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Ok, but what page? That's why I asked "where" the wiki is wrong.

O-kay.

Googled a different Wiki, rather than going to this particular one, and it said of Rhaegar Targaryen: (Not quoting the whole thing).

"Rhaegar married the Dornish Princess Elia Martell, with whom he had two children, Rhaenys and Aegon.

Master Aemon remembered that Rhaegar ERRONIOUSLY believed his son Aegon to be TPTWP."

I actually read that before I discoverd this forum, so if that one is wrong, correct them, because I imagine many people have seen that one before discovering this one.

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Then why send your three best guards to guard your mistress/ junior wife with one of the lesser pieces of the prophecy and keep the world's savior unguarded with your crazy father? Why was Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna rather than King's Landing with Aegon if Rhaegar hadn't come to the conclusion that his child with Lyanna, not Aegon, was the PTWP?.

Because:

1) Lyanna was in the middle of nowhere, while Aegon and Rhaenys had at least hundreds of soldiers to defend them;

2) The 3 heads of the dragon were all important, not necessarily one more or much more than the other;

3) Most importantly, Rhaegar never considered the possibility of losing. The 3 KG members there was to avoid a kidnapping while he was away or something in that sense. But until Robert lifted his warhammer for the final blow, Rhaegar never thought he could lose. If he did, he would have just sent Barristan or Dayne himself to kill Robert.

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Then why send your three best guards to guard your mistress/ junior wife with one of the lesser pieces of the prophecy and keep the world's savior unguarded with your crazy father?

Unguarded? There were hundreds of soldiers in the Red Keep, and four Kingsguard members up until Rhaegar left for the Trident. Lyanna needed those three Kingsguard because without them she would have been completely unguarded.

Why was Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna rather than King's Landing with Aegon if Rhaegar hadn't come to the conclusion that his child with Lyanna, not Aegon, was the PTWP? Based on the info provided in ADWD, it seems like Elia gave birth to Aegon before the tourney at Harrenhal. Aegon is supposed to be 18 years old according to Tyrion, which would make him two years older than Dany, Robb, and Jon and also make him around two at the time he was killed.

First of all, Harrenhal took place about a year before the war. If Aegon was two at the time of the Sack, that means he would have been born around the time of Harrenhal. He probably wasn't born just before Harrenhal, because it wouldn't make sense for Elia to be there if she had just nearly died in childbirth. So whether he was one or two, he had to have been born after Harrenhal, and therefore after Rhaegar met Lyanna.

Second of all, I seem to recall that nearly three years have passed since the beginning of AGoT, but as of now I'm having trouble finding quotes to back that up. However, I will say that if Aegon is two years older than Dany, then that means he'd be a little more than a year old at the time of the Sack (since Dany was born nine months after her flight from King's Landing, which was right before the Sack). I think you mean to say he's two years older than Jon and Robb.

ETA--Also, Tyrion says that Aegon is around fifteen or sixteen, not eighteen. It's the appendix that says he's eighteen. It's not clear to me whether that's supposed to be Aegon's "official" age, or simply Young Griff's true age (if so, then this might be more evidence that he's not who he claims to be).

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O-kay.

Googled a different Wiki, rather than going to this particular one, and it said of Rhaegar Targaryen: (Not quoting the whole thing).

"Rhaegar married the Dornish Princess Elia Martell, with whom he had two children, Rhaenys and Aegon.

Master Aemon remembered that Rhaegar ERRONIOUSLY believed his son Aegon to be TPTWP."

I actually read that before I discoverd this forum, so if that one is wrong, correct them, because I imagine many people have seen that one before discovering this one.

That sentence doesn't mean that Rhaegar changed his mind. It means that Rhaegar believed Aegon was the PWWP, but was wrong. I imagine it was written before ADWD came out, because now that YG is on the scene, the question of whether or not Aegon really is the PWWP is still up in the air.

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That sentence doesn't mean that Rhaegar changed his mind. It means that Rhaegar believed Aegon was the PWWP, but was wrong. I imagine it was written before ADWD came out, because now that YG is on the scene, the question of whether or not Aegon really is the PWWP is still up in the air.

