Poisons that Cause Insanity

[Shaggydog Stark]

I'd say that Aerion brightflame's insanity never reached the heights of Aerys's simply because he never had as much power as Aerys did. Aerion was willing to attack a girl and break her fingers because the dragon puppet lost in her puppet show. I think such a person could have easily been willing to burn down all of Kings Landing if her were on the verge of losing it to an usurper, about to take his throne. Hell, from what we know about Aerion, he probably would have burned down kings landing for far, far less reason than Aerys did. In the end, Aerys destruction of Kings Landing was a sort of (mass) murder suicide. Knowing that he was about to be usurped by Robert Baratheon and almost surely killed, Aerys decided to take all of Kings Landing with him.

So, no, I don't agree that Aerys exhibited "insanity on a whole different scale" from that of Aerion. I'd say he simply had greater power, and greater reign for his madness.

You are speculating here about Brightflame just like we are speculating about the poison ;)

[Eyron]

I think the craziness gave others a good excuse to get rid of them.

This.

It's the only reason to poison anyone in the manner of the suggested cases of poisoning. Some are easier targets as Shaggydog mentioned, not everyone can suddenly act insane without suspicions being raised, for those that are known as sane and rational other methods must be used.

I've always been puzzled about why Varys and Illyrio would take the chance to send Viserys with the Dothraki if they really wanted to get rid of him and place Aegon on the throne. Yes, they may have figured that he would seal his own demise because of his nature and attitudes, but this was still not a sure bet. And as we saw in ADWD, Varys is a man who strives on chaos and goes out of his way to make sure that the conditions are right for it. So, I think it is highly possible that Illyrio could have been poisoning Viserys when he sheltered them in Pentos. (Could Jorah have been finishing the job for them along the way with the Dothraki?) And Viserys often went off drinking alone by himself in the markets, the perfect opportunity for someone to slip something into his drink, as indeed we saw the attempted poisoning of Dany by the wineseller.

The night he threatens Dany and gets himself killed, Viserys displayed an almost unbelievable level of stupidity and boldness. Threatening to cut the child of the Khal out of your sister's belly doesn't even seem to be something a normally crazy man would do. It went straight into the bounds of Aerys level insanity. Are we to believe that Viserys simply declined so rapidly? For sure he had a difficult childhood, but he was on the verge of reclaiming his birthright - the thing he had wanted for so long. I know he was unstable, cruel and mean, but would he have been so suicidal? Perhaps, or perhaps not...

Yes, it is puzzling why they let Viserys go with the possibility that he could get the Dothraki to fight for him (or Dany) and go to Westeros with an army. I have not seen any compelling explanation for this, so that gives us room for speculation. As you say, Varys usually plays it safe and giving Viserys this opportunity is a gamble very unlike him. It's possible Jorah was involved in something like this also, it could have been a requirement in the deal with Varys, since it was Varys that dictated his chances for the royal pardon. I think this is the strongest case for possible poisoning, because of the players involved and their motive.

As for Lysa, I am more certain that LF could indeed have been poisoning her. It seems like something he would do to ensure that her paranoia continued to worsen. I've always suspected that his little kissing scene with Sansa was orchestrated for Lysa's benefit. Perhaps he spied her looking down from the window. LF would have known that in order for his plans to work, he needed to get rid of Lysa quickly, and also to do it in a way that wouldn't raise Sansa's suspicions. Perhaps he was counting on just the right thing to set her over the edge, her reactions obviously exacerbated by the poison's effects. This way, Sansa would again see him as her protector and his control over her strengthened.

In this case I think there are circumstances that make me think LF did not have to do much poisoning, he could control her with his promises and through manipulating her feelings for him. He would not want her to loose control and the loyalty of the lords of the Vale, so it would be a risky game. Maybe he had to do more than this but I think this is less likely than with Viserys.

I would guess that there are other sorts of poison that could have been used, but Lysa seemed more fearful and stupid than crazy to me, except when she wanted to push Sansa out the moondoor.

