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jon looks like his mother, lyanna.

arya looks like her aunt, lyanna

Haha! Good, simple explanation!

But why explain in two sentences when a half page of flowery prose would have sufficed? ;)

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When Rhaegar left the Tower, the kid had not been born yet. Aegon was still the PTWP, because Rhaegar almost certainly expected the child to be a girl, judging by the names he was giving to them.

The House of the Dying vision probably occurred right after Aegon birth, before the Tournament at Harrenhal. Elia was strong enough to attend the tournament, so Aegon must have been at least a year old at the time. Frankly, Aegon was probably more of a toddler than a baby when the sack of King's Landing occurred. He was at least two - if you take into account the time needed for Elia to recover, the time between the Tourney and Lyanna's abduction, and the time between Lyanna's "abduction" and the sack of King's Landing.

It seems like Rhaegar's theories about the PTWP changed on a regular basis. First, he was the PTWP. Later it was Aegon and he needed three heads for the dragon. It is quite possible that by the time Harrenhal rolled around and Rhaegar became obsessed with Lyanna that the PTWP had changed from Aegon to Lyanna's child - the union between ice (Stark) and fire (Targaryen). The fact that Rhaegar decided that Lyanna's child would be the PTWP is the only logical reason why three of the best Kingsguard were left at the Tower of Joy. If Aegon was still at the center of the prophecy, then Rhaegar would have probably left Dayne with his heir. Of course, the KG stayed even after being informed of Rhaegar and Aegon's death probably because the baby was the king as well as being the world's savior.

Additionally, I'm not so sure that Rhaegar thought that Lyanna's child was going to be a girl by the time he left the Tower. After ADWD, some people are speculating that Jon may have been named after Rhaegar's friend Jon Connington, rather than Ned's mentor Jon Arryn. It's likely that Jon C. and Lyanna probably were only vaguely acquainted with each other and Jon C. clearly doesn't know about Lyanna and Rhaegar's child. So Rhaegar was probably the one who proposed the name in honor of the friend who had been forced into exile by his father.

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Haha! Good, simple explanation!

But why explain in two sentences when a half page of flowery prose would have sufficed? ;)

:drunk: just lazy I guess......

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The House of the Dying vision probably occurred right after Aegon birth, before the Tournament at Harrenhal. Elia was strong enough to attend the tournament, so Aegon must have been at least a year old at the time. Frankly, Aegon was probably more of a toddler than a baby when the sack of King's Landing occurred. He was at least two - if you take into account the time needed for Elia to recover, the time between the Tourney and Lyanna's abduction, and the time between Lyanna's "abduction" and the sack of King's Landing.

Aegon was one year old at the time of the Sack, according to this SSM. That means he was born soon before the war began, and after Harrenhal (which took place about a year before the war). In other words, that HotU vision in which Rhaegar declares Aegon to be the PWWP had to have taken place after Rhaegar had already met Lyanna. This puts a damper on theories that Rhaegar changed his mind and thought his child with Lyanna would be the PWWP.

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Ok, I know this is possibly the 'crackpotest' of all crackpot theories... but It did occur to me when I first read AGoT: what if it is Rhaegar and Lyanna in the vision at the HotU, and the baby is Jon? No idea what to make of Rhaegar's comment about needing one more.

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I do remember reading a part where it said that Rhaegar at some point, did decide that Aegon was not TPTWP, but not sure when that would have been.

I do think though, that Elias inability to have more children did give Rhaegar the "green light" to take Lyanna, either as a secondary wife, or actually to put Elia aside, because remember how he said SADLY, that there must be one more. I think he knew at that point he would have to do something that would hurt Elia, and though he didn't love her, he still didn't want to keep distressing her.

I'm sure she must have known he was in love with Lyanna, because everyone else seemed to know.

Another thought, or idea has occurred to me on Lyannas "abduction."

As many of you know, I go back and forth wondering whether it was consensual, if she was in love with him, etc.

But, in the case that it was, I know Martin draws heavily from many sources, with history being one of them, particularly Plantaganet history and The War of the Roses, (which is also a favorite of mine as well).

Anyway, in that case King Edwards marriage to Elizabeth Woodville and the succession was called into question when it was found that in his youth, Edward had plighted his troth with another woman.

What if Martin applied similar principles here, but switched the players?

Say Edward for LYANNA?

Some have surmised elsewhere that Lyanna may not have been formerly betrothed to Robert yet at the time of Harrenhal, (I tend to think she was), but say that she was not. Rhaegar and Lyanna meet, fall in love, and as some have also speculated, promised herself ("plighted her troth"),in secret to Rhaegar, with Benjen as the Male Stark to witness?

Since the precedent of Targaryen polygamy has been introduced, Rhaegars situation is more manageable than Lyannas, if she is indeed betrothed to another Lord, because that does involve Rhaegar overstepping his power, therefore she is pretty much off the marriage market.

But, if she is not at this point, and "says the words," (whether she has a right to do so, or not), to Rhaegar, Brandon sensing something is afoot, presses Robert who still wants the marriage, and knowing Rickards wishes, and announces their betrothal AT Harrenhal, surprising Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Now it's RHAEGAR, and NOT Robert who has a right to her, hence the crowning, (which is his way of staking his claim, at least symbolically).

He later "abducts" her, then he legally marrys her, hides with her for a year, so the marriage CAN'T be set aside, and throw in her having his child on top of it.

