Are Reek & Ramsay really cut?

[Lord Barristan]

A couple things to take into account:

1. "Reek" doesn't do a whole lot in ACoK, or much to really make an actor want to play him. Once we get into ADwD though, he's one of the series' vilest villains, a role the producers will want to relish and get a wonderful actor for the audience to love to hate, in lieu of the deceased Joffrey. So saving him could be tied into wanting to wait on one of the biggest future aces, up there with the Red Wedding.

2. One of the biggest differences between show and book is that the books can have a character disappear, like Jaime in S2, while the show can't just get rid of one of its lead actors for a season or two. And of course, Theon's basically absent for S3 so they're going to want something to give to Alfie Allen, who I'm sure will be getting much juicy material in S2.

The reason I'm saying this is because I think S3/4, for Theon, could be a "bridge" between his ACoK material and his ADwD material, introducing him to Ramsay, torture stuff, etc.

That is what I think will happen, although I can see the burning Winterfell done in the S2 but with its leader's face obscured.

Reek/Ramsay does quite a bit in Clash. He doesn't do as much as in Dance, but he divises the plan to kill the miller's boys, he acts as a sort of servant to theon, and he burns winterfell. Not to mention all the off screen stuff he does...

I'm just personally annoyed because we're going to have bigger storylines for Daenerys in Qarth, which just won't be exiting. I agree the show Dany is good, but I just can't get excited about this "prince of qarth" and this other nonsense.

Robb's enhanced storyline will be interesting, but he's going to die no matter what. Theon and Ramsay we know will be around to season 6 (if it gets that far) no matter what. Theon is a POV character, Robb isn't, because Robb was marked for death from day one, as we know GRRM planned the red wedding from the beginning (Ned was marked for death too, but he had important info to give us).... Theon's story arc is just so damn good, i'd rather see more interaction with theon and reek than robb winning a few inconsequential battles in the west.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Reek/Ramsay does quite a bit in Clash. He doesn't do as much as in Dance, but he divises the plan to kill the miller's boys, he acts as a sort of servant to theon, and he burns winterfell. Not to mention all the off screen stuff he does...

But none of those are really anything special in terms of the acting needed for ADwD Ramsay, so the producers are left with only a few choices: hire a no-name for Reek then recast, hire a great actor for only a couple of scenes and hope they can get him down the line, or just wait until S3/4 to hire their primary antagonist in S5.

Theon and Ramsay we know will be around to season 6 (if it gets that far) no matter what. Theon is a POV character, Robb isn't, because Robb was marked for death from day one, as we know GRRM planned the red wedding from the beginning (Ned was marked for death too, but he had important info to give us).... Theon's story arc is just so damn good, i'd rather see more interaction with theon and reek than robb winning a few inconsequential battles in the west.

Again, think about it this way. Theon's story arc IS damn good, in both ACoK and ADwD, some of the best material in the series, but the book inbetween them (not counting AFfC) is almost entirely Theon absent, which a TV series won't do for the same reason Qarth is getting expanded, because Dany is a huge character who only gets 5 POV chapters in ACoK. Hence my theory that this is part of building a "bridge" of Theon material for the ASoS adaptation to link the gap in the source material.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Reek/Ramsay does quite a bit in Clash. He doesn't do as much as in Dance, but he divises the plan to kill the miller's boys, he acts as a sort of servant to theon, and he burns winterfell. Not to mention all the off screen stuff he does...

I'm just personally annoyed because we're going to have bigger storylines for Daenerys in Qarth, which just won't be exiting. I agree the show Dany is good, but I just can't get excited about this "prince of qarth" and this other nonsense.

Robb's enhanced storyline will be interesting, but he's going to die no matter what. Theon and Ramsay we know will be around to season 6 (if it gets that far) no matter what. Theon is a POV character, Robb isn't, because Robb was marked for death from day one, as we know GRRM planned the red wedding from the beginning (Ned was marked for death too, but he had important info to give us).... Theon's story arc is just so damn good, i'd rather see more interaction with theon and reek than robb winning a few inconsequential battles in the west.

I agree with all of this, but I think it comes down to just the inherent differences between tv and literature. I'd also love to see Reek adn Ramsay in season 2; I'm also a little concerned about Robb and Dany's expanded storylines cutting into POV character time, like Arya, Bran, and Davos.

