R+L=J v.16

[Alia of the knife]

Can someone point me in the right direction for the rest of Martins stories, specifically the ones dealing with Bloodraven?

Are they in a book called: "The Mystery Knight," or is it in "Dreamsongs," and the title of the story is "Mystery Knight?"

[Dragonfish]

Can someone point me in the right direction for the rest of Martins stories, specifically the ones dealing with Bloodraven?

Are they in a book called: "The Mystery Knight," or is it in "Dreamsongs," and the title of the story is "Mystery Knight?"

There's a sticky thread below this one that tells you how to find all the Dunk & Egg stories.

Assuming you've read The Hedge Knight, the other two stories are The Sworn Sword and The Mystery Knight. The former contains a lot of background on Bloodraven and the Blackfyres, while the latter has Bloodraven himself in it.

[Alia of the knife]

There's a sticky thread below this one that tells you how to find all the Dunk & Egg stories.

Assuming you've read The Hedge Knight, the other two stories are The Sworn Sword and The Mystery Knight. The former contains a lot of background on Bloodraven and the Blackfyres, while the latter has Bloodraven himself in it.

Thanks!

[LadyMary]

Many believe that Rhaegar also married Lyanna. If he wanted to fulfill the PWWP prophecy the child couldn't be born a bastard.

I've been persuaded by the evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna must have exchanges some kind with vows to each other but whether that would be acknowledged as a legal marriage by the various religions of Westeros is still a question. Having said that, even if it's so, Rhaegar thought Aegon (his trueborn heir) was the PWWP and that "the dragon has three heads": Aegon, Rhaenys and a third child that Elia couldn't give him. There's nothing that says the three heads must be trueborn.

He possibly hid with Lyanna at the TOJ so that the marriage couldn't be set aside.

There were 3 KG members there including the commander. This is unusual for a prince's mistress and her bastard. When Aerys and Rhaegar died they were supposed to be with their king Viserys and not at the TOJ.

I think it's most likely the case, although I once theorized that the KG were at the TOJ because Aerys had ordered them to keep Lyanna hostage before everything went completely to hell (because he killed Lord Stark, Brandon and called for the head of Ned and Robert). But if the KG heard the news of Rhaegar and Aerys' deaths, they would have no reason to keep a pregnant girl prisoner in a tower. any longer and it would have made sense that they went to guard Viserys instead. So yeah, I think they must have considered Lyanna's child to be a potential heir and continuation of Rhaegar's line through marriage.

[ARYa_Nym]

I've been persuaded by the evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna must have exchanges some kind with vows to each other but whether that would be acknowledged as a legal marriage by the various religions of Westeros is still a question. Having said that, even if it's so, Rhaegar thought Aegon (his trueborn heir) was the PWWP and that "the dragon has three heads": Aegon, Rhaenys and a third child that Elia couldn't give him. There's nothing that says the three heads must be trueborn.

I said in another post that it was possible that he changed his mind again. Dany's vision was from before he took Lyanna. Aemon changed his mind right before he died so it's possible that before the end Rhaegar did too.

A bastard isn't a prince so he couldn't have expected the prophecy to be fulfilled at his birth like he initially thought it was for his own.

We really don't know what he meant by the Song of Ice and Fire. Maybe it's the Others vs. Dragons or whatever. Rhaegar may have changed his mind and thought that the mother needed to be a Stark though.

[Lexy Boleyn]

Possible R+L=J: in this TV show presentation, GRR Martin describes the Stark family and household... But NEVER says thet Jon is Ned's bastard, he states that he's a bastard and was brought up as Robb's brother, but not that he's from Ned's seed...

[The Mother of The Others]

Hey, other forum!

Here's my burning, nagging, itching, troublesome question about R + L = J:

In all this time, you know what I've never seen explained by R+L=J ??? How does the theory account for ARYA LOOKING SIMILAR TO JON ???????? This fact was really hammered hard at the start of the series. Arya was the only one of ned's kids who shared physical similarities with Jon. The hair. The face. I don't remember if the eyes were lumped in as part of this comparison.

Lately, it's got me totally wondering if there's even more strange humping going on here than we've ever imagined. Like maybe Cat had a revenge affair or something? But with whom, since there ain't no Targs still hanging around by that point in time. Yet doesn't Arya's age sort of match up with when the dust was settling from Robert's Rebellion, so that maybe Catelyn had travelled some to be a part of the victory celebrations down south or something? (No research has been done here by me, just to clarify. All of this is being pulled straight out of my butt. But still, you've gotta wonder about how Arya and Jon shared a look, if we know that Jon wasn't ned's. Hmmmmmm.

