Do you think Ned loved Jon same as his trueborn children?

[kephv]

I say no. Two things make me see it this way. When he lets Jon go to the Wall. Sure, Jon wanted to but really what other choice did he have, he was trying to get out of way. Ned could have taken him to KL as a Squire or as one of his guards. As we've seen, there are other bastards at court in KL and they aren't shown as been scorned.

First, he specifically mentions he doesn't want to take him to KL. Assuming theorem R+L=J then he's probably more worried about someone getting a good look at him - and seeing some resemblance - rather than him being shunned.

But I'm glad he did or Jon would have died there too.

The biggest point, which also helped me see that Jon wasn't Ned's son was when Ned is in the dungeon and thinking about Robb calling the banners and is marching south. He thinks he's too young and he might die and never get to hold his own son ( something like that). I immediately thought what about Jon you asshole.

That's Catelyn who thinks that.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

That's Catelyn who thinks that.

Yes. The last POV we have of Eddard is his conversation with Varys in the dungeon when he learns Robb is marching south, and that chapter ends with Varys telling Ned that Sansa's life is in his hands.

[Stark@heart]

I know Catelyn wonders if he's ever kissed a girl but I could have sworn Ned thought something like that, maybe not in the dungeon but somewhere. I'm getting ready to do a re-read so if I come across it again I'll try to work it into a post somewhere. If not, well - sorry.

[ARYa_Nym]

I know Catelyn wonders if he's ever kissed a girl but I could have sworn Ned thought something like that, maybe not in the dungeon but somewhere. I'm getting ready to do a re-read so if I come across it again I'll try to work it into a post somewhere. If not, well - sorry.

Is it this one where he makes a distinction b/w his children and Jon?

"If it came to...the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life against the children of her body?"

Also, I must say even if Ned didn't care for Jon he would care about his safety. Jon is all dear sister left in the world. It's like Connington's attitude towards Aegon. I do think Ned loved Jon but I don't believe he was one of his favorites. & I do think he was pro-Baratheon so he wouldn't see a problem with having Rhaegar's heir go to the wall. It really wouldn't keep him safe from Robert if he found out.Jon would be physical evidence of Rhaegar "defiling" Lyanna. Now, Robert would just know exactly where to find him to target him just like Cersei did.

[Dragonfish]

I know Catelyn wonders if he's ever kissed a girl but I could have sworn Ned thought something like that, maybe not in the dungeon but somewhere. I'm getting ready to do a re-read so if I come across it again I'll try to work it into a post somewhere. If not, well - sorry.

Ned does think to himself that Bran will never hold his own son in his arms, I'm pretty sure. But he doesn't think this about Robb, as far as I can recall.

[kg1982]

First, he specifically mentions he doesn't want to take him to KL. Assuming theorem R+L=J then he's probably more worried about someone getting a good look at him - and seeing some resemblance - rather than him being shunned.

Agreed.. The reason why people haven't put two and two together is because nobody thought that Ned Stark would concoct such a lie and the Winterfell is pretty far out in the country. By bringing Jon to King's Landing, Ned would have been taking away the distance. People are bound to gossip and savvier people like Varys and Littlefinger (and probably even Cersei) are bound to think something fishy is going on.

The Wall seems like a perfectly good option for Jon at the time. It keeps him out of the political crosshairs and offers him advancement.

[ARYa_Nym]

Jon has no Targaryen features though. Cersei said that she got a good look at Jon to Ned. We all know that she was obsessed with Rhaegar. Now that we know that Ashara had dark hair that would easily explain it to people in the south. I don't think Jon had to go to the south though.

[kephv]

Jon has no Targaryen features though. Cersei said that she got a good look at Jon to Ned. We all know that she was obsessed with Rhaegar. Now that we know that Ashara had dark hair that would easily explain it to people in the south. I don't think Jon had to go to the south though.

She said she glimpsed him and he looks like his father (ned). She also mentions that they did their best to hide him. Still, who's to say someone down south wouldn't see him and think otherwise?

[Ursa]

One interesting thought this thread has provoked for me is that Ned did not trust Cat. I'm in the R+L = J camp, too, and I've wondered why he didn't confide in his wife. I guess he didn't think she could act spurned convincingly if she knew. I don't think he doesn't trust her confidentiality. I think he needed her show of anger toward Jon, and that is the price he and Jon had to pay to keep the secret: Jon as the object of her hate, and Ned losing his wife's trust and having to watch her neglect him.

I tend to agree on this point, and I think part of the reason why Ned never told Cat has to do with Robert.

Ned loved Robert like a brother, and he allowed and approved of the murder of children. I think this damaged Ned's ability to trust people. After all, at the time of Jon's birth, he didn't really know Cat. And if Robert, who he knew and loved could do something so terrible, why in the seven hells would he trust the life of Lyanna's child to a women he barely knew who had a babe of her own to protect?

I'm guessing by the time Ned realized that yes, he could trust Cat, it was too late. It would be noticed if she suddenly stopped being mean to Jon. Her clear dislike of him was the best protection he had.

