Descriptions of Male vs. Female Characters: Another Sexism Thread

[Orlov]

Many of us are disgusted with him after ADwD. If he has a fabulous turnaround, great. But his actions/attitude in that book were just a turnoff for me personally.

Wait.

Why is that? I personally loved his chapters in ADwD, and I have not seen anything disgusting. At all.

I just felt really bad when he signed all those papers, promising endless gold to the Second Sons. Goddamn, I hope he doesn't plan to pay all of his debts.

Back to topic, I do believe that some of these sexist descriptions are due to the PoV of the character in question. Of course Davos sees Selyse as a disgusting bitch. Jon has no reason to love her, also.

She's is almost as ugly as Tyrion and doesn't seem to measure her cruel words. But, oh look, all other characters seem to not like Tyrion aswell, with very few exceptions.

[Alexia]

Why is that? I personally loved his chapters in ADwD, and I have not seen anything disgusting. At all.

Ahem. *clears throat*

Illyrio's slave girl. The dead-eyed whore. The fantasy of raping and murdering Cersei. The fantasy of getting Myrcella killed through a war with Tommen over the throne for the purpose of making Cersei cry.

[kissdbyfire]

In the text itself, Jaime and Cersei (and Tyrion) all do terrible things for questionable reasons, don't feel bad about them and end up turning on each other, losing everything and pretty much self-destructing. And yet Tyrion and Jaime are consistently two of the most popular characters in the entire series, and Cersei is almost universally loathed. I see so much about Jaime's redemption arc that just ignores all textual evidence, just as I see loads about Tyrion that makes excuses for all the terrible things he has done. And just to be clear, there's nothing wrong with liking Tyrion or justifying his behaviour - but I do think it's sexist to come up with excuses for him while at the same time condemning Cersei.

I agree. I think all (most) of the characters do condemnable deeds; I think all (most) have or may have redeeming aspects as well. I think the line between morally reproachable and morally acceptable is very thin indeed. And that is one of the many things I love so much in these books. To me, it speaks of GRRM’s ability to create characters that are layered and become so alive on the page that people from all corners of the world are immersed in a fun and insightful debate about the moral attributes of characters from a place far, far away called Westeros.

Each one us will interpret things differently, each one of us will have different opinions. But more importantly than any of that, each one of us will find characters we’ll be able to relate to. For some of us it is easy to walk on some of the characters’ shoes, whereas for others those shoes won’t fit so comfortably. And I think that is a good thing. ‘Variety, the spice of life.’ You have mentioned a very good example, being able to justify Tyrion and Jaime’s behaviour but condemning Cersei. It does seem to happen a lot, I have heard this from many people IRL. And the funny thing is, I have heard this more often from women than men. I actually like Cersei. I think her behaviour is, for the most part, abhorrent; still, I think her character is very interesting.

[Hound's She-wolf]

Ahem. *clears throat*

Illyrio's slave girl. The dead-eyed whore. The fantasy of raping and murdering Cersei. The fantasy of getting Myrcella killed through a war with Tommen over the throne for the purpose of making Cersei cry.

Nice concise summary.

[mediocre cheese]

I wasn't saying that Tyrion doesn't mock people of inferior social status because he can get away with it, just that he also mocks people when he can't get away with it, like with his father or his sister or Joffrey, who definitely have an advantage over him in social status/power. He's an ass to everyone, while Selyse is mean to only those who can't do anything against her.

He does mock his sister a lot, but I think he believes he can away with it. As she says, the queen of the 7 kingdoms is still just a women. Now does he mock tywin ever? I could be wrong but I can't recall him ever responding to Tywin's belittlement with anything more than self-deprecating quips.

["The entire fish market is gone, and both the River Gate and the King’s Gate are splintered from the battering Stannis gave them and should be replaced. I shudder to think of the cost.” If you do shit gold, Father, find a privy and get busy, he wanted to say, but he knew better.]

When dealing with Tywin he deliberately swallows his tongue, unlike when dealing with social inferiors, because he knows Tywin won't stand for it. Look at the above, I'd bet if it was someone beneath him on the social totem poll he would've said the shit gold line.

[Tini]

I would say that Cersei and Tyrion are equals, of sorts, which is why he could mock her. Not because she is a woman.

Tywin was way above both Cersei and Tyrion. Not on the social scale, but as the omnipotent father figure who punished them for transgressions severely since before they learned to crawl. Still, Tyrion may not have mocked his father openly, but he did so privately by bringing Shae to court despite explicit orders. And he certainly retaliated against his father by thwarting his plans, as he did when he demanded trial by battle. He knew that Tywin would lose no matter if Oberyn or Ser Gregor won. His father knew, and doubtless many other observers across Westeros as well - and they would mock Tywin with this knowledge.