But, were the Targaryens who came before Aerys perfectly sane and rational people? I'd have to say "no". There are past examples of Targaryen madness, long before Varys ever showed up in court. And, similarly, we know that many Targaryens before Aerys, even some that did seem to be perfectly sane, like Aegon V, were obsessed with dragons and wildfire. So, I highly doubt those facets of Aerys's personality were brought about artificially.

No one on this thread ever said that the other Targs were sane people, and no one ever said that Aerys crazy ideas came from poisoning.

What we have said is that some one could have wanted him to screw up completely and get himself killed by accelerating his madness, and with the background that he is known as a crazy person it could be done without suspicion.

Yes, of course. And I also know that you (and pretty much everyone else here) are well aware of the Targ history. I was just bringing in those details to better explain my own position on the matter—why I feel that, under the circumstances, inherited insanity is a more plausible explanation for the madness of Viserys and Aerys than poison.

I never thought that you were implying that you were 100 percent right, rather than putting forth a theory for discussion. My discussion of the Targs was merely me putting my two cents in why the poison hypothesis seemed unlikely to me.

Maybe we will get to this conclusion too after probing the possibilities deep enough. When trying a hypothesis I think it is a good method to allow for different outcomes and not invest already permanent personal opinions since it can narrow the result and risk it's accuracy. I'm not at all suggesting that the use of poisoning is the only explanation for the cases we are debating.

I agree that Aerys could well have done all his madman actions out of pure insanity, but I think there is a good motive an opportunity for Varys to exploit this madness for his own gain and I think Varys is likely do do such a thing. So that is the formost reason I think it is a likely possibility.

I could be wrong about Aerys being the craziest Targ, it's just the impressions I had from his description and what we were told from Jaimes POV about him being totally deranged in every aspect of his life in the end

I’d say it was damn near sure. Viserys was weak, emotionally unstable, and violent to those weaker than him, particularly his sister. (His beatings of her and his threats were not new, but something that had gone on for their entire lives, according to some of Danys reflections.) Take such a man and throw him into a harsh, brutal environment with a violent, brutal people and you have a recipe for disaster. Then add in the fact that Viserys thinks of himself as a king, but has no skills (as a horseman or warrior) that the Dothraki will respect. He will live amongst them expecting to be treated as a king, they will see him as a joke. Then add in the fact that he has a tendency to physically abuse the beautiful sister he is giving to Khal Drogo as a queen, and the recipe for disaster becomes danm near certain. It’s possible that he was poisoned, but I honestly don’t see why it would be necessary.

Also strange (if we’re going with the “Viserys was poisoned by Illario, and thus lost it” scenario, is the fact that Viserys (according to both Danerys and Barristan) has been exhibiting signs of madness since early childhood. Did Varys poison him in his childhood, perhaps when he was a baby? (Because Barristan, who was around Viserys for the first 7 or 8 years of his life, testified that, despite his mother’s attempts to shelter Viserys, there were certain times when it was clear that all was not right in the boys head.)

And, though it could be argued that Viserys went from zero to nutters in a few hours, here, it seems to me that he was clearly a ticking time bomb all along. Add in rage, frustration, and copious amounts of alcohol, and he’s going to go off.

This is very possible. I think Viserys was a bit mad all along and this plan could have worked out without intervention from Varys and Illyrio. It would be a risk for them though, it all depends on how much they know about the stage of Viserys illness and how he would handle himself with the Dothraki. I assume they knew plenty from sheltering him and Varys interaction with Aerys. But they could have made sure he was going to loose control and eliminated the risk. I don't know which theory is the more likely concerning the two players involved, but I don't think they would hesitate to do it if they had the chance, since it's not a poison that would kill him. Instead he would get himself killed.

[brashcandy]

Agreed Eira. The point is that there is room for speculation that we never had before. And using poison on the Targs would be the perfect cover - they're already thought of as crazy, so when they become absolutely deranged it won't raise suspicions.

[Eyron]

Agreed Eira. The point is that there is room for speculation that we never had before. And using poison on the Targs would be the perfect cover - they're already thought of as crazy, so when they become absolutely deranged it won't raise suspicions.