More importantly, if anyone had figured it out, they were all dead.

Now, on to the original topic of the post :D .

If we look at this as R+L=J, then sending Jon to the Night's Watch is, at the time, the best thing for him. He's not going to Kings Landing (for safety reasons) and he's not going to be fostered out ( ditto) so what else can he do? Yes, the NW is not what it used to be, but Benjen is there and has gone far - First Ranger. Jon can have a life there that's not too bad - remember this is before anyone knows the wights are coming.

Plus, Ned has to keep Jon safely out of the way. His life (and others) depends on it.

Plus, Ned has no reason to know that things will get flushed so quickly. He likely thinks Robert will live for a good 10-15 more years. He has to make sure Jon is always safe.

Looking at it as N+?=J, I think you can still argue that Ned loved Jon. He kept him at Winterfell and raised him with the legal kids he had with Cat. We know this wasn't the normal thing to do, and it pissed Cat off. Why do that for a kid you don't love as much? Not even Ned Stark has honor that deep. He also didn't foster Jon out, allowing Jon to be raised by him so that he could make sure Jon was given his values and way of thinking.

He didn't take Jon to KL knowing that the court would treat him horribly, which again isn't the actions of an uncaring Father.

As for sending Jon to the NW's, again it's the best thing for him. He can't make a good marriage for his bastard son, not when he has 3 trueborn sons and 2 daughters. The north doesn't do knighthood like the south does. And Cat would go ape-shit if he legitimized Jon and/or gave him a landholding - and Ned has already asked a lot of her to tolerate his bastard son in the same house as her and her children for 14 years.

But in the NW, it won't matter if Jon is a bastard, if he works hard he can rise high. It's not the best life, but there aren't a whole lot of options.

Also, no matter what you believe about Ned and Jon's relationship (father or uncle) there is one important fact that's the same - Ned was caught off guard. He clearly thought he'd have some time to decide Jon's future. But then Robert came, and Bran had his accident and the letter from Lysa complicated matters....and Ned had to choose and choose quickly what to do with Jon.

Sending Jon to the NW as a 14 year old doesn't mean he didn't love Jon as much, but Jon's status (no matter what it is) never gave him a lot of options.

[ARYa_Nym]

She said she glimpsed him and he looks like his father (ned). She also mentions that they did their best to hide him. Still, who's to say someone down south wouldn't see him and think otherwise?

Jon looks like a Stark. I could see it if Jon had purple eyes instead of dark grey. Even there Ned can say that Ashara is his mother. Rhaegar's close friends weren't around. Varys was whispering in Aerys' ear so I assume that Rhaegar never got close to him. Who would put two and two together and why? If they couldn't do it when it was obvious I don't see why they'd be able to now unless someone who did know pushed them into that direction. It's not like Dany's dragons were around to show too much affection for Ned's bastard.

[Dragonfish]

Jon looks like a Stark. I could see it if Jon had purple eyes instead of dark grey. Even there Ned can say that Ashara is his mother. Rhaegar's close friends weren't around. Varys was whispering in Aerys' ear so I assume that Rhaegar never got close to him. Who would put two and two together and why? If they couldn't do it when it was obvious I don't see why they'd be able to now unless someone who did know pushed them into that direction. It's not like Dany's dragons were around to show too much affection for Ned's bastard.

The danger doesn't necessarily lie in someone recognizing Jon as a Targaryen. Jon's presence in King's Landing would have been a constant reminder to everyone at court that Ned had a bastard with mysterious origins. This might have encouraged the nosier types to start snooping around and figure out the answer to this mystery, which we know Ned cannot afford. But with Jon tucked away in the north, hardly anyone would bother to think about him. Out of sight, out of mind.

[ARYa_Nym]

The danger doesn't necessarily lie in someone recognizing Jon as a Targaryen. Jon's presence in King's Landing would have been a constant reminder to everyone at court that Ned had a bastard with mysterious origins. This might have encouraged the nosier types to start snooping around and figure out the answer to this mystery, which we know Ned cannot afford. But with Jon tucked away in the north, hardly anyone would bother to think about him. Out of sight, out of mind.

Coincidentally, it was his presence at the wall that caused the Lannisters, (namely Cersei) to draw their attentions upon him. He was elevated to LC.

If he had some random job that the smallfolk do then I doubt Cersei would have been bothered. I'm sure there were jobs all over Westeros not just in KL.

[Dragonfish]

Coincidentally, it was his presence at the wall that caused the Lannisters, (namely Cersei) to draw their attentions upon him. He was elevated to LC.

I doubt Ned could have foreseen Jon's meteoric rise to the position of Lord Commander. Nor do I think he could have foreseen that Jon would harbor Stannis, which was the real reason Cersei's attention was drawn to him.

[ARYa_Nym]

I doubt Ned could have foreseen Jon's meteoric rise to the position of Lord Commander. Nor do I think he could have foreseen that Jon would harbor Stannis, which was the real reason Cersei's attention was drawn to him.

