R+L=J v.16

[CJS 2207]

Hello Folks,

Long time reader first time poster (hell I just registered recently =D ).

A lot of interesting theories. I personally picked up on the R+L=J theory a little bit slower than I wanted to but I didn't have enough on the table to convince myself initially. Something about Jon being a bastard and how honorable Ned was didn't add up.

The scene with Ned and the Tower of Joy was all I needed until I could be proven wrong. The thing that really did it for me was the "Prince that was promised" and Ned promised Lyanna as far as I am concerned Jon is the prince that was promised. Anyways that's my insane evidence that I am throwing into the fire.

Another theory someone brought up was Jon could be "the great other" based on Mel's vision of Jon and skulls around him.

1) I agree about the ToJ scenes in Ned's flashbacks being the tell-tale signs that put me on the scent to R + L = J. In my mind, it had to be more than Ned promising to bring his sister's bones back to repose in Winterfell, especially since he returned from Dorne with Jon.

2) Interesting theory regarding Jon and the "Great Other". I recall Melisandre's chapter with her visions of the skulls surrounding Jon, but I thought it had more to do with the specter of danger/death stalking him than anything else.

[The GRRumbler]

Just to add a different perspective, according to Aemon's memories in AFFC, Rhaegar actually believed his son Aegon to be the PTWP, so i don't think the whole R+L=J thing would be true in this case because there will be no motivation for his actions.

[Dirty Mike]

Just to add a different perspective, according to Aemon's memories in AFFC, Rhaegar actually believed his son Aegon to be the PTWP, so i don't think the whole R+L=J thing would be true in this case because there will be no motivation for his actions.

the thought is that Rhaegar changed his mind deciding that Aegon did not fulfill the PTWP as he was all fire

[Dragonfish]

Just to add a different perspective, according to Aemon's memories in AFFC, Rhaegar actually believed his son Aegon to be the PTWP, so i don't think the whole R+L=J thing would be true in this case because there will be no motivation for his actions.

According to Rhaegar himself (in Dany's vision in the House of the Undying), he still needed one more "head of the dragon" even after Aegon was born. Since Elia could not provide him any more children, he had to look elsewhere to find a different mother for his third child. Presumably he settled on Lyanna, as he had already met her at Harrenhal. So I'm sorry, but Rhaegar did have a motivation for his actions.

[Serie]

According to Rhaegar himself (in Dany's vision in the House of the Undying), he still needed one more "head of the dragon" even after Aegon was born. Since Elia could not provide him any more children, he had to look elsewhere to find a different mother for his third child. Presumably he settled on Lyanna, as he had already met her at Harrenhal. So I'm sorry, but Rhaegar did have a motivation for his actions.

Motivation there was but did he do it because of it?

[edit: yes it is more like a rhetorical question, we will have to wait, and even worse maybe this part will stay in the dark forever....]

[keog]

As a newb (though devoted, as evinced by my reading this entire thread), do we have any volunteers to establish a timeline dating from Harrenhall Tournament to roughly the time Ned and company arrive at TOJ for rescue(?) with regard to main characters involved?

I'm confused as to when Lyanna and Rhaegar could have had a tryst to begin with.

As an aside, my first thought at Ned's remembrance of Lyanna in a bloody bed made me think of suicide. I suppose it's still possible. Over guilt from perceived responsibilty for brother and fathers' death, baby or not. Maybe a "Ned, promise me you will raise him as your own! I can't live with the guilt (or maybe loss of Rhaegar?!), etc." Likewise, maybe Benjen's collusion/knowledge, etc of his sisters plan and ultimate catastrophes, forced him to the Wall (away from guilt, dishonor, prying questions of concerned party's).

Like someone said, not that any of this changes the result. Just some extra flavor to the meal.

[Jem]

As a newb (though devoted, as evinced by my reading this entire thread), do we have any volunteers to establish a timeline dating from Harrenhall Tournament to roughly the time Ned and company arrive at TOJ for rescue(?) with regard to main characters involved?