And we do love our speculations! :D

Sorry for the humongous post above, there were posts poping up while I was writing...

[Shaggydog Stark]

Since we are speculating and I am expecting to be battered here but the thought just won't let go of me ;). With regard to the Targs history of insanity does anyone else think it might somehow be related to the Citadel? We know they were poisoning the dragons to probably get rid of them and magic, could they have also been poisoning the Targs as well? The Targs and dragons seem to be connected. So perhaps all this history of insanity is fake and somehow Varys figured out that the Citadel was doing this and decided to use the same method? The Citadel would have the perfect cover, incest breeds insanity.

Okay I am ducking now! :lol:

[Eyron]

Since we are speculating and I am expecting to be battered here but the thought just won't let go of me ;). With regard to the Targs history of insanity does anyone else think it might somehow be related to the Citadel? We know they were poisoning the dragons to probably get rid of them and magic, could they have also been poisoning the Targs as well? The Targs and dragons seem to be connected. So perhaps all this history of insanity is fake and somehow Varys figured out that the Citadel was doing this and decided to use the same method? The Citadel would have the perfect cover, incest breeds insanity.

Okay I am ducking now! :lol:

I was thinking of Pycelle being involved before, but that was when I was arguing with myself over Cerceis case.

I did not think in these lines though! We think the Citadel were in involved in killing the dragons, so they could be involved in the demise of the Targs as well. The maester have access to the poisons and access to the royal family at all times, they even prepare their medicines.

Did the Targs always have a maester like all the other houses? I mean did they never suspect their involvement in killing the dragons? I don't think I ever heard it mentioned that they got rid of the maester, at least Aerys didn't. And Pycelle where certainly pro Lannister. I wonder how he would have felt about Cercei being Aerys daughter :D

[Shaggydog Stark]

I was thinking of Pycelle being involved before, but that was when I was arguing with myself over Cerceis case.

I did not think in these lines though! We think the Citadel were in involved in killing the dragons, so they could be involved in the demise of the Targs as well. The maester have access to the poisons and access to the royal family at all times, they even prepare their medicines.

Did the Targs always have a maester like all the other houses? I mean did they never suspect their involvement in killing the dragons? I don't think I ever heard it mentioned that they got rid of the maester, at least Aerys didn't. And Pycelle where certainly pro Lannister. I wonder how he would have felt about Cercei being Aerys daughter :D

I believe they did have maesters. I really think it would be impossible to get rid of dragons completely without the Targs. Especially since they were always trying to revive dragons. So I thought it would be possible that they were poisoning the Targs, however, it is very far fetched as a crackpot theory because wouldn't they just kill them instead of letting them go insane. But I just had to share the thought ;)

Btw, I do not believe that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys's children. That theory is even more crackpot than my theory :laugh:

[Eyron]

They could have had reasons for making the Targs seem mad, instead of just killing them, but at the moment I only have a vague idea and at this hour my brain is not at it's peak. I'll come back to it when it makes sense :)

I don't know what I believe about the bastardry (new word for our aSoIaF dictionary) of Aerys. I hope we will not see that happen (Jon and Aegon is enough material for speculative parentage) but that could be a twist to the backstory that would have funny implications.

Some people discussed at another thread if Baratheon was the Valyrian word for bastard (I don't think so but it was a good idea), if so - Joffrey Bastard who was a bastard and possibly part Targ would have sat on the throne in the name of the house of Lannister...

[Shaggydog Stark]

I would be interested in any theories that you can come up with. It would be cool if we can tie in the citadel to the poisoning. If anyone can do it, it's you ;).

I really hope Cersei and Jaime are not Aerys'. That will be really lame. As you say we already have Jon and Aegon. Do you think Aegon is Rhaegar's? I got the distinct impression that he was a fake. I thought he was Illyrio's son, but I can't remember why I came to that conclusion. I will remember once I reread ADWD. Bastardy it is :)

That will also make all Baratheons bastards like Robert, Stannis and Renly. Nope don't like it! I like Joffrey the bastard though :)

The board is so slow tonight and giving me lots of problems and my eyes are burning. I think I will call it a day/night.

