Jump to content

Poisons that Cause Insanity


Shaggydog Stark

Recommended Posts

The past Targs who were insane seem to have injured themselves more than others. Such as Brightflame and Baelor the Blessed.

But in The Hedge Knight, Aerion Brightflame attacks and breaks the fingers of a random puppet girl, because the dragon did not win in the puppet show. Little Egg also doesn't care if Aerion dies, do to some unspecified things that Aerion has done to him over the years. One of these things include threatening to chop off his genitals (and actually having the knife ready), however, further unspecified instances of abuse are hinted at. Whatever these instances entailed (physical, sexual, or emotional) they were enough for Egg to not care if his brother died.

The "harmless" Baelor the Blessed also imprisoned his innocent sisters in a tower, taking away their freedom because of his own sexual issues. However "innocent" this may look, it was a huge violation of the basic rights of the three harmless princesses. Being physically abused is horrible, but in some ways being imprisoned in a tower with no hope of being let free is even worse.

Finally, Aegon the Unworthy is indicated to have grown paranoid towards the end. Of course, there are strong indications that he was never nuts, just a douchebag. However, a few comments of his description hint that the Targ paranoia could have infected him towards the end.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding Targs, we have been given a long and detailed history of madness, instability and cruelty recurring in the Targ line, do we really need basilisk blood to explain Aerys II? After all he had predecessors in Maegor the Cruel, Aerion Brightflame, Mad Rhaegel and Baelor the Blessed. You can argue none of them went so far as to attempt to burn a city, but none of them had experienced being locked up in a dungeon (Defiance of Duskendale) or being besieged in his own city and faced the prospect of being massacred in his own keep, surely it is understandable why his madness is at a level above his predecessors.

Regarding Cersei, we don't really have a point of reference to judge if there really was a 'rapid decline' as she was only a POV in AFfC. And regarding Joffrey we have been shown that he was always cruel as a child so I don't see a need to find a more exotic explanation, some people are just born sociopaths.

Regarding Lysa, the author has given us a reasonable explanation for her madness, again no need to basilisk blood into the mix. Her jealousy from Petyr's affections for Catelyn, has instilled a deep sense of inadequacy in her. And then the man she is obsessed with is separated from her, and shortly after their child is aborted on her father's orders. Then forcibly married off to an older man, and suffering a series of miscarriages before carrying a child, she is now so desperate for, to term. And then the child turns out sickly. We can also safely assume that Littlefinger nurtured her insecurities and fed her fears for her son, in order to make her more malleable to his plans.

Though I like the Weese's dog theory, as the dog was very loyal we needed an explanation for why she attacked her master, and basilisk blood fits nicely.

I get what you are saying, but I am asking you to take a step back and consider how many insane people there are in one series. I know all the arguments for each character, and I know each character has suffered trauma etc. However, trauma in and of itself does not necessarily cause insanity because most people suffer a traumatic experience sometime in their lives and most people are not insane. Trauma usually causes post traumatic stress, some psychological problems but not necessarily insanity, although I am not ruling out insanity but not every trauma causes insanity.

Cersei is not the first woman to have her child murdered. Most women who lose their children in such tragic conditions do not go insane. The same can be said for Lysa. She was forced into a marriage to a much older man, forced to abort her child, miscarried many times but still these things happen in our real world as well and they do not cause insanity. Anyway, this is a fantasy story and it is a story that uses magic etc. It is not beyond the realm of possibility to assume that in the game of thrones some people resort to poison to take out their opponents. Especially since we know of at least one poison that causes insanity.

Though I like the Weese's dog theory, as the dog was very loyal we needed an explanation for why she attacked her master, and basilisk blood fits nicely.

Yeah that was really good and the credit for it goes to Babeldygob ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But in The Hedge Knight, Aerion Brightflame attacks and breaks the fingers of a random puppet girl, because the dragon did not win in the puppet show. Little Egg also doesn't care if Aerion dies, do to some unspecified things that Aerion has done to him over the years. One of these things include threatening to chop off his genitals (and actually having the knife ready), however, further unspecified instances of abuse are hinted at. Whatever these instances entailed (physical, sexual, or emotional) they were enough for Egg to not care if his brother died.

