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I came at it from entirely the other end, working out there was something not quite right about Jon, counting years on my fingers and figuring him for Aegon - body with head bashed in so as to be unrecognisable...

Came on to the board bursting to share this astonishing insight and discovered R+L=J :bang:

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Do you all think that Azor Ahai and the PTWP is one and the same person? I don't recall anyone admitting so, other than Mel, who has been wrong before.

Because if there are two different persons I tend to beleive that Jon is most likely Azor Ahai and someone else the PTWP (probably Dany).

I understand that even if this is so he can still be of Targ blood but I would like to beleive he is not and either the dragon won't have three heads through some turn of history or that they would be a total surprise.

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As a side note, Rhaegar need not have thought Lyanna's child was his true heir. He thought there had to be "three heads of the dragon" which doesn't mean he thought Aegon and Rhaenys weren't as crucial or even more so than Lyanna's yet unborn child.

But if Rhaegar hadn't changed his mind about the PTWP again, then why go through all the trouble he did with Lyanna? If Rhaegar just needed a third head of the dragon, then he could have "contracted" -for lack of a better word- a common woman to carry the child. Nobody would have minded if Rhaegar was sleeping around or had an acknowledged bastard. The problem was that he ran off with a high born noble woman and hid her in a tower in the middle of Dorne, thereby starting a war. In all likelihood, he decided that he needed to have a child with Lyanna Stark, the union of fire and ice, to fulfill the main prophecy itself. (And I am of the mind that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna for prophecy purposes only. Lyanna probably went because she was infatuated with him, and before her brother and father's deaths, it probably sounded like an adventure.)

Also, the prophecy and the line of succession are two different things. I don't thing that Rhaegar would have ever put Jon ahead of Aegon in the line of succession. In fact, I don't think that Rhaegar even wanted to marry Lyanna as it would complicate the political situation when they returned to the Red Keep. Lyanna probably insisted that they get married before she would sleep with him.

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When the TV show started I hadn't read the books, I didn't even know them - I started watching because a friend told me that an interesting new series was about to air. So I watched the first episodes, and I don't know if it's a coincidence or if Sean Bean knows and he played it that way intentionally but when I saw the scene where Robert and Ned talk about Wylla I thought that Ned was totally lying and there was much more about Jon than it seemed.

Then I became hooked to the show, bought all the books and started reading them (I'm a fast reader, when the TV show ended I had long finished AFFC); midway through AGoT the various "promise me, Ned"'s and "bed of blood" strengthened the suspicions I already had from the TV show, so I gave up to my curiosity and checked on the Internet to see if I was the only one with doubts about Jon. Turned out I wasn't...

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You know when Bran is in the weirwood and he sees the girl and boy fighting is that brandon and lyanna? Also, the reason have put it here is i was wondering if people think the tall, pale knight getting married to the brown haired woman could obviously be rhaegar and lyanna?

I think that the knight is generally accepted to be Duncan the Tall, a former commander of the Kingsguard. In the next Dunk & Egg book, Dunk is heading for Winterfell. Dunk is also noted to be exceptionally tall and to have sired children before becoming a KG. Personally, I think it's unlikely it's Rhaegar as Bran makes no mention of any of the easily distinguishable Targaryen features.

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I think that the knight is generally accepted to be Duncan the Tall, a former commander of the Kingsguard. In the next Dunk & Egg book, Dunk is heading for Winterfell. Dunk is also noted to be exceptionally tall and to have sired children before becoming a KG. Personally, I think it's unlikely it's Rhaegar as Bran makes no mention of any of the easily distinguishable Targaryen features.

Ahh, i just reread the chapter there so thought i'd bring it up. I think im gonna have to read dunk and egg.

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Jon is older than any of Robert's male bastards.

I'm not really sure. The Wiki says that Gendry is of a similar age to Robb Stark. Jon is allegedly younger than Robb, but may not actually be. So it is possible that Gendry is older than Jon.

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I'm not really sure. The Wiki says that Gendry is of a similar age to Robb Stark. Jon is allegedly younger than Robb, but may not actually be. So it is possible that Gendry is older than Jon.

Jon was conceived towards the beginning of the war, but Robert did not enter King's Landing until the end. In fact, there's a good chance that Gendry was conceived after Jon was born.

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Jon was conceived towards the beginning of the war, but Robert did not enter King's Landing until the end. In fact, there's a good chance that Gendry was conceived after Jon was born.

It's possible that Robert went whoring in Kings Landing before the war started. It is possible that Gendry's mother was a camp follower who returned to Kings Landing after she got pregnant by Robert during the war. Anyway it is a moot point anyway, because we know that Jon isn't Robert's bastard.

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It's possible that Robert went whoring in Kings Landing before the war started. It is possible that Gendry's mother was a camp follower who returned to Kings Landing after she got pregnant by Robert during the war. Anyway it is a moot point anyway, because we know that Jon isn't Robert's bastard.

Moot, but interesting. Anyway, the line about "of an age with Robb" doesn't prove anything, as Jon is only 3 months younger than Robb.

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You know I've thought about the R+L=J theory and something kept nagging me about it so I reread the serries and something stuck out for me, in AGoT when Ned confronts Cersei about her relationship with Jamie the conversation seemed a bit... off... Considering the topic up for discussion I assume most normal people's reactions would have a disgust factor that would emerge at some point.

He didn't seem to have one at all, only the 'judgement' thing that he did so well, due to Cersei's effective destruction of the Royal Line.