[Eyron]

We will get back to the citadel and the Faceless men of course. They are always involved ;)

No I don't think Aegon is Rhaegars either, the Blackfyre theory is a good one.

The Baratheon=bastard came from a discussion on Aegon the conqueror having any Valyrians with him on Dragonstone before the invasion, and the fact that Baratheons were connected to them from early on, it was not really serious I think...

I'll call it a day too I think

Good night!

[BrosBeforeSnows]

No one on this thread ever said that the other Targs were sane people, and no one ever said that Aerys crazy ideas came from poisoning.

What we have said is that some one could have wanted him to screw up completely and get himself killed by accelerating his madness, and with the background that he is known as a crazy person it could be done without suspicion.

Not sure if I follow. If Aerys's insane ideas didn't come from poison, then why risk your life to poison him? It's not like slowly poisoning a king isn't a risky endeavor. And, if they were doing it to simply "accelerate" his madness, wouldn't that mean his crazy ideas were coming from the poison? At what point do we separate his natural craziness from the poison? Perhaps he never would've burned Rickard Stark if it wasn't for the poison. There's no way of knowing one way or the other.

All I'm saying is there was definitely a pattern of madness in the Targaryen family long before Aerys ever came to power.

Also, who is really more to blame for Aerys death? Aerys himself, or Rhaegar? I'd contest that Rhaegar was actually more to blame. He had no right to kidnap Lyanna Stark, but it could be argued that Aerys DID have a right to put Brandon Stark to death for threatening the life of the Crown Prince. That's treason, no matter which way you look at it. Brandon, knowing full well what the laws of the land were, shouldn't have acted so belligerently, regardless of whether or not he was in the right. He was dealing with a man who held, by law, the power of life and death over him. Granted, Aerys went a little overboard by putting both Brandon AND Rickard to death, but he wasn't acting completely irrationally, like Rhaegar was.

[1234567]

This is a really interesting topic and the comments about Lysa and Cersei. I wonder if the madness in both these women (who had horrendous marriages) was exacerbated by the use of Moontea. We know what Moontea is used for and Cersei took it frequently enough. People speculate that Pycelle was either going to say the Moontea was for someone else or for some other condition. Lysa may have had a stronger dose of the stuff, or as one crackpot theory suggests, used it to kill off her children with Jon Arryn and that Sweetrobin is actually LFs. Also I don't know if this means anything for Westeros, but the whole Lunar = Lunatic and the mind being affected by Moon made me think there might be a connection.

Crackpot theory: the madness paste could be used on Tommen's kittens. :lol:

[DornishHighlander]

I think Shaggydog Stark deserves Internet Win cookie!

Seriously good find, this is why I love this forum we can discuss things we may not find.

*Presents Cookie*

[Shaggydog Stark]

This is a really interesting topic and the comments about Lysa and Cersei. I wonder if the madness in both these women (who had horrendous marriages) was exacerbated by the use of Moontea. We know what Moontea is used for and Cersei took it frequently enough. People speculate that Pycelle was either going to say the Moontea was for someone else or for some other condition. Lysa may have had a stronger dose of the stuff, or as one crackpot theory suggests, used it to kill off her children with Jon Arryn and that Sweetrobin is actually LFs. Also I don't know if this means anything for Westeros, but the whole Lunar = Lunatic and the mind being affected by Moon made me think there might be a connection.

I really like this theory! Lunar=Lunatic! This is genius. I was wondering if there were other potions/poisons and I guess teas, which might also cause insanity since now we know of one poison that does. Perhaps a side-effect of moon tea would be insanity in highly susceptible and high strung women.This is really good ;)

Crackpot theory: the madness paste could be used on Tommen's kittens.