[Alexia]

I would say that Cersei and Tyrion are equals, of sorts, which is why he could mock her. Not because she is a woman.

Tyrion had a tendency to mock her in a very gendered, sexualized way. Like when he said that it wasn't just for her to let one brother between her legs and not the other, and then said that he'd prefer a nice whore to her. He certainly didn't perceive her as his equal.

Tyrion never brought Shae to court, either. He brought her to KL but refused to bring her to court.

[Tini]

He brought Shae to King's Landing, and to the royal palace. That is as close to court as someone like Shae can hope to come.

If Tyrion did not perceive her as an equal, neither did Cersei perceive him as an equal. She certainly thought herself better than him. It is only fair if Tyrion reciprocates. They mocked the other with their weaknesses. Cersei's weakness was her sex life.

[mediocre cheese]

I would say that Cersei and Tyrion are equals, of sorts, which is why he could mock her. Not because she is a woman. Tywin was way above both Cersei and Tyrion. Not on the social scale, but as the omnipotent father figure who punished them for transgressions severely since before they learned to crawl. Still, Tyrion may not have mocked his father openly, but he did so privately by bringing Shae to court despite explicit orders. And he certainly retaliated against his father by thwarting his plans, as he did when he demanded trial by battle. He knew that Tywin would lose no matter if Oberyn or Ser Gregor won. His father knew, and doubtless many other observers across Westeros as well - and they would mock Tywin with this knowledge.

As Alexia accurately said, he doesn't see her as an equal. Obviously in some ways Tyrion has social privileges she doesn't have, and in some ways she has privileges he doesn't have.

Regarding Tywin, he certainly doesn't always obey him, although I don't think he thwarted his father when he demanded a trial by battle. But that wasn't what I was saying, I was saying that Tyrion wouldn't mock Tywin, even when Tywin belittles him because Tywin has the ability to make him rue his words. By contrast he's rude to others who can't strike back in the feudal system he can call the hound a "cur" because he knows that while if an ordinary man did that the hound would be physically violent toward said man, the hound is not going to attack tywin's son.

When Tyrion wants to make a sharp remark toward Tywin, he doesn't because Tywin has the ability to retaliate toward him for it. But with those that lack that ability he does make said remarks. I don't see it as any different than selyse

[Sevumar]

Tyrion had a tendency to mock her in a very gendered, sexualized way. Like when he said that it wasn't just for her to let one brother between her legs and not the other, and then said that he'd prefer a nice whore to her. He certainly didn't perceive her as his equal.

I know we've talked about this before in other threads, but the Lannisters as a whole have some serious issues with focusing on sex and sexual humiliation as ways to control/punish people. It's a very disgusting side of everyone in Tywin's line. None of them have any qualms about using women as sex objects to advance their positions, even Cersei. You'd think she might have some reservations about it as a result of her life experience.

I think Tyrion's estimation of whether or not people are equals has more to do with (perceived) intelligence than social rank. He's treated as an outcast by most people he encounters because of his appearance and physical awkwardness. He knows he's never going to be admitted to the social circles of nobles without the power of a patron to back him up (like during his time as Hand). His defense mechanism is to convince himself that he's opted out of their world and created one of his own with a different standard playing to his own strengths, of course. At the same time, Tyrion has enjoyed a lot of the advantages of noble birth while remaining ignorant of that fact for most his life,

[brashcandy]

I know we've talked about this before in other threads, but the Lannisters as a whole have some serious issues with focusing on sex and sexual humiliation as ways to control/punish people. It's a very disgusting side of everyone in Tywin's line. None of them have any qualms about using women as sex objects to advance their positions, even Cersei. You'd think she might have some reservations about it as a result of her life experience.

I remember Holding gave a very good response to this concern on how Cersei treats other women, basically that she doesn't see herself as one of them per se, or her identification lies elsewhere. She aspires to be have access to the power men do, sees women as crippled by an inherent weakness to do with their sexuality, and so she exists in a sort of no man's land where her allegiance is restricted to those directly related to her: Jaime and her children.

I agree with you that the Lannisters all display worrying signs of sexual dysfunction. Tywin and Kevan's favourite mode of punishment is to inflict sexual torture on a woman - both of which Tysha and Cersei personally experienced. Tyrion himself is not above making base comments regarding a woman's body, and treating them as sexual objects, and Jaime's whole betrayal of Cersei centres on her sleeping with other men. This is why Tywin's "lovely" relationship with Johanna sticks out like such a sore thumb. Honestly, in terms of how he treats women, he is comparable to Ramsay Bolton.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Thank you both of you. Finally some objective Lannister criticism that does not absolve Cersei and put her on some bloody pedestal. Yes they are all sick and I have mentioned this as well several times in other threads. All three kids are screwed up and its because of Tywin. All three are messed in a sexual way because of their father. Tywin himself had a really weird attitude towards sex and I do not buy for a minute that he had a loving relationship with his wife. I think we are going to find so many bones in that closet that will turn our hair white.

His relationship with Joanna reminds me of the Tyrells. There is something off. Everything is too flowery and covering something nasty.

[Sevumar]

I remember Holding gave a very good response to this concern on how Cersei treats other women, basically that she doesn't see herself as one of them per se, or her identification lies elsewhere. She aspires to be have access to the power men do, sees women as crippled by an inherent weakness to do with their sexuality, and so she exists in a sort of no man's land where her allegiance is restricted to those directly related to her: Jaime and her children.

This is a good point. Do you think that Cersei's regrets about being a woman are limited to accessing and wielding power in the manner of men, or do you think there's a deeper identity issue? Is she someone we'd think of as transsexual/transgendered in the modern world? My own thoughts are that she stops short of this because she does maintain feminine dress and hairstyles and sees herself functioning as a woman in most of her sexual encounters.

[Shaggydog Stark]

This is a good point. Do you think that Cersei's regrets about being a woman are limited to accessing and wielding power in the manner of men, or do you think there's a deeper identity issue? Is she someone we'd think of as transsexual/transgendered in the modern world? My own thoughts are that she stops short of this because she does maintain feminine dress and hairstyles and sees herself functioning as a woman in most of her sexual encounters.

I think she loathes women in general and thinks of them as inferior. Look at how she refers to women. They are all "whores', "stupid", etc. I don't think its a transsexual thing, I think she is mimicking her father.

[brashcandy]

This is a good point. Do you think that Cersei's regrets about being a woman are limited to accessing and wielding power in the manner of men, or do you think there's a deeper identity issue? Is she someone we'd think of as transsexual/transgendered in the modern world? My own thoughts are that she stops short of this because she does maintain feminine dress and hairstyles and sees herself functioning as a woman in most of her sexual encounters.

It's funny you should mention this because it's something I've been pondering too. In the past I've thought of her as actually showing signs of being asexual, but the more I've considered the role Brienne has in society, neither man nor woman, I think Cersei has taken a kind of transgendered stance in her own life. Whilst Brienne's has been forced upon her, Cersei too fits in nowhere, but this is an exile of her own making. She loathes her feminine status, but at least she can afford to exploit in a way that Brienne cannot. This is why I think people do not tend to feel sympathy for Cersei.

[Woman of War]

Wow, I had no idea so many people dislike Tyrion...

I thought the Thorne situation was handled very well in ACOK, even Varys complimented Tyrion for his cunning (I know it doesn't help much, but there you go).

Sure Tyrion was a douche to Thorne, but he had to do that to maintain appearances - the Throne Room was crowded with people who would never believe in the existence of the Others, or who regard the Night's Watch as little more than a penal colony. And Tyrion did manage to send more men to take the black, even if he did it covertly.

Back to the OP, I have noticed some sexism in the descriptions of several characters. Men are described as strong or weak, and women as beautiful or ugly, so one could argue that men don't receive the same "attractiveness measurement" that most women do. But it could be a reflection of the current POV character. The only POV that I can remember to spend more time reflecting about a man's appearance is Sansa. Oh, Dany too.

Stop, stop, stop......I do not only not hate Tyrion, he is my favorite character!!!

In fact, in my eyes he is the most complex, unique and multilayered character Martin has written.

The disgust for being a dwarf he is confronted with reflects in an exemplary way the superstitions, the twisted model of masculinity as martial prowess and the class structure in westerosi society. Tyrion serves the literary purpose to highlight in a condensed way some of societies' attitudes towards women. He is Martin's literary swiss knife, to be used in the most different settings. Through his POVs Martin gives his own viewpoint to us. Of course he had to choose a character for this task that has a certain insight into how society works, someone who has learning and knowledge. It must be someone who has the means and possibilities to get around, not only travelling places but through different social classes, being humiliated as a slave while coming from the first family of westeros.