I'm confused as to when Lyanna and Rhaegar could have had a tryst to begin with.

As an aside, my first thought at Ned's remembrance of Lyanna in a bloody bed made me think of suicide. I suppose it's still possible. Over guilt from perceived responsibilty for brother and fathers' death, baby or not. Maybe a "Ned, promise me you will raise him as your own! I can't live with the guilt (or maybe loss of Rhaegar?!), etc." Likewise, maybe Benjen's collusion/knowledge, etc of his sisters plan and ultimate catastrophes, forced him to the Wall (away from guilt, dishonor, prying questions of concerned party's).

Like someone said, not that any of this changes the result. Just some extra flavor to the meal.

The timelines are very fuzzy, though a few people have done up approximate/estimated timelines, so if you do a search you might find some.

Roughly, the Rebellion lasted about a year and GRRM has said that the tourney at Harrenhal was a year or two before that, though it is usually considered to be at the lesser end of that, ie about a year. So you have Harrenhal and about a year passes and then you have the start of the Rebellion and then another year passes and then the Rebellion ends. Ned and Co are estimated to have arrived at the ToJ about 4-8 weeks after the end of the Rebellion.

Assuming, as it seems likely, that Lyanna was dying of complications relating to childbirth when Ned arrives, Lyanna wasn't pregnant until at least 4 months or so into the war. Lyanna and Rhaegar seemed to have had a flirtation at Harrenhal, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that they had a 'tryst' before he ran off with her a year or so later.

[kg1982]

Kind of an amazing conclusion if you ask me. Just what did Rhaegar have to do with the rise of the Others as a threat to humanity? These are beings who have not been seen for thousands of years, but Rhaegar somehow created the situation North of the Wall where they return and pose a threat some fourteen to fifteen years after his death? Just how does that work? How does running off with Lyanna or abducting her have anything to do with that? The need for the Prince that was promised to come again seems all bound up in the rise of the Others, and their existence, or the timing of their proliferation North of the Wall, can't be reasonably tied to anything Rhaegar did or did not do.

There's a huge magic Wall to protect Westros from the Others. With a stable political environment and the Starks in the North, then there would be no need for a war to end all wars against the Others. Rhaegar got the whole ball rolling with the political instability by running off with a high lord's daughter. He was that obsessed with fire and ice that he forgot about the political implications of his decision.

I also don't think either Lyanna or Rhaegar would have run off thinking there would be no consequences. No consequences, doesn't, however, mean anticipation of, or responsibility for, other people's rash or insane actions.

Rhaegar was a politician; it was his job to understand to others' rash decisions so he doesn't get a pass. Also, both Rhaegar and Lyanna decided to run off together in a rash decision. Lyanna was 15, so she gets a pass on her rash decisions. Rhaegar was in his mid-20s and is the crown prince; he does not get a pass on his rash decisions. As Crown Prince and the great hope of Westros, I sure hope he was schooled in politics 101 and how one should not just run off with a high lord's daughter. There was going to be a tense diplomatic standard and outrage over the situation. Why Rhaegar, the great and just, was willing to put himself in that position is beyond me.

It is not just Lady Dustin's quote that talks about the maester's conspiracy. We are introduced to the idea by Archmaester Marwyn, who might just have some inside knowledge of the political leanings of the people he calls the "grey sheep." Lady Dustin only helps to confirm its existence and by doing so helps to lend credence to her own claims of southern ambitions on the part of Lord Stark. I don't think the conspiracy is necessarily a "bad thing" in an of itself. Kind of partial to a scientific view of the world myself, but in a world were dragons and ice demons bent on killing all humanity are real, then one has to question the conspiracy's helpfulness.

There is two different things going on here.. 1. Lady Dustin's claim that Lord Rickard was basically trying to overthrow the Targaryens. I find it suspect because Lady Dustin is a bitter ex girlfriend who was hoping to use sex to become Lady Stark. 2. The maesters' conspiracy, which I think was true and well intentioned. I don't think that depriving the crazy inbred ruling family of absolute power and setting up a more feudal system was a bad thing. However, they didn't consider the alien invaders that were myths and legends.

