Princess of the Night Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 As I said before, Arya "only" became a multiple murderer who gradually started killing without any remorse. Is that supposed to be a positive example?Well, I'm only a half way trough ASoS, so I don't know what will she do in the future. I'm just saying, that she would react differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Barristan BadAss Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Well, in Martin's ASOIF World, it's very dark and grim, it's kill or be killed. Catelyn killed in cold blood too, after seeing her son murdererd, Arya kills too. Killing seems to me to be the main way of surviving in that World, survival not sorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess of the Night Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Well, I would like to thank you for all the spoilers.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I can't blame Cat for freeing Jaime, it was Robb who was an ass not to exchange Jaime for his sisters. Ned and Jon would both do that. I think that one of her biggest mistakes was sending Jon away. Jon never liked Theon and seeing him and Cat agree on something may have convinced Robb not to send Theon to iron islands. And if he stayed at Winterfell, I have the feeling that he would never let the castle be so poorly protected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmflavius Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I can't blame Cat for freeing Jaime, it was Robb who was an ass not to exchange Jaime for his sisters. Ned and Jon would both do that.I think that one of her biggest mistakes was sending Jon away. Jon never liked Theon and seeing him and Cat agree on something may have convinced Robb not to send Theon to iron islands. And if he stayed at Winterfell, I have the feeling that he would never let the castle be so poorly protected.To be honest, I think that if Jon had stayed, he would have gone south with Robb. And in fairness to Robb, militarily, it made no sense to trade Jaime for Arya and Sansa. Whereas Jaime could have a major effect on the war as both a commander and a knight, Arya and Sansa are of minimal value. Also, making such a trade would cause Robb to lose face, since it would be viewed as an unequal trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Salt_Wife Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Talking to these Catelyn lovers is like talking to a brick wall.It's like politics, you can never argue with the other side without getting frustrated, but that's what makes it interesting.I have no hate for the female characters, just Catelyn, I understand all her grief, doesn't mean I can't still hate her. I don't feel any hatred towards Sansa, she is a poor young, dreamer of a girl who is alone and surrounded by enemies who repulse her.Arya for instance is well aware of what's happened to the Starks, she's seen her father get beheaded and all but it makes her stronger, she moves on fast and tries to improve her situation instead of moaping about, causing problems to her own side.But Sansa is actually more responsible for the bad things that have happened to her family than Catelyn. She is the one who betrayed her father to Cersei. Catelyn might have made mistakes, but all of her acts were intended to protect her family. Sansa betrayed the Starks because she wanted to remain at King's Landing... :worried: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Of course, Sansa didn't fully understand what was going on or what the results of what she said would lead to. That was on Ned, more than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I think that one of her biggest mistakes was sending Jon away. Jon never liked Theon and seeing him and Cat agree on something may have convinced Robb not to send Theon to iron islands. And if he stayed at Winterfell, I have the feeling that he would never let the castle be so poorly protected. Jon went to the Wall by his own choice, he had decided it before Cat told Ned Jon couldn't stay at Winterfell.But Sansa is actually more responsible for the bad things that have happened to her family than Catelyn. She is the one who betrayed her father to Cersei. Catelyn might have made mistakes, but all of her acts were intended to protect her family. Sansa betrayed the Starks because she wanted to remain at King's Landing... :worried: I don't think what Sansa did played any significant part in ned and the Starks downfall. Cersei already knew more than enough about ned's intentions even without Sansa - Ned told her most of them himself. And LF had already arranged for the Gold cloaks to betray Ned when Sansa went to Cersei. What Sansa did changed very little, if anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 To be honest, I think that if Jon had stayed, he would have gone south with Robb. And in fairness to Robb, militarily, it made no sense to trade Jaime for Arya and Sansa. Whereas Jaime could have a major effect on the war as both a commander and a knight, Arya and Sansa are of minimal value. Also, making such a trade would cause Robb to lose face, since it would be viewed as an unequal trade.Jaime is a great knight and warrior, he's a good leader able to inspire his men, but before losing his hand, he was average strategist at best. He was way too rash and overconfident. He wouldn't change much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmflavius Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Jaime is a great knight and warrior, he's a good leader able to inspire his men, but before losing his hand, he was average strategist at best. He was way too rash and overconfident. He wouldn't change much.But the inspiring part is still important. If nothing else, it would be a gigantic