I think it's fair to say that Rhaegar, while generally and probably a good guy, has been potentially wrong about many things.

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I think it's fair to say that Rhaegar, while generally and probably a good guy, has been potentially wrong about many things.

I agree. But my main point was that the sentence you pulled from the wiki does not claim that Rhaegar changed his mind again about who the PWWP was.

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Unguarded? There were hundreds of soldiers in the Red Keep, and four Kingsguard members up until Rhaegar left for the Trident. Lyanna needed those three Kingsguard because without them she would have been completely unguarded.

Rhaegar took his three most trusted guards with him to a Tower outside the middle of nowhere to guard his junior wife/ mistress and bastard/ spare to the throne and then took another three guards with him to the Trident. That left Elia and his precious savior with Tywin Lannister's son and his crazy father. It seems like he should have taken some more precautions. If Aegon and Rhaenrys were so important to the prophecy, why not take them to the hidden secret place in the middle of Dorne that even Varys couldn't find.

First of all, Harrenhal took place about a year before the war. If Aegon was two at the time of the Sack, that means he would have been born around the time of Harrenhal. He probably wasn't born just before Harrenhal, because it wouldn't make sense for Elia to be there if she had just nearly died in childbirth. So whether he was one or two, he had to have been born after Harrenhal, and therefore after Rhaegar met Lyanna.

I've always assumed that Rhaegar decided to take Lyanna as a mistress/ second wife because Elia couldn't have another child. Rhaegar may have had a crush on Lyanna, but I don't think that he would have acted on the relationship out of lust. It seems like the impetus of the Queen of Love and Beauty incident was Elia being unable to carry the third child. I don't think that Rhaegar would embarass his wife unless something more important (the prophecy) was involved.

ETA--Also, Tyrion says that Aegon is around fifteen or sixteen, not eighteen. It's the appendix that says he's eighteen. It's not clear to me whether that's supposed to be Aegon's "official" age, or simply Young Griff's true age (if so, then this might be more evidence that he's not who he claims to be).

Tyrion mentioned that Aegon should be 18, but that YG looks to be 15 or 16. I think that this should be taken as evidence that YG isn't who Varys and Illyrio say he is. Most likely he is Illyrio's son.

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I think different people come at this subject for different reasons in absence of the actual information from Martin, but it is ALL speculative, (and should be fun).

For all we know, Lyanna and Rhaegar MAY have met before.

As the story deconstructs, we may find that in Berantheons, (Roberts Father), search for a bride for Rhaegar, he MAY have gone North in a nod to Rhaegars prophesy, found the Warden of the Norths daughter, who would have been around ten, arranged a meeting, she would have been a hoydenish tomboy who didn't want to marry "a stupid ole Prince anyway," and whose Father would probably not be as thrilled about it as Aerys would not be, but for his own reasons.

Aerys might have had his Targaryen pride tweaked, but was willing to let it go, since he didn't want it either. and let any agreement with Stark flounder. Rhaegar may have still been game even if Lyanna wasn't so appealing at this time, due to prophesy.(I also think Rhaegar may have had as much to do with turning down any arrangement with Cersei as Aerys, because he sensed the corruption in her, despite her beauty).

But since Aerys was all about Dorne, he ended up with Elia.

Five years later, they meet again at the Tourney, Lyanna is a spirited beauty, likes to fight off bullies and joust, and Rhaegar remembers her as the girl who might have been his wife.

I think this aspect of a brief "history" between them, is as possible as the two meeting and falling in love after only ten days, (Spring-break style), destroying a Kingdom over it.

Especially when we know that at least one part of the couple, Rhaegar, is supposed to be a bit more substanative than whimsical, a man in his prime, and not a boy. Given Lyannas character thus far in being savvy enough to call Robert out to Ned, and take up for a man she didn't know, then maybe we can assume she was a bit more than just a hormonal, sixteen year old.

(I also might add that in those days fifteen, or sixteen would be todays equivelant of twenty-five, or twenty-six).