Well Jaqen used it on Weese's dog so why not the kittens :drunk:

I think Shaggydog Stark deserves Internet Win cookie! Seriously good find, this is why I love this forum we can discuss things we may not find. *Presents Cookie*

Why thank you and now I am blushing. :blushing:

Can I have another cookie? :lol:

[Eyron]

Not sure if I follow. If Aerys's insane ideas didn't come from poison, then why risk your life to poison him? It's not like slowly poisoning a king isn't a risky endeavor. And, if they were doing it to simply "accelerate" his madness, wouldn't that mean his crazy ideas were coming from the poison? At what point do we separate his natural craziness from the poison? Perhaps he never would've burned Rickard Stark if it wasn't for the poison. There's no way of knowing one way or the other.

All I'm saying is there was definitely a pattern of madness in the Targaryen family long before Aerys ever came to power.

Also, who is really more to blame for Aerys death? Aerys himself, or Rhaegar? I'd contest that Rhaegar was actually more to blame. He had no right to kidnap Lyanna Stark, but it could be argued that Aerys DID have a right to put Brandon Stark to death for threatening the life of the Crown Prince. That's treason, no matter which way you look at it. Brandon, knowing full well what the laws of the land were, shouldn't have acted so belligerently, regardless of whether or not he was in the right. He was dealing with a man who held, by law, the power of life and death over him. Granted, Aerys went a little overboard by putting both Brandon AND Rickard to death, but he wasn't acting completely irrationally, like Rhaegar was.

Aerys were probably mad already, but we don't know to what degree. Some of his mad acts could be his own, but some could have come from him been given a drug, it would be easy for the ones closest to him to "make sure" he would flip out in specific events. There is no way of knowing, you are right in this. And I am not saying that poison is the answer, I'm saying there was a good opportunity for someone who we know are skilled in politics, had an agenda to get rid of the king, and had access to poisons, namely Varys.

If you can't see any possibility that it could have been done, fine. We are going to speculate so cover your eyes :)

You were pointing out that there were a known history of madness in the Targaryen family, and neither I or any one on this thread had said anything to contradict this, we all know this very well, it is not a fact that makes it impossible for some one to poison them. It just makes them easier victims for this type of poisoning.

It could very well be that this specific type of poison was not used, but a different one, or non at all. The poisoning would not have to make someone completely irrational, we just don't know enough of how it works, dosages and frequency and effect. So while Aerys made a rational decision to execute Brandon and Rickard, the horrible execution style could be a work of madness, natural or drug induced. For someone who wanted Aerys to be hated and rebelled against, I say it was a good chance to make sure it happen.

In the end it drove Jaime to kill the man, and Tywin to kill all the Targs he could get hold of. I'd say that Rhaegar started the war, but Aerys got himself killed for his madness, he wanted to blow up Kings Landing and every one in it and Jaime could not let him do it.

This is a really interesting topic and the comments about Lysa and Cersei. I wonder if the madness in both these women (who had horrendous marriages) was exacerbated by the use of Moontea. We know what Moontea is used for and Cersei took it frequently enough. People speculate that Pycelle was either going to say the Moontea was for someone else or for some other condition. Lysa may have had a stronger dose of the stuff, or as one crackpot theory suggests, used it to kill off her children with Jon Arryn and that Sweetrobin is actually LFs. Also I don't know if this means anything for Westeros, but the whole Lunar = Lunatic and the mind being affected by Moon made me think there might be a connection.

Crackpot theory: the madness paste could be used on Tommen's kittens. :lol:

Moon tea... We really don't know how it works, and it's side effects. It's probably not as safe as the pills today, and even those have effect on mood and temper. I wonder how much GRRM knows about this stuff :laugh:

Maybe we'll see death by kitten in coming books, that would be a new one! Makes me think of Monty Python and the Killer-Rabbit (and the holy hand grenade of Antioche)

No poor Tommen, he loves those kittens. I hope no one does that.

[Silmarien]

As I was rereading AFFC, I came across the Arya chapter where the waif is teaching her about poisons.

"Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons," the waif told her, as she was grinding some with mortar and pestle. "A few grains will slow a pounding heart and stop a hand from shaking, and make a man feel calm and strong. A pinch will grant a night of deep and dreamless sleep. Three pinches will produce that sleep that does not end. The taste is very sweet, so it is best used in cakes and pies and honeyed wines. Here, you can smell the sweetness." She let her have a whiff, then sent her up the ladders to find a red glass bottle. "This is a crueler poison, but tasteless and odorless, hence easier to hide. The tears of Lys, men call it. Dissolved in wine or water, it eats at a man's bowels and belly, and kills as a sickness of those parts. Smell." Arya sniffed, and smelled nothing. The waif put the tears to one side and opened a fat stone jar. "This paste is spiced with basilisk blood. It will give cooked flesh a savory smell, but if eaten it produces violent madness, in beasts as well as men. A mouse will attack a lion after a taste of basilisk blood."

This information bothered me. The two poisons that were mentioned prior to the basilisk paste have both been used in Westeros. For example, sweetsleep is being used on little Robert Arryn and the tears of Lys has been used on Jon Arryn. So we are familiar with both those poisons. Therefore, it is possible that the third poison or a variation of it has also been used that causes insanity, except we, the readers, are unaware of it.

Does anyone else suspect that some of the people who seem insane in ASOIAF, might actually have been poisoned into insanity? Perhaps even some of the Targs for all we know? The fact that there are poisons that cause insanity bothers me in a book basically filled with many insane people. Lets not forget that the entire series is about how to play the game of thrones, so I am beginning to get a nagging suspicion that some of these people were not meant to be insane but were poisoned.

What do you guys think?

I thought the one that caused madness was there to explain how Jaqen H'gar was able to make Weese's dog go rabid on him (killing him).

[1234567]

I believe they did have maesters. I really think it would be impossible to get rid of dragons completely without the Targs. Especially since they were always trying to revive dragons. So I thought it would be possible that they were poisoning the Targs, however, it is very far fetched as a crackpot theory because wouldn't they just kill them instead of letting them go insane. But I just had to share the thought ;)

Pycelle was Areys Maester, and although he claims he always worked for House Lannister, it is possible that House Lannister's goals fitted in with the Citadel's. Could Pycelle have been poisoning them?

[Eyron]

The citadel would certainly have been playing the long game, if we are talking about the theory that they had been poisoning the Targs for a long while.

It is possible that they didn't poison any other Targs than Aerys though. Maybe they knew it was time for something to happen, that they had to rid Westeros from the dragons altogether. They study astronomy (the bronze link in their chain) and they could have gotten other signs of some sort. They know of the prophecies better than most and still they wanted the dragons gone. In this case it is likely that they also wanted the Baratheons gone, Pycelle could have helped in destroying both Aerys, Rhaegar and Robert. I am fairly sure Pycelle knew who fathered Cerceis children.

So I'd say in this case the Citadel and the Lannisters shared a common goal.

[Gillio]

Moon tea... We really don't know how it works, and it's side effects. It's probably not as safe as the pills today, and even those have effect on mood and temper. I wonder how much GRRM knows about this stuff :laugh:

from wiki of ice and fire

Moon tea is a type of herbal tea that is used in the Seven Kingdoms as well as beyond the Wall to prevent or abort pregnancies. It is made generally by maesters and wise women out of tansy, mint, wormwood, a spoon of honey, and a drop of pennyroyal.

re wormwood: http://www.genhealth.com/Products/vitaklenz/ingredients/wormwood.htm

re tansy: http://www.thehomeherbalist.com/tansy-a-garden-favourite/

re pennyroyal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennyroyal

all are listed as emmenagogue (menstrual flow stimulant) . how this translates to Westeros is anyone's guess

[Shaggydog Stark]

I thought the one that caused madness was there to explain how Jaqen H'gar was able to make Weese's dog go rabid on him (killing him).

Yeah, that's correct, but we are trying to figure out if this is a clue/hint that the paste may have been used on people as well.

Pycelle was Areys Maester, and although he claims he always worked for House Lannister, it is possible that House Lannister's goals fitted in with the Citadel's. Could Pycelle have been poisoning them?

The three people I suspect of poisoning others in KL are Varys, LF and Pycelle.

There are a lot of things that bug me about the Aerys/Tywin backstory which poisoning might explain.