[Not A Lannister]

Hey, other forum!

Here's my burning, nagging, itching, troublesome question about R + L = J:

In all this time, you know what I've never seen explained by R+L=J ??? How does the theory account for ARYA LOOKING SIMILAR TO JON ???????? This fact was really hammered hard at the start of the series. Arya was the only one of ned's kids who shared physical similarities with Jon. The hair. The face. I don't remember if the eyes were lumped in as part of this comparison.

Lately, it's got me totally wondering if there's even more strange humping going on here than we've ever imagined. Like maybe Cat had a revenge affair or something? But with whom, since there ain't no Targs still hanging around by that point in time. Yet doesn't Arya's age sort of match up with when the dust was settling from Robert's Rebellion, so that maybe Catelyn had travelled some to be a part of the victory celebrations down south or something? (No research has been done here by me, just to clarify. All of this is being pulled straight out of my butt. But still, you've gotta wonder about how Arya and Jon shared a look, if we know that Jon wasn't ned's. Hmmmmmm.

It's also mentioned that Ayra looks like Lyanna, and Lyanna and Eddard are siblings so they share some physical characteristics. If Jon is Lyanna's and not Eddards, Jon and Arya can still look similar. Also Arya was born approx 289(+/-) that's nearly 6 years after the rebellion, I doubt there would still be victory celebrations. Catelyn (by that time) had already had two other children with Eddard and loved him, she also has a very negative view towards bastards, so I doubt she would want to risk having her own. Cousins/Half-siblings look alike, unless there is some large impact on physical appearance due to dominate genetic traits, and that's unlikely with the Starks.

[The Mother of The Others]

Thanks. It comforts me to know Arya's parentage is normal and that their resemblance fits the facts. But at the same time, isn't it always a little disappointing when you realize not everyone can be a secret Targ?

[Lady Lars]

Not only do Arya and Jon look alike, but it's also said they have "the Stark look," which I believe casts down most theories of parentage. Jon (or Cat?) mentions at one point something along the lines of "whoever Jon's mother was, she left no trace," which made me wonder for a hot minute whether Jon was the son of Ned and Lyanna. I since have adopted the R&L stance, but there is that option, since we know the Targaryen features are extremely distinctive... strange that Jon would have none of the trademark Targ looks, when you consider that most of the children of Ned and Catelyn look more like Cat.

Back to Jon and Arya having the Stark look - I think this is emphasized more to demonstrate their bond, and their Stark spirit. They understand the gritty reality of life, where sometimes even Ned had begun to turn a blind eye after so many years of summer.

[Alia of the knife]

Not only do Arya and Jon look alike, but it's also said they have "the Stark look," which I believe casts down most theories of parentage. Jon (or Cat?) mentions at one point something along the lines of "whoever Jon's mother was, she left no trace," which made me wonder for a hot minute whether Jon was the son of Ned and Lyanna. I since have adopted the R&L stance, but there is that option, since we know the Targaryen features are extremely distinctive... strange that Jon would have none of the trademark Targ looks, when you consider that most of the children of Ned and Catelyn look more like Cat.

Back to Jon and Arya having the Stark look - I think this is emphasized more to demonstrate their bond, and their Stark spirit. They understand the gritty reality of life, where sometimes even Ned had begun to turn a blind eye after so many years of summer.

You never know, a lot gets overlooked due to the coloring. Jon could be the spitting image of Rhaegar with the EXCEPTION of coloring.

It's like you don't see the obvious, because it's so muted.

There are a lot of characters with silver hair and purple eyes who are not Targs. at all, like most of the Citizens of Lys.

[kephv]

You never know, a lot gets overlooked due to the coloring. Jon could be the spitting image of Rhaegar with the EXCEPTION of coloring.

Has anyone who ever met Rhaegar seen Jon? Actually I think Cersei noted him and said he looked like Ned. But Syrio's cat story could definitely apply here, and perhaps now that he's grown up, he looks more like him.

Another thing that perhaps is telling is Ned's reluctance to take him to KL. I know the excuse he gave was technically valid but he could've found something for him to do surely.

[Alia of the knife]

Has anyone who ever met Rhaegar seen Jon? Actually I think Cersei noted him and said he looked like Ned. But Syrio's cat story could definitely apply here, and perhaps now that he's grown up, he looks more like him.

Another thing that perhaps is telling is Ned's reluctance to take him to KL. I know the excuse he gave was technically valid but he could've found something for him to do surely.

I imagine if Selmy were to run across an older Arya, and later, a living, adult Jon, the reaction will be more marked, since Selmy remembers both Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Also, there was the one Sandsnake with blonde hair, and blue eyes.

