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Now Jon has to look exactly Rhaegar too except for the hair, despite the fact that every piece of information we have, without a single exception indicates that he doesn't, and resembles Ned and Lyanna instead? Jesus... And that's coming from some that does believe that Rhaegar is the father.

Robert, Cersei, and Jaime, for sure. Maybe Tyrion, and gods know who else.

Stannis. Possibly Catelyn as well (didn't Pycelle says Sansa looked just like Cat when she was younger? That means she was at King's Landing at some point, since Pycelle is unlikely to have left KL much),

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Now Jon has to look exactly Rhaegar too except for the hair, despite the fact that every piece of information we have, without a single exception indicates that he doesn't, and resembles Ned and Lyanna instead?

Hehe, who says that he has to look exactly like Rhaegar? Some just said that we don't know either way. For all we know there could be some features similar to Rhaegar, we simply have no idea what Ned, Lyanna look like apart from the long faces, brown hair, grey eyes. And while the Starks may look somewhat similar, they didn't look the same. Lyanna is considered to be a first rate beauty, Brandon very handsome, while Ned was seen as plain. Everything goes. We don't know much about Rhaegar either, actually. Yeah, silver hair and indigo (?) eyes, very handsome (can't imagine that, just don't really dig guys with very light hair...) Similarities don't have to be the face, they could pertain to the shape of the body or the way to move.

Stannis. Possibly Catelyn as well (didn't Pycelle says Sansa looked just like Cat when she was younger? That means she was at King's Landing at some point, since Pycelle is unlikely to have left KL much),

Well, it would be a much better reason for Ned to refuse to take Jon with him then the ones he brought forward. They are rather unconvincing considering people like Aurane Waters who didn't seem to have big problems because of his bastardy.

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Not at all. The Targaryen look, though distinctive, doesn't seem to be that 'strong' genetically. There are numerous instances of Targs who don't have the Targ look - little murdered Rhaella for example had the Martell look and not the Targ look.

I noticed that as well; like I said, I subscribe to R+L = J, but my first thought was still incest.

I think if Jon looked much like Rhaegar, someone would have mentioned it by now. Tyrion spent plenty of time with him, and Tyrion recognized Young Griff.

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Tyrion recognized Young Griff.

He knew something was up with them but he didn't know who he was until the halfmaester's secrets.

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There's a sticky thread below this one that tells you how to find all the Dunk & Egg stories.

Assuming you've read The Hedge Knight, the other two stories are The Sworn Sword and The Mystery Knight. The former contains a lot of background on Bloodraven and the Blackfyres, while the latter has Bloodraven himself in it.

Do you know if any of those are available online? I can't find it in local bookstores and my mom strongly opposes the thought of me ordering copies of those books online.

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Do you know if any of those are available online? I can't find it in local bookstores and my mom strongly opposes the thought of me ordering copies of those books online.

Sorry, I don't know the answer to your question. If your mom won't let you order them online, perhaps you could try getting them from your local public library (that's how I found my copies).

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Do you know if any of those are available online? I can't find it in local bookstores and my mom strongly opposes the thought of me ordering copies of those books online.

they are available for free online. The links are saved on my other computer. I'll post them when I get back to it.

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they are available for free online. The links are saved on my other computer. I'll post them when I get back to it.

Are those legal copies?

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Hey, other forum!

Here's my burning, nagging, itching, troublesome question about R + L = J:

In all this time, you know what I've never seen explained by R+L=J ??? How does the theory account for ARYA LOOKING SIMILAR TO JON ???????? This fact was really hammered hard at the start of the series. Arya was the only one of ned's kids who shared physical similarities with Jon. The hair. The face. I don't remember if the eyes were lumped in as part of this comparison.

Lately, it's got me totally wondering if there's even more strange humping going on here than we've ever imagined. Like maybe Cat had a revenge affair or something? But with whom, since there ain't no Targs still hanging around by that point in time. Yet doesn't Arya's age sort of match up with when the dust was settling from Robert's Rebellion, so that maybe Catelyn had travelled some to be a part of the victory celebrations down south or something? (No research has been done here by me, just to clarify. All of this is being pulled straight out of my butt. But still, you've gotta wonder about how Arya and Jon shared a look, if we know that Jon wasn't ned's. Hmmmmmm.

jon looks like his mother, lyanna.

arya looks like her aunt, lyanna

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Here's the key piece of evidence, I think: The presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy.

Explain to me why Rhaegar, who was obsessed with The Prince That Was Promised, would send away his own sworn shields if not for the next king? They would never have accepted the order to make sure the girl that he had kidnapped wasn't freed when it meant Rhaegar, and later Aerys, life.

No, I believe Rhaegar knew that he and Aerys were to die and convinced the kingsguard to protect the next heir to the throne (after Aegon? I'm not sure if he was thought to be dead at that point).

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How is it that Varys and his little birds missed putting 2+2 together. White Knights guard Tower of Joy, Ned kills them and comes home with bouncing baby boy. It's almost a Duh moment, which scares me because I think GRRM will find a way to make it not so.

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No, I believe Rhaegar knew that he and Aerys were to die and convinced the kingsguard to protect the next heir to the throne (after Aegon? I'm not sure if he was thought to be dead at that point).

I don't think Rhaegar believed he was going to die. Right before he leaves to fight the Battle of the Trident, he tells Jaime about his plans to call a council and make changes when the battle is over. This makes me think he was confident that he would win.

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I don't think Rhaegar believed he was going to die. Right before he leaves to fight the Battle of the Trident, he tells Jaime about his plans to call a council and make changes when the battle is over. This makes me think he was confident that he would win.

Ooh... that's an excellent point hahaha. Alright, I take that back.

Still, I think the Kingsguard needs an explaination if R+L=J is to be dismissed. :)

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How is it that Varys and his little birds missed putting 2+2 together. White Knights guard Tower of Joy, Ned kills them and comes home with bouncing baby boy. It's almost a Duh moment, which scares me because I think GRRM will find a way to make it not so.

Who says he doesn't know, or at least suspects of that?

I don't think Rhaegar believed he was going to die. Right before he leaves to fight the Battle of the Trident, he tells Jaime about his plans to call a council and make changes when the battle is over. This makes me think he was confident that he would win.

More than that, for me he was so obsessed with prophecies that the thought of losing never crossed his mind. Heck, challenging on your own a huge, strong guy with a massive warhammer and great fighting skill when you know that if you die, the war is completely lost is proof enough of that. Specially when he had better fighters like Barristan or Dayne (surely two KG members would be enough) willing to die for him.

The 3 KG men were to avoid someone kidnapping Lyanna while he was away, but I doubt he ever thought he and the 3 heads of the dragon would die.

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We have inconclusive information. Barriston said:

"If Rhaegar had been happy in his wife, he would not have needed the Stark girl." "Perhaps so, Your Grace." Whitebeard paused a moment. "But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy." "...there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense....of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all of his days."

"At the welcome feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp."

He sounds at the very least Depressed.

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How is it that Varys and his little birds missed putting 2+2 together. White Knights guard Tower of Joy, Ned kills them and comes home with bouncing baby boy. It's almost a Duh moment, which scares me because I think GRRM will find a way to make it not so.

There was a discussion going on at one of the earlier threads. The best theory is that no one challenged Ned on Jon's parents because no one thought that Ned Stark would lie. If someone brought up the idea of Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, they'd probably all laugh about the craziness of the theory because of the actors involved. Also, Varys, Littlefinger, and Tywin all have their own agendas and that might obscure them to things which may seem clear to others.

Also, Rhaegar probably left the KG at the Tower to protect his prophecized son; I'm assuming that Aegon was no longer the main PTWP and that his son with Lyanna was the new messianic figure. The Kingsguard evidence comes into play after the death of Rhaegar and the sack of King's Landing when Ned was basically trying to give Dayne and co. an out by mentioning that perhaps they should be fleeing to Dragonstone to protect Viserys.

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Do you know if any of those are available online? I can't find it in local bookstores and my mom strongly opposes the thought of me ordering copies of those books online.

Have you checked if the local bookstores can have them on print on demand?

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We really don't know what he meant by the Song of Ice and Fire. Maybe it's the Others vs. Dragons or whatever. Rhaegar may have changed his mind and thought that the mother needed to be a Stark though.

Yes. Especially from what Rhaegar says when Dany has the vision at the House of the Undying.

He says something implying (paraphrasing) that TPTWP has a song, a song of Ice and Fire. I could be totally wrong, but I interpret that as being 'a Stark (ice) + Targaryen (fire) child.

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