I suspect Pycelle or Varys of poisoning Aerys, and I think it started after his abduction in Duskendale. He had suffered a traumatic experience and Aerys was known to be somewhat high strung before that, so whoever is responsible would have the perfect cover to poison him.

Nobody would suspect poisoning because it was well known that Targs were prone to insanity. Besides, Aerys had specifically shown some signs. However, curiously, at the time Aerys took the crown people thought his reign would be promising despite his lapses according to Selmy. Therefore, his lapses were not threatening and violent in nature. They were things people could live with.

Here is what bugs me about the Aerys/Tywin backstory:

Tywin was loyal up till Duskendale, he and Selmy literally save Aerys's life. Tywin must have felt he was owed by Aerys and perhaps it was after Duskendale that Tywin proposes the marriage alliance between Rhaegar and Cersei. Here is the curious thing, not only does Aerys refuse the offer, he goes out of his way to insult Tywin. I thought that was very ungrateful and strange. Aerys is paranoid and thinks everyone is conspiring against him, however here is one of the two people he can trust because they have proven themselves but not only does he refuse but he insults Tywin. The other person who has saved him, Selmy is treated quite differently. When Selmy asks Aerys not to kill Ser Dontos, he accepts and spares Ser Dontos. I know that marriage and being merciful are not the same thing but why the insult?

It is possible he was envious of Tywin because he was a better ruler than him, but why would he go out of his way to insult him, cut out the tongue of Illyn Payne and take Jaime into the KG? I don’t understand this, Aerys is King, he doesn’t need to play these games. If Tywin is irritating him he can simply fire him and hire someone else as Hand.

Now let’s look at Jaime. Who convinces him to apply to the KG? It’s Cersei. I remember Cersei telling Tyrion that when she first came to court, she thought her best friend was Varys. I am convinced that it was Varys who plotted to have Jaime brought into the KG and he used Cersei to convince Jaime.

It is only after Jaime takes the white that Tywin resigns. He is brooding and pissed off. Here is my theory. Somebody was trying to make sure that the Targaryens and Lannisters did not get into bed together. I think a Targ/Lannister alliance might have posed a threat to whatever plans were being hatched at the time. According to Selmy, the rot started in the court after Varys joined. According to Jaime, Aerys was suspicious of everyone and when he missed someone, Varys made sure he whispered his name into Aerys’s ear. I think it was Varys and Illyrio.

On the other hand, it could have been Pycelle if the Citadel theory is used. But I lean more towards Varys because later Viserys seems to come to the same horrid end as Aerys. I think the only reason why Dany escaped their attention initially is because she was a girl and not considered important or a threat, and they didn’t really care what happened to her but she proved them wrong.

As for LF, I suspect him of poisoning all the Arryns including Lysa and Robert.

I suspect this because of what is happening to little Robert Arryn. I have already posted this on the first page but you may have missed it. This makes the hair on my neck stand. It’s from AFFC, Alayne chapter:

Robert pushed his spoon across the bowl and back, but never brought it to his lips. "I am not hungry," he decided. "I want to go back to bed. I never slept last night. I heard singing. Maester Coleman gave me dreamwine but I could still hear it."

Alayne put down her spoon. "If there had been singing, I should have heard it too. You had a bad dream, that's all."

"No, it wasn't a dream." Tears filled his eyes. "Marillion was singing again. Your father says he's dead, but he isn't."

"He is." It frightened her to hear him talk like this. Bad enough that he is small and sickly, what if he is mad as well? "Sweetrobin, he is,. Marillion loved your lady mother too much and could not live with what he'd done to her, so he walked into the sky." Alayne had not seen the body, no more than Robert had, but she did not doubt the fact of the singer's death. "He's gone truly."

"But I hear him every night. Even when I close the shutters and put a pillow on my head. Your father should have cut his tongue out. I told him to, but he wouldn't."

Somebody is trying to drive Robert over the edge. I don’t think he is imagining this. Unfortunately, because he is a high strung child Sansa is beginning to think he is mad.

Is it time to duck? Will I get pelted for this? :lol: