Do you think Ned loved Jon same as his trueborn children?

[Ice Turtle]

In show it would seem so, in the books I'm not sure.. We hardly see any interaction between the two.

[Slurms McKenzie]

Yeah, course he did. He never liked the cruel way Catelyn treated him and to be fair in the books you don't see a lot of interaction between Ned and Robb either, yet nobody disputes the fact that Ned loved Robb.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I think he did. In fact, if Ned had favorites, they were probably Arya and Jon, since they reminded him of Lyanna... for different reasons of course.

If Jon was really Ned's bastard with Ashara, I think he would have a really hard time not loving him more than his other kids.

[Lord of the Night]

Yeah, course he did. He never liked the cruel way Catelyn treated him and to be fair in the books you don't see a lot of interaction between Ned and Robb either, yet nobody disputes the fact that Ned loved Robb.

No I don't think he did. If he did love Jon that much he would have told Catelyn to be cordial to him at the very least. And he would have asked Robert to have him legitimized as a Stark so that Jon could be one of Robb's bannermen one day. Robert would definitely have done it for Ned.

[Whatever]

I think he did. In fact, if Ned had favorites, they were probably Arya and Jon, since they reminded him of Lyanna... for different reasons of course.

If Jon was really Ned's bastard with Ashara, I think he would have a really hard time not loving him more than his other kids.

this.

No I don't think he did. If he did love Jon that much he would have told Catelyn to be cordial to him at the very least. And he would have asked Robert to have him legitimized as a Stark so that Jon could be one of Robb's bannermen one day. Robert would definitely have done it for Ned.

Ned, especially if R+L, probably felt guilty about having Jon around Cat, but this didn't mean he didn't love him.. he simply loved Cat, too. So, he wasn't going to tell Cat to behave, because he knew how hard it was for him. And about the other thing.. how would Cat have reacted? Having Jon legitimated meant putting him ahead of Bran in the succession. No way Ned would have done this to Catelyn.

[Grey_Wind]

this.

Ned, especially if R+L, probably felt guilty about having Jon around Cat, but this didn't mean he didn't love him.. he simply loved Cat, too. So, he wasn't going to tell Cat to behave, because he knew how hard it was for him. And about the other thing.. how would Cat have reacted? Having Jon legitimated meant putting him ahead of Bran in the succession. No way Ned would have done this to Catelyn.

Exactly, plus Ned was a man of honour, if Jon really is his bastard then there’s no way he would have legitimized him, he done thecrime, so he has to pay the price of fathering a bastard and not just hiding him away as a Stark.

I personally think he did love Jon, possibly more so that his other children, Jon grew up under harsh circumstances and because of that he is growing in to a man that Ned is proud of.

[Lord of the Night]

And about the other thing.. how would Cat have reacted? Having Jon legitimated meant putting him ahead of Bran in the succession. No way Ned would have done this to Catelyn.

No a legitimised bastard comes after all trueborn options. Sansa and Arya would have inherited before Jon would. Legitimizing him would have just shown that Ned really did consider Jon to be a Stark and that he deserved to be a part of teh family.

[James Targaryen]

No a legitimised bastard comes after all trueborn options. Sansa and Arya would have inherited before Jon would. Legitimizing him would have just shown that Ned really did consider Jon to be a Stark and that he deserved to be a part of the family.

Catelyn wouldn't have liked this. She didn't even like how Ned had kept Jon.

[Lord of the Night]

Catelyn wouldn't have liked this. She didn't even like how Ned had kept Jon.

Not saying she wouldn't have. But if Ned truly loved Jon he would have done it anyway and assured Catelyn it was no threat to their own children (R+L=J) and that it was so Jon could have a real future.

[Alexia]

No a legitimised bastard comes after all trueborn options. Sansa and Arya would have inherited before Jon would. Legitimizing him would have just shown that Ned really did consider Jon to be a Stark and that he deserved to be a part of teh family.

That's not true. There are no laws governing the inheritance of bastards. If Jon gets legitimized, it would have been a very stupid political decision, an insult to his wife and to House Tully, and endangered the inheritance rights of his own children -- including the younger boys, let alone the girls. See the Blackfyre rebellions.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

No a legitimised bastard comes after all trueborn options. Sansa and Arya would have inherited before Jon would.

GRRM has stated that at the very least, it's unclear who would have precedence by Westrosi law. the relavent bit

]What about bastards who have been legitimized, do they go in at the end after the trueborn kids, or according to birth order? What about widows? And what about the will of the deceased? Can a lord disinherit one son, and name a younger son as heir? Or even a bastard?

There are no clear cut answers, either in Westeros or in real medieval history. Things were often decided on a case by case basis

So it could be:

Robb->Jon->Bran->Rickon->Sansa->Arya

Robb->Bran->Rickon->Jon->Sansa->Arya

Robb->Bran->Rickon->Sansa->Arya->Jon

...depending on how the law is interpreted.

Regardless a legitimized man who is Ned Stark's trueborn son by declaration will definitely have a better claim where it counts than e.g. Rickon or Sansa - that is, by the likelihood that men will follow him. Legitimizing Jon as a Stark would be a huge blow to Catelyn. Besides Ned's honor won't let him do that if he knows that Jon is Rhaegar's son (it would be "dishonest").