His attitude towards sexuality is, well, disturbed, twisted or mildly put pathetic. He never was given the chance to develop a self-confident image of himself, his body and his sexual desire. Someone growing up without mother, mistreated by his sister, hated by his father.....etc, you can bet that he was bullied by other kids as well, learning from early on that only his wits and his name could save him.

If some of you wish to interpret my text as "whitewashing" Tyrion I am sorry, but I would not agree. In fact there has been in these posts a tendency for "blackwashing" the literary character Tyrion, that imo is totally pointless and in its agressivity hard to grasp for me. I am interested in a character assessment that makes sense.

I would think his character invites this amount of disagreement because he is the proverbial "grey" character, exemplifying the different shades wonderfully: he is witty, fun to read, but can be cruelly sarcastic, the more because he is clever enough to find everybody's soft spot - always amusing the reader. Then his wits go astray along with his tongue and he is outright stupid antagonizing the wrong people. The first thing he learns about his social class is that people prefer to mock him in his back, he teaches them not to do it into his face - sometimes the lesson goes wrong and he gets caught in his own trap and pays.

But this social class has saved him many times from heads spikes wall or being fed to the goats. He makes use of it in an arrogant manner, that can actually be quite amusing when he squeezes the right people. We like to read it, not realising the point when he has actually overstepped.

On the other hand he can be compassionate, truly caring for people. Being a Lannister, he might look down at servants and slaves but definitely not more than other nobles AND, important for being Martin's spy in the world of westeros, he is aware of class conflicts, being a cunning politician as well as a perceptive person

Then he shows us how the system of power, of oppression, of archaic mutual hate, revenge and dependence, meaning the political system, works, from his point of view, who, again, has insight, because he had power. What i still miss is more insight from Martin's side into the economical structures of westeros, could be given by Tyrion as well.

His love-life.....some see him as misogynistic murderer and rapist, others as true but failed romantic, the disagreement could not be bigger and no pardon is given in that fight.

Let's start at the beginning:

Tyrion has the worst start possible as love-life: no love but disgust for his body by everyone, even babies can feel that clearly. Shaming his father, ill omen, bad luck, disfigured, a view fed with his wetnurses milk. Already that first woman in his life only touched him because she was paid.

Then Tysha: an experience he no doubt would never have expected, the deeper the fall. For me as for most people it is simply not to grasp how he could have part in raping Tysha, I can neither explain nor excuse it. But the perpetrator was Tywin, he not only abused Tysha in a horrible and cruel manner, but as well Tyrion, even if the latter had his part in the crime. Tyrion was thirteen, a child, after our modern law standards not even legally responsible, at least not in Germany, he would be seen as in need of intense therapy and care. Tywin and the guardsmen were the criminals.

From now on Tyrion is convinced that no woman could ever want to touch him, could never desire him, if she is not paid with lots of Lannister money. But against all odds that pathetic man still hopes to find real love, fooling himself, smart as he is, into all kinds of illusions, at the same time seeing clearly through them, only to believe them the next moment again. He could buy all kinds of kinky sex if he wants, but he will not get the most simlple thing, love, for no money in the world. Yes, and he may hate prostitutes subconsciously, not in his delusional moments but when he is clearsighted. It is a circulus vitiosus: i pay them for not showing their outright disgust and I could be outright disgusting to them because i have to pay them for not despising me openly. There is his error, I believe: prostitutes find all their clients ridiculous and disgusting, otherwise they could not do their job, their job is about fooling all the johns, not only the ugly ones. Although i believe in general he only tried to have a good time with prostitutes and he did not abuse or mistreat them - and he paid his debts, many johns don't.

Tyrion wishes to be fooled, he desperately craves to be fooled - and then he murders Shae for it. The ultimate betrayal at the trial was not the reason, Shae could have got away with it had she not so stupidly used this most private term "giant of Lannister". Against all odds Tyrion had hoped that there might be a little truth in the lie.....Murder, I can explain it, don't want to excuse it and Martin does not either, in fact he does NOT offer us a moral judgement, he is a wise author and leaves that to his readers.

No, I am not shying away from the Sansa marriage because I have been criticized for my opinion. I still believe

that Sansa struck relatively lucky because Tyrion saw her as the kid she was, not straightaway, but in the last moment ( yes, yes he should have cancelled the whole marriage farce, I know), most other westerosi men would simply have "consummated" the marriage, because this is the way it is done, including the humiliating bedding ceremony. Tyrion had the common sense and the compassion to stay away from Sansa. You could say that this should be the obvious reaction, yes, in RL men who rape thirteen year olds are criminals. In westeros the bride was a man's property to be raped at his whims, definitely in her wedding night.

Martin gives us a hugely misogynistic society, social conflicts soon to boil over, heated even more through wars, starving, the coming winter and the danger from the north.

The character Tyrion is the perfect magnifying glass for the world of Ice and fire, for its structures, beliefs, religions and superstitions. Being some kind of agnostic he reflects Martin's view on his own creation. At the moment when magic comes to be clearly perceived by everyone it will be people like Tyrion or Varys, who will explain the inexplicable to us readers. They will give us the outsider perspective and at the same time a relatively modern view on events beyond not only westerosi, but as well our horizon, build a bridge for us over the different times and worlds. This is what "intellectual" outsider characters are good for, hey nerdy girls and guys, you are useful!

Apart from that I think that the character Varys is totally underrated so far, we unfortunately have no POV, although this is most likely meant to protect Varys' secret.

[mediocre cheese]

He's treated as an outcast by most people he encounters because of his appearance and physical awkwardness. He knows he's never going to be admitted to the social circles of nobles without the power of a patron to back him up (like during his time as Hand). His defense mechanism is to convince himself that he's opted out of their world and created one of his own with a different standard playing to his own strengths, of course. At the same time, Tyrion has enjoyed a lot of the advantages of noble birth while remaining ignorant of that fact for most his life,

Nobody gets admitted to anything without the power of a patron to back them up. That's a constant of life. Tywin himself get appointed hand, by his patron, aerys, while Ned get appointed by his patron Robert. Thats the nature of a feudel society (and to some degree a capitalist one as well). Now is Tyrion actually treated as an outcast by most people he encounters because of his apperance? I would say certainly not, Tywin mistreats him as does Cersei and Joffrey (although with the latter two, its a two way street), but I've yet to see any other character do so. Addam marbrand, his uncles, his brother, Tommen and Myrcella, pycelle, baelish, varys, none seem to treat him any differently than they would a taller man. The smallfolk treat him the same way they would treat any other high lord.

Tyrion's problem is that he believes people hate him and shun him for his looks and height, so therefor he might as well "play the monster". So he does play the monster, and then is hated for it, which he blames on his height and looks. One of the most instructive parts of this is when he asks Bywater whether he is unpopular. Bywater says he is, and gives a host of reasons some of which were unfortunate coincidences (him being in KL when times are tough, whereas Joffrey and Cersei were there before this), some of which are the result of genuine decisions he made, that have harmed people (to bring the hill clans to KL), but none which have to do with his looks or height. But Tyrion is greatly angered and says "Yes, and I am a monster besides, hideous and misshapen, never forget that". He can't accept that the reasons people dislike him are due to his own actions, not unfair prejudice.

Now this isn't entirely his fault, his father genuinely abused him as a result of being a dwarf and told him he is worthless because of it. It may be natural for tyrion to believe that everyone else will have the same reaction. But as far as I can see it isn't true, most people who do hate and shun him do so because of his own behavior, which tyrion refuses to accept. He instead insists that all the dislike he gets comes from his looks.

[brashcandy]

sees herself functioning as a woman in most of her sexual encounters.

Sevumar, I just wanted to respond to this bit directly. Does she really function as a woman in most of her sexual encounters? It's interesting to think about actually :)

With Robert she eats his sperm

With Taena she attempts to perform as the male

With Lancel and the Kettleback(s) she is involved in performing a role

Perhaps Jaime is the only one with whom she behaves as a "woman" in the sense of being a genuine partner to him.

[holding]

It's funny you should mention this because it's something I've been pondering too. In the past I've thought of her as actually showing signs of being asexual, but the more I've considered the role Brienne has in society, neither man nor woman, I think Cersei has taken a kind of transgendered stance in her own life.

I think that's very interesting, and definitely fits with the way the text has set them up the inverse relationship between them - Brienne's femininity is internal, while Cersei's is external. I don't necessarily think GRRM intends us to view Cersei as transgendered - it's more that she is a product of a society that deems women as inferior. There are these two discourses going on, where she's at once female and therefore inferior, weak, powerless chattel, and also a Lannister queen and everything that goes along with that. And so I think more than anything there's a real disconnect from her own body (in the same way that Elizabeth I famously said "I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the heart and stomach of a king, and a king of England too"). Which also relates to her sexuality, and inability to actually get any pleasure from sex, and the way she uses her own body like currency. Ironically, you can also relate it to Tyrion's view of himself which is somewhat similar - they both are concurrently incredibly privileged and incredibly disadvantaged.

[1234567]

A Tywin POV would have been interesting just from the perspective of how he views his own children and for a his take on his relationship with his wife.