I've toyed with the idea that Ned and Lyanna had their own incestuous relationship, since the characters that knew them commented on how close they were, I wonder just how close that could be.

Though the problem with this idea is why would Rhagear help Lyanna if she had become pregnant with Ned's child, maybe she did have an affair with Rhagear as well and passed the child off as his...

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You know I've thought about the R+L=J theory and something kept nagging me about it so I reread the serries and something stuck out for me, in AGoT when Ned confronts Cersei about her relationship with Jamie the conversation seemed a bit... off... Considering the topic up for discussion I assume most normal people's reactions would have a disgust factor that would emerge at some point.

He didn't seem to have one at all, only the 'judgement' thing that he did so well, due to Cersei's effective destruction of the Royal Line.

I've toyed with the idea that Ned and Lyanna had their own incestuous relationship, since the characters that knew them commented on how close they were, I wonder just how close that could be.

Though the problem with this idea is why would Rhagear help Lyanna if she had become pregnant with Ned's child, maybe she did have an affair with Rhagear as well and passed the child off as his...

It's highly unlikely that Jon is Ned and Lyanna's son, because Jon was conceived a few months into the war. Ned would have had to meet Lyanna sometime during the war that was being fought in part to get her back, sleep with her, and then somehow get separated from her again. Needless to say, this would be a very contrived scenario.

That said, I agree there's something "off" with Ned and Cersei's conversation, but I don't think it was Ned's reaction to the reveal of Cersei's incest. Instead, I think it was this line, from Ned's internal monologue:

"If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know, He prayed he never would."

Notice that Ned goes to the trouble of listing all of his children in his own mind, but for some reason excludes Jon. I think the best explanation for this is that Jon is not really Ned's son.

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You know I've thought about the R+L=J theory and something kept nagging me about it so I reread the serries and something stuck out for me, in AGoT when Ned confronts Cersei about her relationship with Jamie the conversation seemed a bit... off... Considering the topic up for discussion I assume most normal people's reactions would have a disgust factor that would emerge at some point.

He didn't seem to have one at all, only the 'judgement' thing that he did so well, due to Cersei's effective destruction of the Royal Line.

I've toyed with the idea that Ned and Lyanna had their own incestuous relationship, since the characters that knew them commented on how close they were, I wonder just how close that could be.

Though the problem with this idea is why would Rhagear help Lyanna if she had become pregnant with Ned's child, maybe she did have an affair with Rhagear as well and passed the child off as his...

Besides the fact that Jon can't be his, as explained above, I think that an incestuous affair he had with Lyanna is something that would cross his mind at least once during all the times he thought about her, surely.

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Besides the fact that Jon can't be his, as explained above, I think that an incestuous affair he had with Lyanna is something that would cross his mind at least once during all the times he thought about her, surely.

It's highly unlikely that Jon is Ned and Lyanna's son, because Jon was conceived a few months into the war. Ned would have had to meet Lyanna sometime during the war that was being fought in part to get her back, sleep with her, and then somehow get separated from her again. Needless to say, this would be a very contrived scenario.

That said, I agree there's something "off" with Ned and Cersei's conversation, but I don't think it was Ned's reaction to the reveal of Cersei's incest. Instead, I think it was this line, from Ned's internal monologue:

"If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know, He prayed he never would."

Notice that Ned goes to the trouble of listing all of his children in his own mind, but for some reason excludes Jon. I think the best explanation for this is that Jon is not really Ned's son.

Pretty much what you guys said. Chronologically, if what we think we know is accurate, Ned and Lyanna would've been nowhere near each other when Jon was conceived. To my mind, the confrontation between Ned and Cersei is telling for two reasons:

1. Cersei accuses Ned of fathering Jon with Ashara Dayne, another candidate. Interesting then that Ned doesn't think of Ashara at all, let alone in any context related to Jon.

2. As Dragonfish pointed out, Ned goes through a tally of his kids and excludes Jon. Why? Because Jon's not his son.

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Of course, for #2 it can be explained because he's thinking about his children with Cat, and right after he thinks what Cat could do against Jon, but seems unlikely.

But, as for #1, yeah, I think that Ned not thinking once about Ashara when she was seemingly significant in his life was odd. But then again, he doesn't think once even about his own mother, so it doesn't necessarily means much.

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Of course, for #2 it can be explained because he's thinking about his children with Cat, and right after he thinks what Cat could do against Jon, but seems unlikely.

I think it's unlikely as well, mainly because this interpretation requires (1) that Jon not be on Ned's mind at the time; OR (2) that Ned momentarily forget Jon, until he thinks about Catelyn; OR (3) that Ned exclude Jon from the list due to his bastardy.

Option #1 is clearly false, because Ned thinks of Jon in the very next sentence. So this scenario can be ruled out, I think.

Option #2 doesn't make much sense, because I have a hard time imagining any parent forgetting one of their children, especially if they go to the trouble of specifically listing their children in the order in which they were born. So this just doesn't seem like a realistic scenario.

Finally, option #3 doesn't make much sense either, because Jon's bastardy does not prevent Ned from loving him, nor should it prevent Ned from asking himself what he would do if he had to decide between Jon's life and the life of another child. After all, the fact that Cersei's children are bastards does not prevent her from loving them and doing everything she can to protect them, so why should Jon's bastardy prevent Ned from asking himself if he would do the same in her place? No, I doubt Ned would exclude Jon due to his bastardy. And since all the other explanations are unlikely as well, the likeliest explanation is that Jon is not Ned's son.

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