[Nausicaä]

GRRM has stated that at the very least, it's unclear who would have precedence by Westrosi law. the relavent bit

That SSM is really old. I think the books that came after it make it really clear (with the way Robb's will and Stannis' offer are handled in ASOS and ADWD) that legitimizing Jon places him ahead of Sansa and the other kids in the line of succession.

[David Selig]

Letting Jon go to the Wall and thus decide his whole future at 14 when Ned should've known well it's a pretty dismal place, doesn't seem to me like the act of a loving father. That's partly plot necessity, of course, but still...

Ned easily could've arranged a place for Jon as a household knight at one of his bannermen, or something like that instead of letting him go to the Wall so young and without any idea of the real situation there, which BTW he didn't think necessary to inform Jon about.

[Sidonie]

Well, when Ned and Cat were first talking about Ned becoming Hand, Cat insisted Ned take Jon to KL. Ned was really upset about this, and said something like "but you know how [badly] they'd treat him, being a bastard!"

So, I think Ned really did care about Jon and Jon's feelings.I think he loves him like an uncle should, lol.

[Sidonie]

Ned easily could've arranged a place for Jon as a household knight at one of his bannermen, or something like that instead of letting him go to the Wall so young and without any idea of the real situation there, which BTW he didn't think necessary to inform Jon about.

Maybe Ned was concerned that if Jon was out of reach, instead of being safely at Winterfell or the Wall, then maybe the true story of his birth would reach him. He might be afraid of Targ loyalists rallying around Jon, and another huge war. Which side would Ned be on, if that happened?

[ChrisJM89]

Maybe Ned was concerned that if Jon was out of reach, instead of being safely at Winterfell or the Wall, then maybe the true story of his birth would reach him. He might be afraid of Targ loyalists rallying around Jon, and another huge war. Which side would Ned be on, if that happened?

Precisely. The choice is a difficult one.

Either his own blood nephew or his childhood best friend and liege lord.

The talk Aemon and Jon springs to mind with that conflict. 'Love' or 'duty'? Would the love and duty to his friend Robert surpass the love for (potentially) his sisters son.

[Lord of the Night]

Either his own blood nephew or his childhood best friend and liege lord.

The talk Aemon and Jon springs to mind with that conflict. 'Love' or 'duty'? Would the love and duty to his friend Robert surpass the love for (potentially) his sisters son.

I believe that if Robert found out Jon was Rhaegar's son he might try to kill him.

No question where Ned would side then. I don't think he loved Jon as much as he should have but he definitely would have defended his life, even if it meant killing Robert.

[Ser Tomas Yellowsnow]

Letting Jon go to the Wall and thus decide his whole future at 14 when Ned should've known well it's a pretty dismal place, doesn't seem to me like the act of a loving father. That's partly plot necessity, of course, but still...

Ned easily could've arranged a place for Jon as a household knight at one of his bannermen, or something like that instead of letting him go to the Wall so young and without any idea of the real situation there, which BTW he didn't think necessary to inform Jon about.

I'm not so sure about that. Benjen was at the wall, and it is known in the North that taking the Black is a honorable cause. Indeed in the books it is said that many Starks have not only taken the Black, but have become LC's.

I think ,if anything, would have been extremly proud of Jon making that choice. A man's parentage means nothing on the wall, only his actions. Remember "Winter is coming".

PS Plus taking the Black certainly would have made the "bitch"..sorry Cat happy. I wonder if he did it to get away from her, knowing Ned was going south, and his Uncle, if anything, seemed more like a father to him.

[David Selig]

Point is that Ned should've made:

1) explained to Jon that the Night's watch is quite different from the glorious tales about it. If not for the chance meeting with Tyrion, Jon would've been completely unprepared for the reality at the Wall.

2) made Jon wait until he reach his majority (16 years old) before making such a huge decision, or at least ask him to think about it for several more months and not leave right away. Even with Cat's objection to Jon staying at Winterfell, finding him a place to stay at a bannermen or a more minor Northern noble would've been very easy for Ned.

He did none of the above, and didn't seem to care all that much that Jon is giving up the chance to have a family and children and would be living the rest of his life among the criminals of Westeros.

Maybe Ned was concerned that if Jon was out of reach, instead of being safely at Winterfell or the Wall, then maybe the true story of his birth would reach him. He might be afraid of Targ loyalists rallying around Jon, and another huge war. Which side would Ned be on, if that happened?

That seems an awful long shot. How many living persons at the time would know Jon's story if he is a Targ? Two or three at most likely.. And how would Howland Reed or someone else of those few who know it convince anyone it's true? Jon looks nothing like a Targ.

[longlivestark]

If Ned's intention by letting Jon join the NW was to protect him from the various political problems and danger he would face from being Rheagar's son (IF R+L=J is true) it did quite work, not just protecting him from the earlier mentioned danger but also from the danger of merely having Stark blood. None of the Lannister's even think about the Stark bastard on the wall, at least until that bastard is made Lord Commander and Cersei plans to have him killed, but still, he was safer then Arya, Sansa, Robb, Bran, and Rickon.