And maybe Martin doesn't hide a "bugaboo" behind every written word, maybe, just maybe what he says is what it is:

Ashara giving birth to a stillborn girl may be a tool to finally take her out of the running as Jons mother, (I suppose leaving Wylla), getting closer to the mystery everyone wants solved.

"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it" may be just what happened, no prophesy, no cynical motivations to save the world, he followed his heart rather than duty, and paid for it. End of story. :dunno:

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I’ve been thinking about the HotU vision again. I think there is something being missed there somewhere. I don’t know, I just think there is more to this vision than meets the eye. Given Bran’s vision in ADwD and the opening up to the possibility for weird time-related stuff happening (yes, Butterfly Effect, I’m aware), what if the scene in which Dany sees Rhaegar in the HotU is a glimpse of something that could have happened (possible future) but never did?

Too crackpot? Just a thought... :dunno:

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Rhaegar took his three most trusted guards with him to a Tower outside the middle of nowhere to guard his junior wife/ mistress and bastard/ spare to the throne and then took another three guards with him to the Trident. That left Elia and his precious savior with Tywin Lannister's son and his crazy father. It seems like he should have taken some more precautions. If Aegon and Rhaenrys were so important to the prophecy, why not take them to the hidden secret place in the middle of Dorne that even Varys couldn't find.

Because he never thought he would lose the war and the children die. It's simple. And in anyway the 3 KG were good, but it was not better protectiong than HUNDREDS of soldiers in the Red Keep. Rhaegar was simply try to avoid a kidnapping while he was away and to have someone helping Lyanna with her pregnancy.

I've always assumed that Rhaegar decided to take Lyanna as a mistress/ second wife because Elia couldn't have another child. Rhaegar may have had a crush on Lyanna, but I don't think that he would have acted on the relationship out of lust. It seems like the impetus of the Queen of Love and Beauty incident was Elia being unable to carry the third child. I don't think that Rhaegar would embarass his wife unless something more important (the prophecy) was involved.

No, at that point Elia could have other children, and she did, Aegon was born after that. He embarassed her in public because...well, that's a good question, but most likely he was either foolish enough to think she and everyone else wouldn't mind or he simply didn't give a damn about her feelings or anyone else's.

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I think different people come at this subject for different reasons in absence of the actual information from Martin, but it is ALL speculative, (and should be fun).

For all we know, Lyanna and Rhaegar MAY have met before.

There is no evidence of that.

As the story deconstructs, we may find that in Berantheons, (Roberts Father), search for a bride for Rhaegar, he MAY have gone North in a nod to Rhaegars prophesy, found the Warden of the Norths daughter, who would have been around ten, arranged a meeting, she would have been a hoydenish tomboy who didn't want to marry "a stupid ole Prince anyway," and whose Father would probably not be as thrilled about it as Aerys would not be, but for his own reasons.

Aerys might have had his Targaryen pride tweaked, but was willing to let it go, since he didn't want it either. and let any agreement with Stark flounder. Rhaegar may have still been game even if Lyanna wasn't so appealing at this time, due to prophesy.(I also think Rhaegar may have had as much to do with turning down any arrangement with Cersei as Aerys, because he sensed the corruption in her, despite her beauty).

But since Aerys was all about Dorne, he ended up with Elia.

Steffon Baratheon went to the Free Cities. The goal was to find a bride with Valyrian features, not a Northern girl.

The reason to Aerys choosing Elia was well-stated: he was convinced because they were princes with Targaryen blood, and Doran's mother successfully convinced him to get back at Tywin for being a prick. Rhaegar had nothing to do with it.

(I also might add that in those days fifteen, or sixteen would be todays equivelant of twenty-five, or twenty-six).

Lyanna was 14 when she met Rhaegar, and either way, a 15 year old was still a minor. There were more demands to a 14 or 15 year old than of someone in our society, but they were still children. Cases like Robb leading an army were exceptional, and even then, if there was an older male Stark available, presumedly he would be the one leading the army instead. Even becoming a knight before 16 was something very rare. Certainly a 15 year old in not a "25 or 26 year old in real life", that's non-sense.

