Descriptions of Male vs. Female Characters: Another Sexism Thread

[Evamitchelle]

I disagree with this. Yes, there are times when his rudeness gets him into trouble, but overall he takes advantage of his lannister birth to say things that would otherwise get him killed. If he wasn't the Queen's brother, the hound would've cracked his skull for tyrion's constant belittling remarks. And Tyrion knows this, he puts the hound in a bad mood by deliberately insulting him, and then "pities the next knight to come across him".

When Jorah captures him, and mouths off to Jorah, Jorah hits him upside the head, and not coincidentally he swallows his next retort. Yes, there are times when Tyrion can't control his rudeness, but overall, he is deliberately impolite because he knows that as a lannister no one will respond to it. When he realizes there will be consequences for being insulting and unpleasant to people he makes an effort to contain himself.

I wasn't saying that Tyrion doesn't mock people of inferior social status because he can get away with it, just that he also mocks people when he can't get away with it, like with his father or his sister or Joffrey, who definitely have an advantage over him in social status/power. He's an ass to everyone, while Selyse is mean to only those who can't do anything against her.

[Aengus Millen]

I think if anything George is kinder to women then the times would have been especially with Brienne who is allowed to act like a knight or at least a warrior. Also I think the Selyse and Shereen thing is just to prove that everything Stannis has sucks like his wife who is bitchy his daughter who is or was (depending who you believe) deathly ill. Melisandre who always misreads the fires. The queens men who are all crazy zealots. The only good thing he has is Davos and I keep thinking Davos should not follow such a self righteous hypocritical ass.

[brashcandy]

GRRM's actual portrayal of women is far from sexist. In fact, I think he's in the process of creating a world where women are given greater opportunities to design their own futures than ever before. He's used a full range of characteristics to describe these women, and I can't think of one woman that he hasn't given some redeeming aspects to. Whether we as readers take the time to do nuanced analyses is another thing, but the blame shouldn't be directed at GRRM. Further, we have to be mindful of the age GRRM is writing about. Even in modern times, ugly women like Selyse are marginalized and mocked, and I do think that GRRM in this particular case, highlights that it's not merely Selyse's looks that are the problem, but her attitude to others in particular.

In terms of Tyrion, he has to be given complexity as a POV character, but GRRM doesn't shield him from criticism or create him as someone to be wholly pitied and understood. There are lots of things to despise Tyrion for, and I think GRRM has shown that a lot of his narrow escapes and opportunities come from his being a Lannister, and having access to money and power.

Sandor seems like a much better point of comparison, and while Sandor is drawn with more compassion than Selyse I'd also argue that Lysa is his female equivalent in terms of characterization and place in the narrative.

I agree with you here on Sandor and Lysa, but I think that Brienne also offers a useful comparison to him as well, especially post- KL Sandor.

Moving on, I think that Martin tries to imbue all his POV characters - male and female - with complex traits and credible modes of behaviour. In terms of the non-pov characters, and minor ones at that, he's not above slipping in clear plot devices like Ygritte - who's just there IMO for Jon to lose his virginity. But then a similar argument can be made that he's provided her narrative equivalent in a character like Daario.

Interestingly, what do you think about the Cersei Lannister vs. Jaime debate. Is there an argument to be made that Martin slipped into some sexism here, both in his portrayal and punishment of Cersei?

[Tyrionthebest]

What about Tyrion's treatment of Aliser Thorne? Is there that much difference there?

Are you kidding me ? That fucker had it coming the way he was messing with Jon for no reason than being a bastard .

[headtrip_honey]

Are you kidding me ? That fucker had it coming the way he was messing with Jon for no reason than being a bastard .

While I bear no love for Aliser Thorne, I do have to back Alexia up - that "fucker" was bringing proof that wights and Others were moving South. Because of Tyrion's petty hate for him, that evidence was left to rot for days.

[Shaggydog Stark]

While I bear no love for Aliser Thorne, I do have to back Alexia up - that "fucker" was bringing proof that wights and Others were moving South. Because of Tyrion's petty hate for him, that evidence was left to rot for days.

True, but still he reaped what he had sown. Had he not been such a jerk to Tyrion, Tyrion would not have reciprocated. I know, the proof was important, I think it would have been more prudent for Mormont to have sent a better ambassador, one more diplomatic shall we say? I know he sent Thorne to get him away from Jon, but the rotting hand was too important to leave to the likes of Thorne.