True, no one could have foreseen that. However, it was never out of the realm of possibility because bastards can advance at the wall.

[kephv]

Varys was whispering in Aerys' ear so I assume that Rhaegar never got close to him.

You think all the time Varys was in KL that he never got a good look at Rhaegar? Doubtful.

Who would put two and two together and why? If they couldn't do it when it was obvious I don't see why they'd be able to now unless someone who did know pushed them into that direction. It's not like Dany's dragons were around to show too much affection for Ned's bastard

Anyone who knew Rhaegar well possibly could have. It's a danger either way (exposing Jon and opening up Ned to questions) that I'm sure he'd just rather not risk by bringing him anywhere near there.

Coincidentally, it was his presence at the wall that caused the Lannisters, (namely Cersei) to draw their attentions upon him. He was elevated to LC.

If he had some random job that the smallfolk do then I doubt Cersei would have been bothered. I'm sure there were jobs all over Westeros not just in KL.

Ned couldn't have figured he'd rise to the top so soon. Anyway, it's clear he didn't want some random smallfolk job. Sending him to the wall was probably the only option that they could both mutually agree on at the time.

[Dragonfish]

True, no one could have foreseen that. However, it was never out of the realm of possibility because bastards can advance at the wall.

Yes, but again, the real reason Cersei's attention was drawn to him was because he was harboring the last threat to her reign, at the tail end of a civil war. Had Jon become Lord Commander during a time of relative peace, I don't think Cersei or anyone else would have cared that much. No one much cares about the Night's Watch in the South.

[Verboten]

If Ned had claimed Jon was Ashara Daynes bastard the Daynes would have almost certainly taken an interest in him. The Daynes who are a part of Dorne. The Daynes who are a part of Dorne which desperately wants to declare war on the Lannisters. If Jon is Rhaegars bastard you can probably see where I'm going with this.

[ARYa_Nym]

Yes, but again, the real reason Cersei's attention was drawn to him was because he was harboring the last threat to her reign, at the tail end of a civil war. Had Jon become Lord Commander during a time of relative peace, I don't think Cersei or anyone else would have cared that much. No one much cares about the Night's Watch in the South.

The Lannisters wouldn't have had a problem if Janos Slynt had been elected instead of Jon because Stannis wouldn't be successful with the NW.

You think all the time Varys was in KL that he never got a good look at Rhaegar? Doubtful.

Anyone who knew Rhaegar well possibly could have. It's a danger either way (exposing Jon and opening up Ned to questions) that I'm sure he'd just rather not risk by bringing him anywhere near there.

Ned couldn't have figured he'd rise to the top so soon. Anyway, it's clear he didn't want some random smallfolk job. Sending him to the wall was probably the only option that they could both mutually agree on at the time.

I'm not talking about looks. Maybe he acts like Rhaegar and the timelines fits. Someone like Connington could possibly pick up on it but it's still doubtful. Varys or anyone else can't go by looks because Jon simply doesn't look like Rhaegar.

I don't remember Ned and Jon discussing other options.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Who would put two and two together and why? If they couldn't do it when it was obvious I don't see why they'd be able to now unless someone who did know pushed them into that direction. It's not like Dany's dragons were around to show too much affection for Ned's bastard.

Two possibilities I can think of are Varys and Littlefinger. They are both horrifically overinformed and good at making just these types of connections. At the moment, I would not be surprised if Varys is entirely aware of who Jon really is, and either it does not suit his purposes to reveal him, or it just hasn't suited them YET. Varys' spy system was already well in place by the time Jon was conceived and born. It is hard for me to imagine that his little birds somehow completely missed the fact that Lyanna was missing just long enough to bear a child, then died exactly at the end of that time period, and that shortly thereafter, her brother turned up with an unexplained infant and no one (not even the little birds) could find any evidence of a mother.

I am not sure what Varys' purpose would be for keeping this secret all these years. Keeping another Targ out of the way (given the unlikelihood of anyone else discovering his parentage, especially after Ned died) seems reasonable. He could also be keeping Jon on ice (as it were) in case things go awry with YG. If YG fails or is killed, here is another Targ of marriageable age who could be presented to Dany for consideration (if they can ever dislodge the Meereen fencepost from her ass).

[Chirios]

If Jon really IS Ned's son then why not do for him what was done for the Karstarks centuries before, give him some land of his own, let him found his own House, and have him and his heirs as a backup in case the mainline goes extinct.

So it would be the Starks, then the Karstarks, then lastly the 'Snowstarks' or something like that.

This. I never got why people said Jon had no other opportunities apart from becoming a member of the NW. This quite easily could've happened, Jon might've not been that good at being a lord but there's no reason why he couldn't have formed his own minor northern house.

RE: R+L=J, figuring it out isn't that difficult.

1) There's no reason for the KG to be guarding Lyanna instead of their prince, unless he had ordered them to do so. Why? Possibly she was pregnant

2) Jon is old enough to be the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar

3) Ned goes to the TOJ, a couple of days later he comes out and just happens to have a newborn baby with him. Coincidence?