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There is no evidence of that.

There is no evidence that he did not.

Steffon Baratheon went to the Free Cities. The goal was to find a bride with Valyrian features, not a Northern girl.

I believe the goal would have been to find someone of appropriate lineage in the absence of a Targ. sister, because for someone like Aerys,

no one would have been good enough. Besides, why even consider a match with Cersei as she is not from the Free Cities?

And why keep saying Rhaegar lived his life around this prophesy as some have argued, if he may not have at least considered some highborn woman from from the North, especially a girl who was from a line of Kings, who styled themselves the Kings of Winter, BEFORE he married Elia?

The reason to Aerys choosing Elia was well-stated: he was convinced because they were princes with Targaryen blood, and Doran's mother successfully convinced him to get back at Tywin for being a prick. Rhaegar had nothing to do with it.

Okay, then why not start there first? Why send Berantheon on this search?

It may have been a factor, but keeping Dorne in the fold was just as much a factor, and besides, it would appear that Aerys already "got back" at Tywin if the roomers of his raping Tywins wife are to be believed.

Lyanna was 14 when she met Rhaegar, and either way, a 15 year old was still a minor. There were more demands to a 14 or 15 year old than of someone in our society, but they were still children. Cases like Robb leading an army were exceptional, and even then, if there was an older male Stark available, presumedly he would be the one leading the army instead. Even becoming a knight before 16 was something very rare. Certainly a 15 year old in not a "25 or 26 year old in real life", that's non-sense.

Khal Drogo took Dany when she was even younger, but no one seems to think that he is a negative character.

Whats "non-sense" is the idea of applying todays standards to that time. Richard III commanded his first army when he was sixteen, Cleopatra was in her teens when she was "playing the game of thrones." A "childhood" as we know and understand it today did not exist until recent history, and I think that is why Martin can be forgiven when he writes about the youth of his characters, because that is his way of pointing out the bruatlity of those times. Bran was almost a man grown at nine.

If Martin wasn't trying to make point about that brutality, then reading his works alone could be disturbing in and of itself.

(And girls learned from the moment they could walk how to manage a household, particularly highborn girls).

Martin plays with longevity, but the reality is that many women only lived to be in their mid-thirties due to complications of childbirth, and the toll that childbirth took on the health of their bodies, and men didn't live much longer.

(My own Father was living on his own, and working at sixteen).

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Rhaegar took his three most trusted guards with him to a Tower outside the middle of nowhere to guard his junior wife/ mistress and bastard/ spare to the throne and then took another three guards with him to the Trident. That left Elia and his precious savior with Tywin Lannister's son and his crazy father. It seems like he should have taken some more precautions. If Aegon and Rhaenrys were so important to the prophecy, why not take them to the hidden secret place in the middle of Dorne that even Varys couldn't find.

Winterfell is Burning has addressed this, so I'll just refer you to his post.

I've always assumed that Rhaegar decided to take Lyanna as a mistress/ second wife because Elia couldn't have another child.

I think it was a combination of love and the fact that he needed a third head.

Rhaegar may have had a crush on Lyanna, but I don't think that he would have acted on the relationship out of lust. It seems like the impetus of the Queen of Love and Beauty incident was Elia being unable to carry the third child. I don't think that Rhaegar would embarass his wife unless something more important (the prophecy) was involved.

Well, then I think either George has messed up on the timeline, or your assumption over why Rhaegar would act the way he did is false. Both scenarios are possible.

Tyrion mentioned that Aegon should be 18, but that YG looks to be 15 or 16.

I don't recall this. The only reference Tyrion makes to Young Griff's age that I can find is on p. 119: "The dwarf put his age at fifteen, sixteen, or near enough to make no matter." No mention of what his age should be (though this is before Tyrion knows Young Griff's true identity).

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ETA--Also, Tyrion says that Aegon is around fifteen or sixteen, not eighteen. It's the appendix that says he's eighteen. It's not clear to me whether that's supposed to be Aegon's "official" age, or simply Young Griff's true age (if so, then this might be more evidence that he's not who he claims to be).