I still can't bring myself to fault Tyrion on how he treated Thorne. And I did so enjoy that scene. It was quite hilarious ;)

[brashcandy]

True, but still he reaped what he had sown. Had he not been such a jerk to Tyrion, Tyrion would not have reciprocated. I know, the proof was important, I think it would have been more prudent for Mormont to have sent a better ambassador, one more diplomatic shall we say? I know he sent Thorne to get him away from Jon, but the rotting hand was too important to leave to the likes of Thorne.

I still can't bring myself to fault Tyrion on how he treated Thorne. And I did so enjoy that scene. It was quite hilarious ;)

Unless a wight had personally shown up to choke the living daylights out of Joffrey or Tywin Lannister, there was no way the Lannisters were going to defend the North. So no, I don't think Tyrion's treatment of Thorne did anything more than provide us with a good laugh either :)

[Shaggydog Stark]

Unless a wight had personally shown up to choke the living daylights out of Joffrey or Tywin Lannister, there was no way the Lannisters were going to defend the North. So no, I don't think Tyrion's treatment of Thorne did anything more than provide us with a good laugh either :)

Aha, good point. And it did provide us with this:

"If you bury your dead, they won't come walking," Tyrion told him, and the court laughed openly. "Spades will end your troubles, with some strong backs to wield them. Ser Jacelyn, see that the good brother has his pick of the city dungeons."

:lol:

[Woman of War]

True, but still he reaped what he had sown. Had he not been such a jerk to Tyrion, Tyrion would not have reciprocated. I know, the proof was important, I think it would have been more prudent for Mormont to have sent a better ambassador, one more diplomatic shall we say? I know he sent Thorne to get him away from Jon, but the rotting hand was too important to leave to the likes of Thorne.

I still can't bring myself to fault Tyrion on how he treated Thorne. And I did so enjoy that scene. It was quite hilarious ;)

i agree absolutely although there is a more serious aspect behind it, unfortunately leading away from this very interesting topic: how is the upcoming magic seen by those who are in power and by those who are the intellectual opinion leaders outside the citadel? There is so far a huge gap between reality in the north and its perception in the south. People like Littlefinger and Tyrion, macchiavellian, rationalist statesmen simply don't believe in magic - they have not yet been taught better, this will happen, conflict of ideologies, who will adapt best to the new paradigma? Actually nobody, apart from Stannis, who participates in the game of thrones is the least little bit concerned about magic. Only Varys, the big enigma, has experienced it, to his misfortune, but Tyrion reacts like a modern character would: dismissive - would be worth a separate thread.

Back to topic:

Martin has managed to write some really touching scenes where women are directly concerned:

The first I remember is the morning of Sansas flowering. Her shock and realization what is happening, her fear and helplessness, the frantic attempts to hide the blood, burning the mattress, new blood coming, nothing can staunch it and the shame to be carried away by the servants..........so pathethic, how I pitied the girl!

Next scene I remember: when Cat has heard that Bran and Rickon are dead. Two sons murdered, her daughters captives, her husband dead. She sat there in mute despair, refusing every sign of sympathy form Brienne, seeing her past, her present and future in hopeless silent pain......I was awed by that scene! (btw why all that Cat hate?)

And the best, or worst, that is the most gripping, for me: Cersei's walk of shame: I walked every step with her, so upright and confindent at the beginning, every step one step closer to her son away from emprisonment. Before she had proudly given her hair away, kept her dignity, brave but not putting up a fight. And then - every step a little harder, staring eyes piercing deeper, her legs failing, but she kept her pride. She had to realize that she was no longer the idol, the beautiful queen anymore, that visibly to all of Kings Landing she had stretch marks like every mother of three kids, that her breasts were sagging as it happens to women of nearly forty. In short, the only weapon that society willingly grants a woman, beauty, was taken from her. Ironically she was punished for making use of that weapon, for using sexuality to achieve her goals.

Here Martin shows an ability to let female characters come alive that is far, far above every other fantasy literature, I would not call him a paragon of literary feminism, but this is not only not sexist, it is WELL WRITTEN.

[kissdbyfire]

To be completely fair, Tyrion is the same way externally. He's constantly mocking other characters, and is petty and cruel to those who cross him. But he comes off far more sympathetically -- because he's a major character with dozens of chapters devoted to his perspective, whereas Selyse is a minor character who appears here and there for a paragraph in a only a few chapters. I can understand when people say that her side isn't really presented (being stuck in a marriage with a man who is completely disgusted by her) and she is treated as comic relief within the narrative. But I don't think a comparison to Tyrion is apt, at all.

What about Tyrion's treatment of Aliser Thorne? Is there that much difference there?

It's funny how our likes and dislikes for characters can influence the way we examine – and justify – their actions. I don't mean to say you like or dislike anyone, but rather that I love Tyrion and I really dislike Selyse. And yet as you and others have pointed out, Tyrion can be quite cruel with his comments, etc. And, because I like him so much, it’s really easy for me to justify his behaviour: ‘Alliser Thorne had it coming’. ‘Alliser Thorne is a prick, thank God someone finally put him in his place’, and so on and so forth. I think in Tyrion’s case, specifically, it’s even easier for me to justify his behaviour. I see him as someone with many great positive qualities who is, in general, only seen for his physical appearance. His own father won’t really acknowledge him (he’ll never get Casterly Rock etc), and people are suspicious and wary of him for no other reason than him being a dwarf. He uses his wit and his critical way of analysing things as a shield – ‘wear it like armour’.

The opposite is true. I don’t like Selyse, and find it very easy to see her actions as petty, mean and even evil. In part I can’t find it in myself to justify her actions because I don’t like her. To me, it’s very similar to the way it works in real life. I can forgive, justify and explain our loved ones’ actions, and cannot do the same for the people I don’t like.

I don’t agree with Selyse’s unhappy marriage explaining her behaviour. I mean, who in Westeros actually have a happy marriage? I haven’t given this much thought but cannot, off the top of my head, think of anyone who does. I'm going through characters in my head as I write, and the happiest I can come up with is Ned and Catelyn. That is almost pathetic – both coming up with them as ‘happiest couple’ and not being able to think of any other couples. But I suppose they were, in a way, happy. Still, all the secrets etc, not what I’d call happy.

And let’s say, just for argument sake, that Rhaegar and Lyanna were a happy couple. Let’s assume Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar and that they were crazy in love. And that their relationship had everything Stannis and Selyse’s marriage lacks: love, passion, sex, dialogue, respect. Ok, have we all assumed this? Now think about what happened to them.

:ack:

[Shaggydog Stark]

i agree absolutely although there is a more serious aspect behind it, unfortunately leading away from this very interesting topic: how is the upcoming magic seen by those who are in power and by those who are the intellectual opinion leaders outside the citadel? There is so far a huge gap between reality in the north and its perception in the south. People like Littlefinger and Tyrion, macchiavellian, rationalist statesmen simply don't believe in magic - they have not yet been taught better, this will happen, conflict of ideologies, who will adapt best to the new paradigma? Actually nobody, apart from Stannis, who participates in the game of thrones is the least little bit concerned about magic. Only Varys, the big enigma, has experienced it, to his misfortune, but Tyrion reacts like a modern character would: dismissive - would be worth a separate thread.

I loved your entire post! This is a very astute observation. I wonder if by the time they take the threat seriously it will be too late. It is something to ponder.

Back to topic:

Martin has managed to write some really touching scenes where women are directly concerned:

The first I remember is the morning of Sansas flowering. Her shock and realization what is happening, her fear and helplessness, the frantic attempts to hide the blood, burning the mattress, new blood coming, nothing can staunch it and the shame to be carried away by the servants..........so pathethic, how I pitied the girl!

Next scene I remember: when Cat has heard that Bran and Rickon are dead. Two sons murdered, her daughters captives, her husband dead. She sat there in mute despair, refusing every sign of sympathy form Brienne, seeing her past, her present and future in hopeless silent pain......I was awed by that scene! (btw why all that Cat hate?)

I agree with all of this and the Cat chapter had me all teary eyed. The way GRRM wrote it and the way she was unable to focus on any one topic. It felt very real to me and Cat broke my heart here.

And the best, or worst, that is the most gripping, for me: Cersei's walk of shame: I walked every step with her, so upright and confindent at the beginning, every step one step closer to her son away from emprisonment. Before she had proudly given her hair away, kept her dignity, brave but not putting up a fight. And then - every step a little harder, staring eyes piercing deeper, her legs failing, but she kept her pride. She had to realize that she was no longer the idol, the beautiful queen anymore, that visibly to all of Kings Landing she had stretch marks like every mother of three kids, that her breasts were sagging as it happens to women of nearly forty. In short, the only weapon that society willingly grants a woman, beauty, was taken from her. Ironically she was punished for making use of that weapon, for using sexuality to achieve her goals.

Here we disagree. I hate this character so much and with such vehemence that I celebrated her walk and enjoyed every single moment of it. The more she was shamed the more I rejoiced. When it ended I felt that it had not been half as long as it should have been. She got off too easy imho. I am not usually a vindictive person but this character has a lot to answer for and the walk does not begin to scratch the surface. Last night I read her chapter in AFFC where she and Qyburn tortured the Blue Bard. One walk was not gratifying, if anything it left me wanting more. We shall see if the walk had any salutary effects. One can but hope. But it did feel real and it was very well written.

Here Martin shows an ability to let female characters come alive that is far, far above every other fantasy literature, I would not call him a paragon of literary feminism, but this is not only not sexist, it is WELL WRITTEN.

Indeed! Very well said.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I don’t agree with Selyse’s unhappy marriage explaining her behaviour. I mean, who in Westeros actually have a happy marriage? I haven’t given this much thought but cannot, off the top of my head, think of anyone who does. I'm going through characters in my head as I write, and the happiest I can come up with is Ned and Catelyn. That is almost pathetic – both coming up with them as ‘happiest couple’ and not being able to think of any other couples. But I suppose they were, in a way, happy. Still, all the secrets etc, not what I’d call happy.

And let’s say, just for argument sake, that Rhaegar and Lyanna were a happy couple. Let’s assume Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar and that they were crazy in love. And that their relationship had everything Stannis and Selyse’s marriage lacks: love, passion, sex, dialogue, respect. Ok, have we all assumed this? Now think about what happened to them.

Isn't it interesting that every disaster in these novels arises out of an unhappy or inprovidently arranged marriage? Just saying.

[Texty]

Tyrion, like every "hero" character, is fallible. One of his fatal flaws is that he considers stories of fantastical beings poppycock. Also, he's so very concerned with the politics of what's happening with the throne that what's happening at the Wall is really just not on his radar.

IMHO, this whole ongoing story is a giant, Shakespearean tragedy. Everyone ends up making some colossal mistake that makes everything worse. Tyrion is no exception.

As for the sexism, I'd say that GRRM may at times be rather more salacious and crude in his descriptions of women than that of men, but I think that's more or less in keeping with the tone of the story. Also bear in mind that for each POV, he's getting into that character's head; some of the characters are horribly sexist, and thus their mental monologues about women are going to be so. See: Victarion. But generally speaking, he's fairly equal opportunity in terms of sexuality, exploitation and brutality. The world he's created is inherently sexist and thus most of the women are going to be screwed over somewhat more, and in more brutal ways, than the men. But he doesn't write that stuff purely for the titillation value, the way many other fantasy-world creators might. His women may be brutalized, but they're also fully drawn characters. Only a rare few seem to exist solely for decorative purposes, or to further the plot arc for a male character (see: Shae, Jeyne Westerling.) And he certainly has quite a few male characters who fit that decorative-plot-fodder description as well. Daario, for instance. Or Arys Oakheart.

More than anything else, though, I am utterly delighted that he hasn't gone the route of so, so many male genre creators, and done the badass babe thing. He has a few who might fit that description (the Sand Snakes, maybe. Or Ygritte.) but he also has quite a few badass women who are NOT there to be bikini models with weapons. He's miles ahead of even Joss Whedon (who seems to think older and nonconventionally attractive women don't even exist) on this count. Hell, the arguably most badass character he's written to date hasn't even hit adolescence, yet, and for all the hell he's put her through, he's not exploited her.

As for the truly happy couple thing, the only one I can think of is Renly and Loras. Well, before Melisandre. :(

[Ser Elfor the Landstander]

Wow, I had no idea so many people dislike Tyrion...

I thought the Thorne situation was handled very well in ACOK, even Varys complimented Tyrion for his cunning (I know it doesn't help much, but there you go).

Sure Tyrion was a douche to Thorne, but he had to do that to maintain appearances - the Throne Room was crowded with people who would never believe in the existence of the Others, or who regard the Night's Watch as little more than a penal colony. And Tyrion did manage to send more men to take the black, even if he did it covertly.

Back to the OP, I have noticed some sexism in the descriptions of several characters. Men are described as strong or weak, and women as beautiful or ugly, so one could argue that men don't receive the same "attractiveness measurement" that most women do. But it could be a reflection of the current POV character. The only POV that I can remember to spend more time reflecting about a man's appearance is Sansa. Oh, Dany too.

[headtrip_honey]

Wow, I had no idea so many people dislike Tyrion...

Many of us are disgusted with him after ADwD. If he has a fabulous turnaround, great. But his actions/attitude in that book were just a turnoff for me personally.

And re: Thorne, I'm fine with Tyrion being douchey to him in the Throne room...it's that he made him wait for days that I don't get. Thorne was Mormont's emissary. And though Tyrion did not respect Thorne, he did respect Mormont, and should have respected that Mormont thought the matter was urgent.

See him at once, then be douchey to him when you see him. That's fine.

[kissdbyfire]

Also, he's so very concerned with the politics of what's happening with the throne that what's happening at the Wall is really just not on his radar.

Just so. As are so many readers.

[Alexia]

I mean, who in Westeros actually have a happy marriage? I haven’t given this much thought but cannot, off the top of my head, think of anyone who does. I'm going through characters in my head as I write, and the happiest I can come up with is Ned and Catelyn.

Garlan Tyrell and his wife seem even happier. Tywin and Joanna, by all accounts, had a very happy and loving marriage. There are others. Great post overall, btw.

A lot of interesting thoughts that I'll respond to later this evening when I have time to compose the epistle my fingers are twitching to write.

[holding]

While GRRM's portrayal of women is far from perfect, I actually think he is doing a fairly decent job. More than anything I am impressed by the sheer number of women and the fact that they are all so different from each other, which sounds basic but it's amazing how rare that is. There is no single idea of what it is to be a girl or woman - each character has their own personality, traits, feelings and ambitions that are unrelated to their gender, while at the same time they each have their own way of navigating the sexism of their world, whether it is to play within the rules like Catelyn and Sansa, or make their own like Brienne and Arya. As some people have mentioned, I don't think comparing Selyse with Tyrion is particularly helpful - comparing him to Brienne is more apt, and I think GRRM portrays Brienne very positively. As somebody said, it is really refreshing to see a female character who can realistically hold her own against men and what that actually costs her, as opposed to characters who are at once impossibly beautiful and physically unbeatable. Which is why I just don't really enjoy Asha Greyjoy or the Sand Snakes - in a world where Brienne is considered a freak, how could women like that exist?

I think that there are a few issues in his representation of women, particularly women who don't take on masculine traits but instead navigate the world using their femininity, i.e. Cat, Sansa, Cersei. However, I think that for whatever reason, these books have a fandom that takes that sexism to a whole new level. I don't know if it is the fantasy genre or this particular audience, but I have been more disturbed by some of the views of readers than by anything GRRM has actually written.

Interestingly, what do you think about the Cersei Lannister vs. Jaime debate. Is there an argument to be made that Martin slipped into some sexism here, both in his portrayal and punishment of Cersei?

I've written about this a lot lately, so in short - yes. There's an argument to be made that the sexism comes from GRRM. However, I personally think that a lot of it is from the fandom rather than the actual text. In the text itself, Jaime and Cersei (and Tyrion) all do terrible things for questionable reasons, don't feel bad about them and end up turning on each other, losing everything and pretty much self-destructing. And yet Tyrion and Jaime are consistently two of the most popular characters in the entire series, and Cersei is almost universally loathed. I see so much about Jaime's redemption arc that just ignores all textual evidence, just as I see loads about Tyrion that makes excuses for all the terrible things he has done. And just to be clear, there's nothing wrong with liking Tyrion or justifying his behaviour - but I do think it's sexist to come up with excuses for him while at the same time condemning Cersei.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Garlan Tyrell and his wife seem even happier. Tywin and Joanna, by all accounts, had a very happy and loving marriage. There are others. Great post overall, btw.

Asha and Erik Ironmaker? I mean, there is no proof that they're not :lol:

Oh, by the way, if everyone wants to participate in any games, we are having some really cool games in the Forum Games subforum. Check it out :)

[Sevumar]

A couple of posters have mentioned that the PoV system Martin uses plays a big role in the way women are described. As a woman, I don't find any evidence of systematic sexism on Martin's part in ASOIAF. He has a wide variety of female characters with different temperments, traits, and ways of looking at the world.

I think it's easy to forget that one of the least savory things about Westeros is that women are still basically chattel. The main things they're judged on, beauty and birth, are beyond their own control. The roles that society prescribes for them don't offer much in the way of freedom or autonomy. Most Westerosi men don't stop to consider that they might be intelligent beings with their own desires and interests.

I'm actually very glad that we see women of many different kinds of appearances in Martin's book. It's still pretty common in fantasy literature for women to belong to several stereotypes. It's amazing how many stunningly gorgeous (by our current social standards, no less) female characters populate some of these worlds.