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

As a newb (though devoted, as evinced by my reading this entire thread), do we have any volunteers to establish a timeline dating from Harrenhall Tournament to roughly the time Ned and company arrive at TOJ for rescue(?) with regard to main characters involved?

I'm confused as to when Lyanna and Rhaegar could have had a tryst to begin with.

Like someone said, not that any of this changes the result. Just some extra flavor to the meal.

Do not read if you don't want ASOS or AFFC spoilers:

As I do not have ASOS directly in front of me right now, I cannot claim to be 100% sure, however, I am fairly certain that in one of Jaime's POV chapter in that book (or maybe AFFC), he thinks to himself that he was raised to the KG at 15 years old. He feels pride at this, as he was, I believe, the youngest ever. In ASOS (again, I think) Meera and Jojen tell Bran the story of the tourney of Harrenhal, and although that's not the main point of their story, I think we learn how Jaime was knighted there. Lastly, we know from AGOT that during the Sack of KL, Jaime was 17. This is directly from King Robert's lips in one of Ned's chapters.

So, the point is that Tourney of Harrenhal to end of Robert's Rebellion = approx. 2 years....

[ARYa_Nym]

We know too little about the Others.

The war went in their favor until the two sides reached a peace agreement, called the Pact, on the Isle of Faces. The First Men gave dominion over the forests to the children and promised not to cut down any more weirwood trees. In return, they received claim to the rest of the Westeros.^[2]

The Pact began 4,000 years of friendship between the two peoples. The First Men set aside their religion to worship the children's nature gods. When the Others began to invade from the far north of Westeros, the First Men and the children joined forces in the War for the Dawn.

Ned was the warden of the North and didn't even believe in them.

"You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one."

That's not to say that Rhaegar should not be blamed for having a huge part to play in Robert's Rebellion. Robert's reign was peaceful but no one cared about the Wall then. I don't think that Jon is the PWWP anyway if this person is supposed to be responsible for the return of dragons. Rhaegar still was probably right about him being one of the heads of the dragon though.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

As a newb (though devoted, as evinced by my reading this entire thread), do we have any volunteers to establish a timeline dating from Harrenhall Tournament to roughly the time Ned and company arrive at TOJ for rescue(?) with regard to main characters involved?

I'm confused as to when Lyanna and Rhaegar could have had a tryst to begin with.

As an aside, my first thought at Ned's remembrance of Lyanna in a bloody bed made me think of suicide. I suppose it's still possible. Over guilt from perceived responsibilty for brother and fathers' death, baby or not. Maybe a "Ned, promise me you will raise him as your own! I can't live with the guilt (or maybe loss of Rhaegar?!), etc." Likewise, maybe Benjen's collusion/knowledge, etc of his sisters plan and ultimate catastrophes, forced him to the Wall (away from guilt, dishonor, prying questions of concerned party's).

Like someone said, not that any of this changes the result. Just some extra flavor to the meal.

The Harrenhal tournament supposedly took place a year-ish (maybe less than a year?) before the war started. The war itself last "about a year" (I think most people accept 10-12 months), and Jon was born about a month after the sack of King's Landing. Daenerys was born about nine months after the sack.

For me, the overall point there is that Jon couldn't have been conceived at Harrenhal or at any time immediately after it.

[Suriccaio Suriccata]

Anyone thought about R+L=Jon AND Meera? Howland Reed was a very good friend of Lyanna. Howland was saved from bullies squires by Lyanna, on the tournament that she was the mistery knight. Lyanna died in birth labour, which indicates a troubled pregnancy. She could had twins and they split them, in order to protect their identity, since Robert's wanted all Targs dead.