I don't think that his age matters because in my opinion he is ''the mummer's dragon" = fake. Rhaenys, his sister had the Martell looks, I suppose her brother should have that too. But Young Griffin looks "too much" like a Targaryen, as if someone put a lot effort to this.

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I don't think that his age matters because in my opinion he is ''the mummer's dragon" = fake. Rhaenys, his sister had the Martell looks, I suppose her brother should have that too. But Young Griffin looks "too much" like a Targaryen, as if someone put a lot effort to this.

Actually, baby Aegon had the Targaryen look, according to this SSM

And while I agree that Young Griff is probably fake, the real question is what age baby Aegon ought to be today if he were alive. The appendix says that Young Griff is "a boy of eighteen years." Now, is this supposed to be his "official" age (i.e. the age the Aegon would be if he were still alive), or Young Griff's actual age? If it's the latter, then possibly this is a clue that Young Griff is not actually Aegon. But if it's the former, then George has apparently changed his mind on what Aegon's age should be (or is perhaps mistaken).

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Actually, baby Aegon had the Targaryen look, according to this SSM

And while I agree that Young Griff is probably fake, the real question is what age baby Aegon ought to be today if he were alive. The appendix says that Young Griff is "a boy of eighteen years." Now, is this supposed to be his "official" age (i.e. the age the Aegon would be if he were still alive), or Young Griff's actual age? If it's the latter, then possibly this is a clue that Young Griff is not actually Aegon. But if it's the former, then George has apparently changed his mind on what Aegon's age should be (or is perhaps mistaken).

I think 18 is about right for the real Aegon. He was supposed to have died about 15 years before the start of AGOT and it has been about 2-3 years since then and say he was about 1 year old at the time, that would make him 18-19 years old.

I think that the real clue is that Tyrion thinks YG looks about 15 or 16 which is (slightly) too young for the real Aegon.

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I think 18 is about right for the real Aegon. He was supposed to have died about 15 years before the start of AGOT and it has been about 2-3 years since then and say he was about 1 year old at the time, that would make him 18-19 years old.

This is right. Martin has said Aegon was,

“At the time of the Sack, Aegon Targaryen was, ‘Still a babe at the breast. A year old, give or take a turn or two.’”

Combine this with the year 283 listed in the chronology of Targaryen Kings (A Game of Thrones 693) for the end of Aerys's reign - meaning the sack and Aerys's death takes place in that year - and we have Aegon as eighteen in year 300, the current year as of the end of A Storm of Swords, and most of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons.

Note that because of the phrase "take a turn or two" it is just possible that Aegon was born in the the year 283 if the sack takes place in the very late months of that year. It would mean, however, that the scene depicted in Daenerys's vision in the House of the Undying showing Aegon's birth takes place during the time the rebellion is on going. As this is almost certainly not the case, it is very likely he is born in year 282.

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So Rhaegar was so obsessed with the prophecy that his son with Lyanna was the true heir? that's why he sent the kingsguard there? but kingsguard are sworn to defend the king, right? can the prince (Rhaegar) commanded them to protect an unborn child?

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So Rhaegar was so obsessed with the prophecy that his son with Lyanna was the true heir? that's why he sent the kingsguard there? but kingsguard are sworn to defend the king, right? can the prince (Rhaegar) commanded them to protect an unborn child?

The KG protect the royal family. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Kingsguard

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So Rhaegar was so obsessed with the prophecy that his son with Lyanna was the true heir? that's why he sent the kingsguard there? but kingsguard are sworn to defend the king, right? can the prince (Rhaegar) commanded them to protect an unborn child?

Aegon was still Rhaegar's true heir, but Lyanna's child was the fulfillment of the prophecy - union of fire and ice. Aegon would still have been king based on the laws of Westros but Lyanna's child was more important to Rhaegar than who fulfilled the prophecy. Nothing in the various prophecies about the PTWP does it say that the "prince" is the next in line for the throne.. Just that he or she is part of the Targaryen line.

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