It still may not be enough to legally hold water, but if the Targaryens are still omnicient enough to marry their siblings, have more than one wife, rape another mans wife, (Johanna Lannister), and burn people with impunity, then if the Crown Prince wants to make a stink over a promise made, (rightly, or wrongly), especially involving Stark honor, then I bet Rhaegar can win some ground.

It's still messy, but so were the events surrounding the Plantaganets, Woodvilles, Lancasters, and Tudors, ending the Plantaganet dynasty.

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We don't know what happened between the time he met her at Harrenhal and when he took her. I think she was willing but I don't think the brief time of the tourney was enough. She barely knew him.

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I do remember reading a part where it said that Rhaegar at some point, did decide that Aegon was not TPTWP, but not sure when that would have been.

Aemon tells Sam in AFFC that Rhaegar originally believed he was the PWWP, but later changed his mind and decided it was Aegon. But nowhere does it say that Rhaegar changed his mind yet again and decided Aegon wasn't the PWWP.

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We don't know what happened between the time he met her at Harrenhal and when he took her. I think she was willing but I don't think the brief time of the tourney was enough. She barely knew him.

I've thought of that too, but in those days, given how long it took to get somewhere, that Tourney could have lasted a very long time, especially given that all the Noble Houses in the land were represented. Would it be worth it if they were only going to be there for a week, or two?

But, if that is true, then barely knowing him makes me think she would have NOT been willing, IMHO.

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Aegon was one year old at the time of the Sack, according to this SSM. That means he was born soon before the war began, and after Harrenhal (which took place about a year before the war). In other words, that HotU vision in which Rhaegar declares Aegon to be the PWWP had to have taken place after Rhaegar had already met Lyanna. This puts a damper on theories that Rhaegar changed his mind and thought his child with Lyanna would be the PWWP.

Yes. Also, GRRM already said it was Ned who named the child.

I've thought of that too, but in those days, given how long it took to get somewhere, that Tourney could have lasted a very long time, especially given that all the Noble Houses in the land were represented. Would it be worth it if they were only going to be there for a week, or two?

But, if that is true, then barely knowing him makes me think she would have NOT been willing, IMHO.

Tournaments don't last that long, people have to get on with their lives LOL! And Rhaegar met Lyanna almost certainly during the tournament, not before, on their way, etc. The tournament itself only lasted a couple of days.

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I've thought of that too, but in those days, given how long it took to get somewhere, that Tourney could have lasted a very long time, especially given that all the Noble Houses in the land were represented. Would it be worth it if they were only going to be there for a week, or two?

But, if that is true, then barely knowing him makes me think she would have NOT been willing, IMHO.

Wiki says 10 days.

That's what I mean though. There's a time period that is unaccounted for. We don't even know where Rhaegar took her from. Where did she go after Harrenhal? Why did Rhaegar take her at that precise moment?

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Aemon tells Sam in AFFC that Rhaegar originally believed he was the PWWP, but later changed his mind and decided it was Aegon. But nowhere does it say that Rhaegar changed his mind yet again and decided Aegon wasn't the PWWP.

Then the Wiki is wrong too, and perhaps that is where I saw it.

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Wiki says 10 days.

That's what I mean though. There's a time period that is unaccounted for. We don't even know where Rhaegar took her from. Where did she go after Harrenhal? Why did Rhaegar take her at that precise moment?

I know, I have the same questions. :bang:

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Then the Wiki is wrong too, and perhaps that is where I saw it.

Where is the wiki wrong? Does it actually say the Rhaegar changed his mind again?

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Yes. Also, GRRM already said it was Ned who named the child.

Tournaments don't last that long, people have to get on with their lives LOL! And Rhaegar met Lyanna almost certainly during the tournament, not before, on their way, etc. The tournament itself only lasted a couple of days.

And you know, unlike today where there doesn't seem like there is enough time, then, time was all they had, and events like visiting, and getting together WAS the entertainment.

And there was a lot going on.

Many people make speculations on what THEY want to see happen, I made mine based on an idea that Martin could be drawing from other sources for his events, and in a review of ASoIaF, the reviewer basically said it was a re-telling of the "War of the Roses." :dunno:

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Where is the wiki wrong? Does it actually say the Rhaegar changed his mind again?

Yeah, it did.

I went back and checked it, but sites like that are occasionally wrong, or maybe it was one not updated?

I personally think IMHO, that Jon is not TPTWP, but AA, which I believe are two different people, and he's meant to clear the way for TPTWP in one capacity, or another.

In any case, maybe Jon was actually supposed to be a Visenya, and since he was not, then the prophesy actually may be fulfilling itself without Rhaegars "help."

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Aegon was one year old at the time of the Sack, according to this SSM. That means he was born soon before the war began, and after Harrenhal (which took place about a year before the war). In other words, that HotU vision in which Rhaegar declares Aegon to be the PWWP had to have taken place after Rhaegar had already met Lyanna. This puts a damper on theories that Rhaegar changed his mind and thought his child with Lyanna would be the PWWP.

Then why send your three best guards to guard your mistress/ junior wife with one of the lesser pieces of the prophecy and keep the world's savior unguarded with your crazy father? Why was Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna rather than King's Landing with Aegon if Rhaegar hadn't come to the conclusion that his child with Lyanna, not Aegon, was the PTWP? Moreover based on the info provided in ADWD, it seems like Elia gave birth to Aegon before the tourney at Harrenhal. Aegon is supposed to be 18 years old according to Tyrion, which would make him two years older than Dany, Robb, and Jon and also make him around two at the time he was killed.

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