They were born in the same year, Meera is much similar to Lyanna(warrior like, inteligent, sweet, dark hair, green eyes) and to Jon. Also, if this is true, Melisandre's prophecy that Jon's sister was arriving at Castle Black hurt, can be totally true, not a fake prophecy as Alys Karstark coming. We don't know how Meera is getting back from Three Eyed Crow's Lair, but she must pass the Wall somewhere.

A little bit Revenge of the Sith, but I like it. In this scenario, Aegon is the mummer's dragon(Varys was a mummer, the idea of Aegon the VI is Varys creation). If Aegon is true, I guess the mummer's dragon is Aurane Waters, but I think he is completely pro-Danaerys.

I think Howland will be the one to reveal it. I don't think there would be a lot of Bran's episodes anymore. He will be reserved to tell the epilogue, 100 years, or so, after the begining of the story.

[Alia of the knife]

Anyone thought about R+L=Jon AND Meera? Howland Reed was a very good friend of Lyanna. Howland was saved from bullies squires by Lyanna, on the tournament that she was the mistery knight. Lyanna died in birth labour, which indicates a troubled pregnancy. She could had twins and they split them, in order to protect their identity, since Robert's wanted all Targs dead.

They were born in the same year, Meera is much similar to Lyanna(warrior like, inteligent, sweet, dark hair, green eyes) and to Jon. Also, if this is true, Melisandre's prophecy that Jon's sister was arriving at Castle Black hurt, can be totally true, not a fake prophecy as Alys Karstark coming. We don't know how Meera is getting back from Three Eyed Crow's Lair, but she must pass the Wall somewhere.

A little bit Revenge of the Sith, but I like it. In this scenario, Aegon is the mummer's dragon(Varys was a mummer, the idea of Aegon the VI is Varys creation). If Aegon is true, I guess the mummer's dragon is Aurane Waters, but I think he is completely pro-Danaerys.

I think Howland will be the one to reveal it. I don't think there would be a lot of Bran's episodes anymore. He will be reserved to tell the epilogue, 100 years, or so, after the begining of the story.

I like it. :)

As I said before, it may be cliche', but if it's well done, I'm okay with it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Anyone thought about R+L=Jon AND Meera? Howland Reed was a very good friend of Lyanna. Howland was saved from bullies squires by Lyanna, on the tournament that she was the mistery knight. Lyanna died in birth labour, which indicates a troubled pregnancy. She could had twins and they split them, in order to protect their identity, since Robert's wanted all Targs dead.

I'm not sure I believe this, but it makes a certain sort of sense and it's one of the more reasonable theories I've seen. :)

[Alia of the knife]

Anyone thought about R+L=Jon AND Meera? Howland Reed was a very good friend of Lyanna. Howland was saved from bullies squires by Lyanna, on the tournament that she was the mistery knight. Lyanna died in birth labour, which indicates a troubled pregnancy. She could had twins and they split them, in order to protect their identity, since Robert's wanted all Targs dead.

They were born in the same year, Meera is much similar to Lyanna(warrior like, inteligent, sweet, dark hair, green eyes) and to Jon. Also, if this is true, Melisandre's prophecy that Jon's sister was arriving at Castle Black hurt, can be totally true, not a fake prophecy as Alys Karstark coming. We don't know how Meera is getting back from Three Eyed Crow's Lair, but she must pass the Wall somewhere.

A little bit Revenge of the Sith, but I like it. In this scenario, Aegon is the mummer's dragon(Varys was a mummer, the idea of Aegon the VI is Varys creation). If Aegon is true, I guess the mummer's dragon is Aurane Waters, but I think he is completely pro-Danaerys.

I think Howland will be the one to reveal it. I don't think there would be a lot of Bran's episodes anymore. He will be reserved to tell the epilogue, 100 years, or so, after the begining of the story.

Yeah, was Howland even home enough to have a child as old as Jon?

He seemed busy. :)

[Ojji]

Anyone thought about R+L=Jon AND Meera? Howland Reed was a very good friend of Lyanna. Howland was saved from bullies squires by Lyanna, on the tournament that she was the mistery knight. Lyanna died in birth labour, which indicates a troubled pregnancy. She could had twins and they split them, in order to protect their identity, since Robert's wanted all Targs dead.