With Dany, I liked that her storyline was only five chapters in ACOK and took a backseat to the War of the Five Kings in Westeros. But with the show, Dany is one of the most popular characters and probably the female lead of the show. So for television, it makes sense that they want her to have a sizable role in season 2. I hope she isn't in every episode--I would prefer her to be in only like four--but she's likely going to have more screen time than Arya, who had several more POV chapters in ACOK. So for me it's not preferable, but I understand it. I'll be happy if her scenes are done well and don't cut too much into the other storylines.

Robb was barely in ACOK, so I can see why they're expanding his storyline. As you say, he's going to die, but I can see them building him up a bit more so his death has even more impact. I'd probably prefer only a little bit of expansion, and I don't think (or at least hope) the writers will have Robb in every episode or focus too much on him. Another reason for keeping him around longer is to have the actor around; if they cut him or Jaime for a whole season, the actors might move to another series or a movie and then be unavailable when season 3 rolls along.

I also thought Reek was necessary, but as Nagisa says, casting him for this season presents a lot of logistical type problems. I'm assuming Ramsay and Theon will be mostly absent from season 3--not sure how they'll handle Alfie Allen being gone for a season or if they'll include some story with him. But then, they want to hire a good actor for Reek, who is one of the biggest villains in ADWD and the whole series, and it's not worth it for the few scenes he has in ACOK. The actor likely won't wait one or two seasons to appear again without compromising some other project, so it just makes more sense to hold off on Ramsay. It's pretty similar to Roose Bolton, who is in AGOT but not season one, because he doesn't really do anything in AGOT. I know GRRM in an interview compared what could happen on the show to The Sopranos and the character of Ralphie, who is a major mob figure who first shows up in season 3 but should have been around before that, but everyone just accepts it like it is. Game of Thrones will probably be doing a lot of that as the story continues to expand.

[Carey Snow]

they only have like 10 eps per season so ramsay/reek will probably make his debut in season 3 or later.

This is my guess also. They appear in season 3.

[Jamie Lannister]

This is my guess also. They appear in season 3.

Well, we already know that... <massive show spoilers incoming; ending-related>

the final shot of the second series, as reported on WiC, is Bran/Osha/Rickon/Summer/Shaggydog overlooking the scorched ruins of Winterfell. In other words, it's been destroyed by the end of season two, and thus someone is going to be taking over Ramsay's role there.

I suppose they could expand on Theon's role in book three, instead of keeping him off-screen the entire time. Perhaps introducing Ramsay then, and showing us Theon's ill-fated "escape" from the Dreadfort with Kyra and her keys would be appropriate, though I'm still a little disappointed. Ramsay's gambit and the introduction of a truly sick fuck of a villain (you know, Winterfell briefly swapping hands from one pariah to one far worse in every way) were two of the highlights of ACoK for me.

[TheEvilKing]

We already know that <big show spoilers incoming>

Dude... you totally should have used proper spoiler tags there. I wanted to be surprised when the show aired with what direction they would take it in.

[Jamie Lannister]

Dude... you totally should have used proper spoiler tags there. I wanted to be surprised when the show aired with what direction they would take it in.

Rectified; my bad. >.< Apologies.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

Well, we already know that... <massive show spoilers incoming; ending-related>

the final shot

Well, we already know that... <massive show spoilers incoming; ending-related> ...

That is based on that "Making Game of Thrones" Blog-entry, right? Where they talk about the wrap up in Northern Ireland. I've seen that post and I simply don't come to that conclusion.

The wording is not really clear, they only speak of a "scene with Bran, Rickon, Hodor and Osha". In the book of course, that reminds me of that scene of the burning Winterfell, but maybe they are just going into hiding in the crypts? Of course that has the problem of Catelyns motivations down south, but that's another thing. Also the picture on the blog is not showing anything clear, right? And additionaly, the text speaks of a scene on a hill with rain, not inside Winterfell.

If you could point out to me in spoilers where this was confirmed, I'd be grateful ;)

[Padraig]

And additionaly, the text speaks of a scene on a hill with rain, not inside Winterfell.

I believe you are right that the last scene shot didn't make it explicit that Winterfell was in ruins. Although, at the same time, I think the scene is referring to that part of the novel. Otherwise, its very misleading since we are all aware of what the last scene in aCoK is. Also, it makes sense to shoot such a scene on a hill with Osha, Hodor and the Starks having left Winterfell and looking back at the ruins. It will work better visually.

I'm also certain that Bran and Rickon will have supposedly died by episode 8, at the latest. It has too big an impact on the story to delay it. Given that, the only time Osha and company are out in the fresh air again is when they leave Winterfell. Thus...

The only hope for people that want the Bran story delayed is that they are shooting very out of order. Maybe the last scene shot was from E8! I'm not sure is that feasible though. Its grasping at straws either way.

I think we all would have loved Ramsay to appear in S2. But given what they have to cover, something was going to get cut and they picked the early Bran story. I'm still very happy that they seem to be covering so much else.

There is this idea also that Roose may replace Ramsay for the Sack of Winterfell. So we'll still have the from bad to worse element.

And I expect Dany to appear in 8 or 9 episodes. There are advantages in seeing new material also. Keep us on our toes. :)

[The Bastard of Bolton]

So is it

confirmed or not that the reported scene of Bran & co is actually the last scene of the season or the last scene filmed this season? Has there been explicit proof of a Winterfell in ruins? Could it not just have been them filming scenes such as the one where they ponder the comet? It does seem clear that Reek/Ramsay have been cut out yet there seems to be a lot of assumption as well.

Having a hybrid Bolton makes for a cheap substitution for 2 distinctly different and interesting characters and really complicates the motivations and impacts in the established story.

[The_Salt_Wife]

The producers think so little of their audience that they've changed Asha's name just because we're apparently incapable of differentiating it from Osha. So of course the concept of three different Reeks will have terrified them.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

The Boltons are too integral to the plot. Who would mislead Theon at Winterfell? Who would burn Winterfell? Who would hold Harrenhal while Arya was there? Who would plan the Red Wedding with Tywin? What would happen to the entire Northern storyline of DwD? If they introduced the Freys, surely they will introduce the Boltons,

[boojam]

The Boltons are too integral to the plot. Who would mislead Theon at Winterfell? Who would burn Winterfell? Who would hold Harrenhal while Arya was there? Who would plan the Red Wedding with Tywin? What would happen to the entire Northern storyline of DwD? If they introduced the Freys, surely they will introduce the Boltons,

Seems several times the producers have said that stuff has been moved from CoK and SoS. I am guessing most of Season 2 will be CoK but with some things from SoS. On the other hand apparently some of CoK will be moved to Season 3.

I know it's a big production, and expensive, but ROME was able to fit 12 episodes into a production schedule, now that season did have more money.

If things go as well as I expect will 10 episodes be the norm?

Maybe that's the future of big production series on HBO?

[Lord Barristan]

You can't push the Reek/Ramsay storyline to season 3 because it needs to be Ramsay who plots to kill the two Miller's Boys and pretend they'd be bran and rickon... Ramsay has the motivation to do it... Even Roose Bolton says later on, the Starks were doomed when Theon took Winterfell, Black Larren would have no motivation to fake their deaths... Ramsay must also sack Winterfell. That climax was just as important in the book as the Battle of the Blackwater. I thought the Northmen were there to get Theon out, but they slaughtered everyone.

I think it would really be weak if they changed either of these things. If they could cast Walder Frey for one episode in Season 1, why not cast Ramsay in season 2 when he would appear in quite a few episodes... being brought in as a prisoner, pledging loyalty to theon, the miller plot, meeting with asha/asking leave to go to the dreadfort, returning killing roderick, cerwyn, and the rest and sacking winterfell... thats a solid 4 or 5 episodes right there.

Plus pretty much all Bran does in the book is meet with Manderly (not cast), the Umber bros (not cast), the Reeds (not cast), Lady Hornwood (not cast), fight with the Walders (not cast), and listen to stories about the trouble the Bastard of Bolton (not cast) is up to... So then what is Bran going to do all season? Not to mention, unless I'm mistaken... isn't Ser Roderick still in the south with Cat (since Roderick is filling the Blackfish's role in the series)?

[the Houndini]

I dont know how they would have Roose be in two places at once. WHERES VARGO HOAT!!!

[SerBarristan]

Consider for a moment that we know:

Episode 4 is Theon-centric. During one of the first 3 episodes, he leaves for Pyke to deliver Rob's offer. Episode 4 rolls around and he lands on Pyke, we meet Yara, Balon and co.

Think it's reasonable that in epi 4, Balon and Theon have their talk, in which Balon rejects Robb's offer and we're left with the episode cliffhanger of wondering where will the Greyjoys strike? If you budget 2 episodes of exposition on Pyke, that means by episode 6 or 7, Theon could be capturing Winterfell.

If THAT's the case, then I think a hidden Reek/Ramsay is very plausible because the timing allows for it. Consider also that we know the season will end with a bang...Battle of Blackwater isn't it because that's epi 9. So in the finale, I think we might get some resolution at KL, something cool in Essos (the house of undying probly), something cool north of the wall (ahooooooooooooOOooo) and something cool at Winterfell.<br><br>What's the big payoff at the end of COK? Bran and Rickon are alive.. We don't get that payoff unless we think they're dead, so the miller's sons piece pretty indispensable.

IMO, the only sound way to avoid Reek/Ramsay is to have the following sequence of events: 1) Asha sneaks off with the boys.2) THeon flips his shit. Goes looking for them. 3) He comes back with 2 boys' bodies vaguely resembling Bran and Rickon and the viewer is left to conclude they're dead... 4) Episode 10 we see Asha et al tromping through the forest headed to the wall..

This version has several downsides beyond the absence of R/R, including no cool reveal from inside the crypts ("Hey! They're alive! And were there all along!", no burned out remains of post-sack Winterfell, no touching scene w/ poor dying Maester Luwin)... Unless of course they contrived to have these guys go back to Winterfell without knowing what happened there, which makes zero sense to me. BUT it is doable I guess.

Alternatively, they could do all of this but have the last piece of the story be the crypts reveal and them emerging out into deserted, burned out Winterfell. But no explanation of what happened is given. Where's Theon? What happened to all the ironmen? Why is WFell on fire? Etc. All that storyline and Reek/Ramsay can then be held until season 3 and told as sort of a "flashback" or "meanwhile in Theon's world" something like that.

[The Bastard of Bolton]

If you pay close attention to the Greyjoy Pledge your Alliance video you will notice

two little charred bodies hanging on either side of the entrance of Winterfell, these are for sure the millers boys... Seems like they've gone ahead and really fucked up the story and the characterizations. I heard the Dagmer NoCleftjaw will most likely be the one to whisper in Theon's ear and influence him in his decision to slay the millers. We have also heard rumour that the last scene is of Osha, Bran, Rickon and Hodor departing Winterfell, so this leads me to believe it will be sacked but most likely by some treachery caused by Roose

I am sure this season will still be excellent but I truly believe that each season the material will stray further and further away from the source. Beniof and Weiss might talk a big game about respecting the source but words are wind.

[As high as honor]

I think we were really lucky to have D&D capture book one in one season. That being said, each book seems to grow in length which makes it more difficult for them to keep it book 2 = season 2 and book 3 = season 3. I think that going forward, its going to get tricky and the books might end up being covered in two separate seasons or events & plot lines will be combined into the same season. I'm not sure if season 2 will be that way but D&D and the writers for the show have done an amazing job. Maybe they are keeping Reek a secret for the end of season 2. But I doubt they would take him out of the story. He is a crucial character.

If the show continues (which I think it will) I'm really curious to see if they will combine AFFC & ADWD into one season considering the events coexist w/ each other. B/c lets face it a whole season w/out Tyrion and Dany and Jon???.....I doubt that will happen.

[The Bastard of Bolton]

They've said they are treating the series as whole and not concerning themselves with fitting a book per season, shuffling material around as it suits them but that still doesn't account for making big changes like writing out Ramsay and the Reeds. At this point it seems pretty clear that the miller boy thing and the sacking of Winterfell are definitely taking place, without Ramsay.

[spork]

I'm pretty sure they're going to show the sack this season. See my post in a different thread for support to that theory.

I think they can give a lot of Reek's role to other folks (like Dagmer NoCleftjaw, as previously suggested). The only important part that Reek/Ramsay would specifically NEED to fulfill in ACOK is the sack. I think they will have a no-name extra in full armor destroy WF, and then in S3 reveal that person as Reek, once he is cast (like they did with Jaqen in E10).

The main hole in this theory comes from viewing this from a new viewer's perspective. If Ramsay doesn't have a role until the sack, people are going to say "WTF?" when WF is sacked. There will be no betrayal of Rodrik's forces either.

I'd love to hear some theories on how to have Reek/Ramsay be a no-name extra yet have the sack make sense to new viewers.