The "harmless" Baelor the Blessed also imprisoned his innocent sisters in a tower, taking away their freedom because of his own sexual issues. However "innocent" this may look, it was a huge violation of the basic rights of the three harmless princesses. Being physically abused is horrible, but in some ways being imprisoned in a tower with no hope of being let free is even worse.

Finally, Aegon the Unworthy is indicated to have grown paranoid towards the end. Of course, there are strong indications that he was never nuts, just a douchebag. However, a few comments of his description hint that the Targ paranoia could have infected him towards the end.

Okay, I have this habit of thinking everyone can read my thoughts so I sometimes don't express myself properly ;).

What I am trying to say is that we did not see any of the previous Targs attempt to commit mass murder, which is what Aerys was planning. Aerys wanted to burn all of KL with everyone in it. This is insanity on a whole different scale then any of his predecessors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I was rereading AFFC, I came across the Arya chapter where the waif is teaching her about poisons.

"Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons," the waif told her, as she was grinding some with mortar and pestle. "A few grains will slow a pounding heart and stop a hand from shaking, and make a man feel calm and strong. A pinch will grant a night of deep and dreamless sleep. Three pinches will produce that sleep that does not end. The taste is very sweet, so it is best used in cakes and pies and honeyed wines. Here, you can smell the sweetness." She let her have a whiff, then sent her up the ladders to find a red glass bottle. "This is a crueler poison, but tasteless and odorless, hence easier to hide. The tears of Lys, men call it. Dissolved in wine or water, it eats at a man's bowels and belly, and kills as a sickness of those parts. Smell." Arya sniffed, and smelled nothing. The waif put the tears to one side and opened a fat stone jar. "This paste is spiced with basilisk blood. It will give cooked flesh a savory smell, but if eaten it produces violent madness, in beasts as well as men. A mouse will attack a lion after a taste of basilisk blood."

This information bothered me. The two poisons that were mentioned prior to the basilisk paste have both been used in Westeros. For example, sweetsleep is being used on little Robert Arryn and the tears of Lys has been used on Jon Arryn. So we are familiar with both those poisons. Therefore, it is possible that the third poison or a variation of it has also been used that causes insanity, except we, the readers, are unaware of it.

Does anyone else suspect that some of the people who seem insane in ASOIAF, might actually have been poisoned into insanity?

...

I absolutely agree with the idea that the mentions of the poisons are either to give of back story on the ones used already or set us up with a clue for when they will be used later (I always assumed, after I read the Joffrey wedding/Sansa's hairnet bits in SoS, that the CoK prologue was to introduce us to the poison crystals as well). The part that I am having trouble with is the "violent madness" and the analogy used. It makes me think the madness is sudden, and would show up in the story as some sudden, immediate violence. This is just a guess of course, and there is nothing to suggest small doses and built-up effects cannot occur, but until we know otherwise "mice attacking lions" is all we have. I agree with those above about the Targ's predisposition towards madness sans poisoning, and off of the top of my head I cannot think of anyone who suddenly changed into an out-of-character mad(wo)man (Cat's madness was mentioned earlier, but I thought it was pretty understandable). I think the paste might be a set-up or clue for something yet to come.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get what you are saying, but I am asking you to take a step back and consider how many insane people there are in one series. I know all the arguments for each character, and I know each character has suffered trauma etc. However, trauma in and of itself does not necessarily cause insanity because most people suffer a traumatic experience sometime in their lives and most people are not insane. Trauma usually causes post traumatic stress, some psychological problems but not necessarily insanity, although I am not ruling out insanity but not every trauma causes insanity.

Cersei is not the first woman to have her child murdered. Most women who lose their children in such tragic conditions do not go insane. The same can be said for Lysa. She was forced into a marriage to a much older man, forced to abort her child, miscarried many times but still these things happen in our real world as well and they do not cause insanity. Anyway, this is a fantasy story and it is a story that uses magic etc. It is not beyond the realm of possibility to assume that in the game of thrones some people resort to poison to take out their opponents. Especially since we know of at least one poison that causes insanity.

But these are the reasons explicitly presented to us by the author, and it is satisfactory in my opinion. Different people react to trauma in different ways, what has been shown of the majority of characters we are discussing is that they seem to be people who do not 'cope well'.

Yes the use of poison is possible, but I don't see a necessity for it in narrative terms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I am trying to say is that we did not see any of the previous Targs attempt to commit mass murder, which is what Aerys was planning. Aerys wanted to burn all of KL with everyone in it. This is insanity on a whole different scale then any of his predecessors.

I think I've addressed this in my post as he had more traumatic experiences to exacerbate what ever preexisting condition and genetic predisposition he had to insanity. And I assume Varys made sure to fan his paranoia to new heights if Aerys had shown signs of mellowing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: were the Targs so crazy before Aerys-- I'd say the answer to that would be a resounding "yes." In addition to the (non-cannon) sources we have detailing the insanity of some of the past members of the royal Targ family, we have evidence in The Hedge Knight that that Aerion Brightfire guy was clearly nuts. (And just to make this 150 percent clear, he ended up drinking wildfire.) Also, during his conversation with Dany (and at several other instances throughout the book), Barristan notes that insanity was widely known to be something that ran in the Targs family-- and that even the sane Targs themselves were aware of this (a flip of the coin at the birth of every Targ, etc.)

There are a number of factors that make me suspect that the insanity of Viserys and his father was genetic, rather than the result of a poisoning. First and foremost, their particular brand of madness was not characterized simply by wildness and a feeling of invincibility (a lion would attack a mouse, etc.) It was also characterized by extreme paranoia (in Aery's case, which led to timidity rather than feelings of invincibility.) But with the exception of the paranoia and delusions of persecution, the mental illnesses of Aerys and his son were very similar. Both seem to have been able to, initially, live with mostly "normal" behavior, punctuated with, as Barristan notes, occasional "lapses." However, in both cases, true, visible madness was brought on by extreme stress, trauma, and feelings of personal failure. For Aerys, this came on later in life, after his getting kidnapped. For Viserys, this started much earlier—the kid lost his family, his home, and his kingdom and was thrown into exile at the age of 7 or 8; it could be argued that his entire life from this time onwards was a stressful, traumatic event.

Anyway, after the onset, both Viserys and Aerys showed a sort of madness characterized by instability, bursts of rage, and violence to those around them (especially those weaker than them, vulnerable and within their power.) Interestingly, Cersei’s mental instability, which seems to have appeared in AFFC (she was mildly paranoid in earlier books, however, considering the behavior of Tyrion and his threats, her paranoia—or simply distrust—seems understandable, imo) is strikingly similar to that of Viserys and, even more, that of Aerys. It was brought on by traumatic, horrible events (the death of Joffrey, and her failure to save him.) It is characterized by paranoia, an increase in violence, and a sudden, inexplicable, almost sexual love for fire. Make of that what you will, but after ADWD, I do indeed suspect (for the first time, earlier I would have called it crackpot) that Cersei inherited her mental illness from her father. And I am not talking about Lord Tywin, here.

Re: Illario poisoning Viserys: I think it’s pretty clear that Illario and Varys had a hand in Viserys death, but not in any direct way. They didn’t murder him. I think they simply sent him off with the Dorthraki, knowing well that his weakness, instability, lack of military training and tendency towards irrational violence would very likely lead to his death. They gave him enough rope, and allowed him to hang himself with it. They never wanted to make him king; in fact, they almost surely wanted him out of the way, to improve things for their “Aegon” (pretender.) However, I would be shocked if they poisoned him.

As for Aerys, I do think Varys whispered in his ear, increasing his paranoia. However, Aerys was clearly a few cards short of a stack to begin with. Varys didn’t cause that (by poisoning or any other way) he simply aggravated it further.

It is possible that Cercei is a Targaryen bastard and that's why she was acting like she did. I think it's also a possibility that Varys tried to drive her crazy with poison.

I know about the Targaryen history too, and I don't see how it makes it impossible that Aerys was poisoned. Their history of insanity does not contradict that in any way. The hereditary insanity does not always come 100% or 0, and we don't know how insane Aerys was or would have been without "help" (if he was poisoned). We are speculating here, it's not matter of facts, it's a matter of what we think the author is capable of and looking into different possibilities. I never say I'm 100% right about anything not written. I don't want to draw conclusions from speculations.

Yes, she was a bit nuts as a kid and so was Cersei. I am a bit worried about Robert Arryn as well. In AFFC there seems to be the onset of insanity and how convenient that LF is so close by:

See, there is too much circumstantial evidence not to become suspicious. Neither the Tully nor the Arryns are noted for their insanity, so why Lysa and Robert?

I think Sweetrobin is the person most likely to have been poisoned, that quote is quite telling.

The only one else I can think of is Catelyn, but it's not very relevant if she was poisoned I think, considering what then happened :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I absolutely agree with the idea that the mentions of the poisons are either to give of back story on the ones used already or set us up with a clue for when they will be used later (I always assumed, after I read the Joffrey wedding/Sansa's hairnet bits in SoS, that the CoK prologue was to introduce us to the poison crystals as well). The part that I am having trouble with is the "violent madness" and the analogy used. It makes me think the madness is sudden, and would show up in the story as some sudden, immediate violence. This is just a guess of course, and there is nothing to suggest small doses and built-up effects cannot occur, but until we know otherwise "mice attacking lions" is all we have. I agree with those above about the Targ's predisposition towards madness sans poisoning, and off of the top of my head I cannot think of anyone who suddenly changed into an out-of-character mad(wo)man (Cat's madness was mentioned earlier, but I thought it was pretty understandable). I think the paste might be a set-up or clue for something yet to come.

This is very plausible and this is why I wanted to see what different people made of the whole poison thing. Maybe we are being set up for something big. However, it also tells me that we don't know enough about the poisons in ASOIAF and that there might be things going on which we think we understand but don't have all the details.

But these are the reasons explicitly presented to us by the author, and it is satisfactory in my opinion. Different people react to trauma in different ways, what has been shown of the majority of characters we are discussing is that they seem to be people who do not 'cope well'.

Yes the use of poison is possible, but I don't see a necessity for it in narrative terms.

I have a suspicion that perhaps these poisons would be used on people who are traumatized to make it more believable. I mean if a perfectly normal person who is known not to have had any trauma whatsoever in his life goes bat-crazy people might get a bit suspicious. It is better to use the poison on people who are considered more susceptible if you want to take them out of the game. It's just a different way of looking at things. Poison them and let them dig their own graves, so to speak.

I think I've addressed this in my post as he had more traumatic experiences to exacerbate what ever preexisting condition and genetic predisposition he had to insanity. And I assume Varys made sure to fan his paranoia to new heights if Aerys had shown signs of mellowing.

Aerys is the craziest of all the Targs. His insanity lost him his throne. I agree he had a traumatic experience being abducted in Duskendale, etc. I realize Varys was fanning the flames of his insanity but could he or Pycelle have also helped him along the road with a little extra something? Who knows?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is possible that Cercei is a Targaryen bastard and that's why she was acting like she did. I think it's also a possibility that Varys tried to drive her crazy with poison.

I know about the Targaryen history too, and I don't see how it makes it impossible that Aerys was poisoned. Their history of insanity does not contradict that in any way. The hereditary insanity does not always come 100% or 0, and we don't know how insane Aerys was or would have been without "help" (if he was poisoned). We are speculating here, it's not matter of facts, it's a matter of what we think the author is capable of and looking into different possibilities. I never say I'm 100% right about anything not written. I don't want to draw conclusions from speculations.

I think Sweetrobin is the person most likely to have been poisoned, that quote is quite telling.

The only one else I can think of is Catelyn, but it's not very relevant if she was poisoned I think, considering what then happened :)

No Cat's insanity I think was the only one I truly believe. IIRC she told Robb before the RW that he was all she was living for and she would not survive if anything happened to him. I don't remember the exact words but it was something like this.

Someone is trying to drive Sweetrobin insane. I don't believe he is imagining the whole singing thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the idea of poisons, especially in the context of the game of thrones, where IRL it has always been a common weapon.

However, I strongly resist the temptation to absolve certain despicable characters of despicable acts because of "madness" caused by either trauma or poison.

Viserys, Lysa and Cersai behave like assholes because they are assholes. Their common characteristics are all-consuming narcissism and self-destructive stupidity.

Viserys doesn't care about Dany except as coin with which to buy an army; Lysa doesn't care about Robert except as a prop to make people feel sorry for her and cover up her guilty conscience, and Cersei doesn't care about her children except as fronts for her behind-the-throne power plays.

If I were going to use poison on any of those three, it would be something horrifically painful and fatal, like the manticore poison Oberyn used on Gregor.

The only likely target of a madness-creating poison is Aerys, but that apparently went wrong, allowing Aerys to murder too many people before somebody finally killed him.

The great drawback to a madness-creating poison, as opposed to a simply fatal one, is that the consequences are unpredictable. If you're trying to sow chaos, then fine - poison away. But if you're seeking a specific outcome, madness is singularly ineffective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the idea of poisons, especially in the context of the game of thrones, where IRL it has always been a common weapon.

However, I strongly resist the temptation to absolve certain despicable characters of despicable acts because of "madness" caused by either trauma or poison.

Viserys, Lysa and Cersai behave like assholes because they are assholes. Their common characteristics are all-consuming narcissism and self-destructive stupidity.

Viserys doesn't care about Dany except as coin with which to buy an army; Lysa doesn't care about Robert except as a prop to make people feel sorry for her and cover up her guilty conscience, and Cersei doesn't care about her children except as fronts for her behind-the-throne power plays.

If I were going to use poison on any of those three, it would be something horrifically painful and fatal, like the manticore poison Oberyn used on Gregor.

The only likely target of a madness-creating poison is Aerys, but that apparently went wrong, allowing Aerys to murder too many people before somebody finally killed him.

The great drawback to a madness-creating poison, as opposed to a simply fatal one, is that the consequences are unpredictable. If you're trying to sow chaos, then fine - poison away. But if you're seeking a specific outcome, madness is singularly ineffective.

Very good points! As Eira has pointed out we don't even know for certain if anyone has been poisoned but we are speculating here, given the information we got from Arya's chapter.

I am not trying to absolve anyone, I am only trying to figure out if the poison or a variation of it has been used, who would be the likely suspect. It struck me that there were too many insane people for one story. I like your theory of Aerys and causing chaos, it seems very possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like Yellow dog wrote, poison has been common in history, in real life game of thrones. I am trying to figure out in what cases, that we have not been told of yet, in the story this is possible, because it is rather likely that there are such cases. GRRM is not known for his disclosure, the opposite in fact.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that poison is the reason for any characters cruelty or low moral. I would simply like to look at the characters that are prone to madness and discuss if they could have been dealt poison and how, why and by whom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like Yellow dog wrote, poison has been common in history, in real life game of thrones. I am trying to figure out in what cases, that we have not been told of yet, in the story this is possible, because it is rather likely that there are such cases. GRRM is not known for his disclosure, the opposite in fact.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that poison is the reason for any characters cruelty or low moral. I would simply like to look at the characters that are prone to madness and discuss if they could have been dealt poison and how, why and by whom.

I completely agree, and I think Shaggydog's finding is certainly compelling evidence that one or more persons in Westeros may have indeed been poisoned using this method.

I am most interested in two specific cases: Viserys and Lysa. Now as Eira said above, suggesting that these people have been poisoned isn't meant to negate their cruelty and other despicable acts. Certainly they didn't need to be crazy to commit these actions, but I think the craziness gave others a good excuse to get rid of them.

I think that the poison might operate differently in humans. Remember, a mouse is a very small creature, but humans have complex brains and nervous systems which would necessarily slow the effects of the poison. So in that comparison, it could be that the poison causes immediate, rash madness, or it could be that it works quicker on smaller animals.

I've always been puzzled about why Varys and Illyrio would take the chance to send Viserys with the Dothraki if they really wanted to get rid of him and place Aegon on the throne. Yes, they may have figured that he would seal his own demise because of his nature and attitudes, but this was still not a sure bet. And as we saw in ADWD, Varys is a man who strives on chaos and goes out of his way to make sure that the conditions are right for it. So, I think it is highly possible that Illyrio could have been poisoning Viserys when he sheltered them in Pentos. (Could Jorah have been finishing the job for them along the way with the Dothraki?) And Viserys often went off drinking alone by himself in the markets, the perfect opportunity for someone to slip something into his drink, as indeed we saw the attempted poisoning of Dany by the wineseller.

The night he threatens Dany and gets himself killed, Viserys displayed an almost unbelievable level of stupidity and boldness. Threatening to cut the child of the Khal out of your sister's belly doesn't even seem to be something a normally crazy man would do. It went straight into the bounds of Aerys level insanity. Are we to believe that Viserys simply declined so rapidly? For sure he had a difficult childhood, but he was on the verge of reclaiming his birthright - the thing he had wanted for so long. I know he was unstable, cruel and mean, but would he have been so suicidal? Perhaps, or perhaps not...

As for Lysa, I am more certain that LF could indeed have been poisoning her. It seems like something he would do to ensure that her paranoia continued to worsen. I've always suspected that his little kissing scene with Sansa was orchestrated for Lysa's benefit. Perhaps he spied her looking down from the window. LF would have known that in order for his plans to work, he needed to get rid of Lysa quickly, and also to do it in a way that wouldn't raise Sansa's suspicions. Perhaps he was counting on just the right thing to set her over the edge, her reactions obviously exacerbated by the poison's effects. This way, Sansa would again see him as her protector and his control over her strengthened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, I have this habit of thinking everyone can read my thoughts so I sometimes don't express myself properly ;).

What I am trying to say is that we did not see any of the previous Targs attempt to commit mass murder, which is what Aerys was planning. Aerys wanted to burn all of KL with everyone in it. This is insanity on a whole different scale then any of his predecessors.

I'd say that Aerion brightflame's insanity never reached the heights of Aerys's simply because he never had as much power as Aerys did. Aerion was willing to attack a girl and break her fingers because the dragon puppet lost in her puppet show. I think such a person could have easily been willing to burn down all of Kings Landing if her were on the verge of losing it to an usurper, about to take his throne. Hell, from what we know about Aerion, he probably would have burned down kings landing for far, far less reason than Aerys did. In the end, Aerys destruction of Kings Landing was a sort of (mass) murder suicide. Knowing that he was about to be usurped by Robert Baratheon and almost surely killed, Aerys decided to take all of Kings Landing with him.

So, no, I don't agree that Aerys exhibited "insanity on a whole different scale" from that of Aerion. I'd say he simply had greater power, and greater reign for his madness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very clever find. I've always wondered about this myself.

There are theories that some of the more colorful Roman Emperors suffered from lead poisoning, like Caligula and Nero, for example. This, of course, was unintentional, as the Romans used lead in their drinking cups and plumbing, but it gets to the same point; it produces an unnatural madness in people who might have otherwise been perfectly sane and rational.

But, were the Targaryens who came before Aerys perfectly sane and rational people? I'd have to say "no". There are past examples of Targaryen madness, long before Varys ever showed up in court. And, similarly, we know that many Targaryens before Aerys, even some that did seem to be perfectly sane, like Aegon V, were obsessed with dragons and wildfire. So, I highly doubt those facets of Aerys's personality were brought about artificially.

With that being said, I could be totally wrong. We know Varys used to whisper in Aerys's ear about Rhaegar, so perhaps he was behind it all.

My theory, however, is that Varys himself is a Targaryen, or a Blackfyre, and therefore can't kills Targs himself without accruing the dreaded "kinslayer" label. That's why he sent Dany and Viserys off with the Dothraki, because he couldn't, in good conscience, kill them himself. And by arranging marriage for Dany, he was technically giving her "life" instead of "death"... albeit, a very dangerous life, far away from him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry for the dickstep Queen Cersei I... didn't see you had brought up, in much greater detail, some of the points I was trying to make in my post.

Aerion Brightflame... that's who I was trying to think of. And even though his younger brother, Aegon V (i.e. Egg) was a much more sane individual, he even burned himself to death at Summerhall, so go figure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


It is possible that Cercei is a Targaryen bastard and that's why she was acting like she did. I think it's also a possibility that Varys tried to drive her crazy with poison.
I know about the Targaryen history too, and I don't see how it makes it impossible that Aerys was poisoned. Their history of insanity does not contradict that in any way. The hereditary insanity does not always come 100% or 0, and we don't know how insane Aerys was or would have been without "help" (if he was poisoned). We are speculating here, it's not matter of facts, it's a matter of what we think the author is capable of and looking into different possibilities. I never say I'm 100% right about anything not written 


Yes, of course. And I also know that you (and pretty much everyone else here) are well aware of the Targ history. I was just bringing in those details to better explain my own position on the matter—why I feel that, under the circumstances, inherited insanity is a more plausible explanation for the madness of Viserys and Aerys than poison.

I never thought that you were implying that you were 100 percent right, rather than putting forth a theory for discussion. My discussion of the Targs was merely me putting my two cents in why the poison hypothesis seemed unlikely to me.


 So in that comparison, it could be that the poison causes immediate, rash madness, or it could be that it works quicker on smaller animals.

I've always been puzzled about why Varys and Illyrio would take the chance to send Viserys with the Dothraki if they really wanted to get rid of him and place Aegon on the throne. Yes, they may have figured that he would seal his own demise because of his nature and attitudes, but this was still not a sure bet. 


I’d say it was damn near sure. Viserys was weak, emotionally unstable, and violent to those weaker than him, particularly his sister. (His beatings of her and his threats were not new, but something that had gone on for their entire lives, according to some of Danys reflections.) Take such a man and throw him into a harsh, brutal environment with a violent, brutal people and you have a recipe for disaster. Then add in the fact that Viserys thinks of himself as a king, but has no skills (as a horseman or warrior) that the Dothraki will respect. He will live amongst them expecting to be treated as a king, they will see him as a joke. Then add in the fact that he has a tendency to physically abuse the beautiful sister he is giving to Khal Drogo as a queen, and the recipe for disaster becomes danm near certain. It’s possible that he was poisoned, but I honestly don’t see why it would be necessary.

Also strange (if we’re going with the “Viserys was poisoned by Illario, and thus lost it” scenario, is the fact that Viserys (according to both Danerys and Barristan) has been exhibiting signs of madness since early childhood. Did Varys poison him in his childhood, perhaps when he was a baby? (Because Barristan, who was around Viserys for the first 7 or 8 years of his life, testified that, despite his mother’s attempts to shelter Viserys, there were certain times when it was clear that all was not right in the boys head.)

Also, there’s the fact that Viserys and Aerys’s mentall illness resembled each other in so many ways. As Illaryio says of Viserys, (in response to accusations that he was “a fool,” “he was his father’s son.” I guess it’s certainly possible that Varys poisoned both Aerys and later Viserys (or had Illaryio do so.)

.

The night he threatens Dany and gets himself killed, Viserys displayed an almost unbelievable level of stupidity and boldness. Threatening to cut the child of the Khal out of your sister's belly doesn't even seem to be something a normally crazy man would do..


Actually, I have an uncle with paranoid schizophrenia, and I can tell you that this is exactly like something “a crazy man would do.” Or, to be more accurate, this sounds like something that someone suffering from some severe form of mental illness would do, if unmedicated and worked up properly.

And, though it could be argued that Viserys went from zero to nutters in a few hours, here, it seems to me that he was clearly a ticking time bomb all along. Add in rage, frustration, and copious amounts of alcohol, and he’s going to go off.

*Edited to add: Reading over my post, I want to clarify that I'm not implying that all- or most-- people with serious mental illnesses will become dangerous and violent at the drop of a hat. No need to perpetuate such nasty, eroneous stereotypes. But I think in Viserys specific case, it certainly fits. (Especially taking into account his history of violence.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I completely agree, and I think Shaggydog's finding is certainly compelling evidence that one or more persons in Westeros may have indeed been poisoned using this method.

I am most interested in two specific cases: Viserys and Lysa. Now as Eira said above, suggesting that these people have been poisoned isn't meant to negate their cruelty and other despicable acts. Certainly they didn't need to be crazy to commit these actions, but I think the craziness gave others a good excuse to get rid of them.

I think that the poison might operate differently in humans. Remember, a mouse is a very small creature, but humans have complex brains and nervous systems which would necessarily slow the effects of the poison. So in that comparison, it could be that the poison causes immediate, rash madness, or it could be that it works quicker on smaller animals.

Finally some speculation! ;). Very good point, it could work differently on humans. The only real example we have of its effects is on Weese's dog as seen on page one of this thread. Jaqen seems to have used it on him and the effects are: he is feeds off Weese's body, which is very gross but he is does not attack anyone.

I've always been puzzled about why Varys and Illyrio would take the chance to send Viserys with the Dothraki if they really wanted to get rid of him and place Aegon on the throne. Yes, they may have figured that he would seal his own demise because of his nature and attitudes, but this was still not a sure bet. And as we saw in ADWD, Varys is a man who strives on chaos and goes out of his way to make sure that the conditions are right for it. So, I think it is highly possible that Illyrio could have been poisoning Viserys when he sheltered them in Pentos. (Could Jorah have been finishing the job for them along the way with the Dothraki?) And Viserys often went off drinking alone by himself in the markets, the perfect opportunity for someone to slip something into his drink, as indeed we saw the attempted poisoning of Dany by the wineseller.

I agree one of the people who jumped at me when I read about the paste was Viserys. Viserys as a child was exhibiting signs of madness according to Selmy. Varys was in KL and could have been poisoning him. Dany remembers times when he was kind and protective. This was when they were not in KL and away from both Varys and Illyrio. We meet Viserys when he and Dany are in Illyrio's house and he was quite repugnant so could Illyrio have resumed the poisoning? I too have been wondering about why Illyrio would allow him to travel with Dany, it would have been much better if they had just killed him to ensure that Aegon would not have any rivals. Wasn't it Jorah who advised Viserys to stay in Pentos? Perhaps he did not relish the task Varys had given him. And as you point out, slipping poison into food or drink is pretty easy.

The night he threatens Dany and gets himself killed, Viserys displayed an almost unbelievable level of stupidity and boldness. Threatening to cut the child of the Khal out of your sister's belly doesn't even seem to be something a normally crazy man would do. It went straight into the bounds of Aerys level insanity. Are we to believe that Viserys simply declined so rapidly? For sure he had a difficult childhood, but he was on the verge of reclaiming his birthright - the thing he had wanted for so long. I know he was unstable, cruel and mean, but would he have been so suicidal? Perhaps, or perhaps not...

This is the reason that Viserys was the first person I thought of. It fits in with "a mouse attacking a lion". Even Viserys was not that stupid.

As for Lysa, I am more certain that LF could indeed have been poisoning her. It seems like something he would do to ensure that her paranoia continued to worsen. I've always suspected that his little kissing scene with Sansa was orchestrated for Lysa's benefit. Perhaps he spied her looking down from the window. LF would have known that in order for his plans to work, he needed to get rid of Lysa quickly, and also to do it in a way that wouldn't raise Sansa's suspicions. Perhaps he was counting on just the right thing to set her over the edge, her reactions obviously exacerbated by the poison's effects. This way, Sansa would again see him as her protector and his control over her strengthened.

I suspect this as well and as Eira has pointed out, it could have been a one time dosage. The motive, he has plans in which Lysa does not figure. The way he goes about killing her achieves two things; 1) it gives him a good excuse to kill her, 2) he will be perceived as a protector in Sansa's eyes and win her to his side. I am sure he remembers from his previous conversation with Sansa in AGOT how Sansa believes in songs and heroes and I am sure that Ser Dontos told him all about Florian and Jonquil. Therefore, he is trying to be a hero/protector in her eyes. I also think he knew Lysa was watching.

In addition, he is already behind the poisoning of Jon and Robert Arryn so why not a third Arryn? Have you also noticed that Robert seems to be losing his mind? I have posted a passage from AFFC in a previous post on the first page of this thread, of how he hears singing even though Marillion is dead. I don't think he is imagining this. I think LF is behind it and wants to push him over the edge. Even Sansa thinks Robert might be going mad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...