Doran swore she had the Red Vipers eyes, but they were blue.

[kephv]

Doran swore she had the Red Vipers eyes, but they were blue.

Wasn't that Hotah? Anyways, Jon and Rhaegar are both described as having a strange sullen look about them. I believe Cersei mentioned Rhaegar's sad eyes. Maybe it is the same with Jon.

[corbon]

strange that Jon would have none of the trademark Targ looks, when you consider that most of the children of Ned and Catelyn look more like Cat.

Not at all. The Targaryen look, though distinctive, doesn't seem to be that 'strong' genetically. There are numerous instances of Targs who don't have the Targ look - little murdered Rhaella for example had the Martell look and not the Targ look.

Hence, in part, the Targ interbreeding - the only way to maintain the 'purity' of their blood, which was necessary since it actually seems to be weaker than other bloodlines (not that anyone would say such a thing).

You never know, a lot gets overlooked due to the coloring. Jon could be the spitting image of Rhaegar with the EXCEPTION of coloring.

It's like you don't see the obvious, because it's so muted.

I don't believe so. The Stark look which is distinctive is a long, narrow, solemn face, as much or more than the colouring. Arya definitely has such a face - Arya Horseface she reflects being called IIRC. And since Jon looks like Arya, he almost certainly has that same face shape as well as the colouring.

The Tully's seem to be distinctive more for their colouring though. No one really seems to strongly suggest that Robb, Sansa and Rickon look very much alike other than to say they have the Tully colouring.

[kissdbyfire]

In all this time, you know what I've never seen explained by R+L=J ??? How does the theory account for ARYA LOOKING SIMILAR TO JON ????????

If R+L=J, it makes perfect sense for Jon and Arya to look alike, IMO.

Lately, it's got me totally wondering if there's even more strange humping going on here than we've ever imagined. Like maybe Cat had a revenge affair or something?

Lady Catelyn, the sanctimonious? I wouldn't believe that for a second.

[Ghost Rider]

I don't believe so. The Stark look which is distinctive is a long, narrow, solemn face, as much or more than the colouring. Arya definitely has such a face - Arya Horseface she reflects being called IIRC. And since Jon looks like Arya, he almost certainly has that same face shape as well as the colouring.

The Tully's seem to be distinctive more for their colouring though. No one really seems to strongly suggest that Robb, Sansa and Rickon look very much alike other than to say they have the Tully colouring.

How is "solemn" a facial feature at all, I wonder? It might be an expression, a sign of a serious-minded character, but no definable feature afak. And we actually know that Rhaegar is described as sad and melancholy. Sounds pretty close, imo.

I don't know anything about "narrow", where did you find that? A "long face" can mean a lot of things. Yes, Arya was indeed called "horseface" by Jeyne Poole. Children are like that. It doesn't mean much though. Jeyne Poole and Sansa also made Arya feel ugly while we know that she is a budding beauty like Lyanna. Rhaegar was considered very attractive too and for men usually "long" faces are considered more handsome - hence he might also have had a "long" face. We don't know anything else: nothing about the brow or the nose or the chin or cheekbone structure. Any one of these features could be similar to Rhaegar or not.

As to the Tully colouring: it seems indeed very striking, but I wouldn't expect too many similarities between a 14 year old boy, an 11 year old girl and a 3? year old boy apart from the obvious colouring. We don't have any detailed description for either of these characters. Sansa is only "beautiful", Robb "strong" and "fast", Rickon nonexisting. I would wage a wild guess that the Tullys have a rounder face compared to the Starks, otherwise there wouldn't be so much emphasize on the Stark faces.

[Ghost Rider]

Lady Catelyn, the sanctimonious? I wouldn't believe that for a second.

:devil: Who would have thought? :D There are some depth of darkness I wouldn't have suspected. :D Now Arya asking Jon whether she was a bastard as well finally makes sense!

[Alia of the knife]

Wasn't that Hotah? Anyways, Jon and Rhaegar are both described as having a strange sullen look about them. I believe Cersei mentioned Rhaegar's sad eyes. Maybe it is the same with Jon.

Woops, yes it was Hotah.

And Jon was not known for his sunny disposition, which is another nod in that direction, because even if Lyanna was rebellious, she probably laughed a good deal more than Rhaegar did.

[Galen M]

Has anyone who ever met Rhaegar seen Jon? Actually I think Cersei noted him and said he looked like Ned. But Syrio's cat story could definitely apply here, and perhaps now that he's grown up, he looks more like him.

Robert, Cersei, and Jaime, for sure. Maybe Tyrion, and gods know who else.