to an interesting footnote. Personally, I'm one of the fans who thinks that kind of "unpredictable" twist would be a detriment to the overall story. That said, I don't believe that Jon is

dead-for-real

so I'm hoping that the revelation will have some relevance to what transpires as his story progresses.