They were born in the same year, Meera is much similar to Lyanna(warrior like, inteligent, sweet, dark hair, green eyes) and to Jon. Also, if this is true, Melisandre's prophecy that Jon's sister was arriving at Castle Black hurt, can be totally true, not a fake prophecy as Alys Karstark coming. We don't know how Meera is getting back from Three Eyed Crow's Lair, but she must pass the Wall somewhere.

I like it!

[keog]

Thanks for the replies on the timeline. So, if we have a timeline for Lyanna's possible pregnancy, next would be to establish her whereabouts.

Don't remember reading anywhere that she was at court ala Arya/and Sansa, though I suppose it is plausible if Rickard was shopping the family for succession. Point being, Rhaegar would need access to Lyanna for a kidnapping/eloping. If it didn't happen in KL, then where? Was it a wedding party in the Riverlands for Brandon's wedding? A visit to the Vale (doubtful, why would Rhaegar be there). Near Summerhall (why would Lyanna be there?).

[IceGal]

Anyone thought about R+L=Jon AND Meera? Howland Reed was a very good friend of Lyanna. Howland was saved from bullies squires by Lyanna, on the tournament that she was the mistery knight. Lyanna died in birth labour, which indicates a troubled pregnancy. She could had twins and they split them, in order to protect their identity, since Robert's wanted all Targs dead.

They were born in the same year, Meera is much similar to Lyanna(warrior like, inteligent, sweet, dark hair, green eyes) and to Jon. Also, if this is true, Melisandre's prophecy that Jon's sister was arriving at Castle Black hurt, can be totally true, not a fake prophecy as Alys Karstark coming. We don't know how Meera is getting back from Three Eyed Crow's Lair, but she must pass the Wall somewhere.

A little bit Revenge of the Sith, but I like it. In this scenario, Aegon is the mummer's dragon(Varys was a mummer, the idea of Aegon the VI is Varys creation). If Aegon is true, I guess the mummer's dragon is Aurane Waters, but I think he is completely pro-Danaerys.

I think Howland will be the one to reveal it. I don't think there would be a lot of Bran's episodes anymore. He will be reserved to tell the epilogue, 100 years, or so, after the begining of the story.

I like this too!

[Buried Treasure]

I'm afraid I don't really buy Meera as a product of R+L. For one thing she seems to much her father's daughter - I think the phrase Bran uses is she 'knows all the magic of her people'. More importantly, Meera is Howlands eldest child and was his heir til Jojen was born. I know the crannogmen are differerent to everybody else but I still think Howland would be too proud to allow House Reed to be inherited by someone entirely unrelated.

Timeline wise, the 1 year before abduction + 1 year of war is clouded because we don't really know what is counted as the start of the war. Was when Brandon rode into KL? When Aerys demanded Ned and Roberts heads or when major armies actually started fighting battles. There are a whole series of events that have to happen during the 'interlude' period between the abduction and the war proper - I have seen theories that compress this period to a few weeks and others that stretch it out almost a whole extra year.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm afraid I don't really buy Meera as a product of R+L. For one thing she seems to much her father's daughter - I think the phrase Bran uses is she 'knows all the magic of her people'. More importantly, Meera is Howlands eldest child and was his heir til Jojen was born. I know the crannogmen are differerent to everybody else but I still think Howland would be too proud to allow House Reed to be inherited by someone entirely unrelated.

Timeline wise, the 1 year before abduction + 1 year of war is clouded because we don't really know what is counted as the start of the war. Was when Brandon rode into KL? When Aerys demanded Ned and Roberts heads or when major armies actually started fighting battles. There are a whole series of events that have to happen during the 'interlude' period between the abduction and the war proper - I have seen theories that compress this period to a few weeks and others that stretch it out almost a whole extra year.

The way I understand it, it was Brandon and Rickard's executions that "officially" kicked off the war, and from that time to the Sack was "about a year."