political victory for the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Well, in Martin's ASOIF World, it's very dark and grim, it's kill or be killed. Catelyn killed in cold blood too, after seeing her son murdererd.Cold blood? What the hell? She starts ripping her own face seconds after. I shudder to think of what she would do if this is cold blood.But the inspiring part is still important. If nothing else, it would be a gigantic political victory for the Lannisters.Not really, since politically, it works both ways. Having Sansa and Arya would be a political victory as well. We know that, since Tywin preferred wedding Sansa to Tyrion than even try to exchange her for Jaime. The inspiring part is very minor: the Lannisters have many good generals who can do that: Daven Lannister, Randyll Tarly, even Gregor mfing Clegane. Inspiration is cheap. Politically, however, the girls have huge value, while Jaime has next to none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Salt_Wife Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Jaime Lannister's style of command is very much like the Greatjon's (all brawn, not enough brains), which is why Catelyn advises against giving the Greatjon the command of the diversionary force that is to march on Tywin's host before the battle of the Whispering Woods. Of course, the man who is chosen for the task turns out to be untrustworthy in another, far more fatal way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrowlane Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I'm only a bit more than halfway through ASOS and maybe I understand Catelyn a bit more, but she is certainly not a favorite character. I am a woman and a mother and would have lost my wits-and probably my son's kingdom!-if I thought my children were all lost to me. I'll give her that much. I cannot, however, stand her treatment of Jon Snow and I adored Robb for sticking it to her on the subject. If she got over Ned's part in the 'adultery' (in the early days of a politically arranged marriage--I'm not sympathetic) then how much easier would it be to accept the innocent child? After fifteen+ years, it shouldn't be a thought. Mistreating a child for all of his life is a far greater crime flaw than an illicit relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 She never did get over Ned's part in it, because he kept forcing it into her face every day of their marriage, and seemed to think that she should just do as he wanted and be a mother to his bastard.She did not, however, mistreat him all of his life. She simply said she wasn't having any of Ned's notion of her being a mother to the boy. She didn't hit him, she didn't verbally abuse him (the one time at Bran's bedside was the only time that ever happened, and she was clearly in a disturbed, black depression -- i.e. she wasn't herself), she didn't do anything more than refuse to have him as part of her life. Which was her right -- Winterfell is a big place, and there's plenty of other women around who can change his nappies or pat him on the head if they'd like. She had no obligation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.T. Lannister Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 You'd be surprised how many people are unsympathetic readers, have an inability or lack of desire to contextualizeA million times, thank you. So many people miss out on character depth, or maybe emotional expression on the authors part, because they're can't help but to dump their own traits on a character and then feel disapointed when they don't fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamDanyArya Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Or heaven forbid, change because people in real life always stay the same no matter what life throws at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.T. Lannister Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Thank you for proving my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyvyathan Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Yes, she has no place complaining about being reminded of her husband's adultery every day. What an insolent bitch. She should be grateful it isn't worse.Mayhaps, but she should be taking the issue up with her HUSBAND not the poor kid. C'mon, since when has taking your marriage frustrations out on children ever been an acceptable form of behavior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 She never took her frustrations out on Jon. She simply chose not interact with him. She had no obligation to him whatsoever -- he's not her son, he's not her servant, he's not her guest -- he's not anything whatsoever to her.Saying she took frustrations out on him implies that she was withholding something that she ought to have given, and that's of course a falsehood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Barristan BadAss Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 She never took her frustrations out on Jon. She simply chose not interact with him. She had no obligation to him whatsoever -- he's not her son, he's not her servant, he's not her guest -- he's not anything whatsoever to her.Saying she took frustrations out on him implies that she was withholding something that she ought to have given, and that's of course a falsehood.He is the brother of her sons and daughters, my cousin has three children and one is not his own yet if he treated him like Catelyn treated Jon he would be a social outcast, and every one would be 'tutting' him. Robb, Bran and Arya especially love Jon, I don't know about Sansa and who knows anything about Rickon. Those three do love him though and it mustn't be nice to see your mother treat your brother in such a COLD way. She has n obligation to love him but there is no denying how cold she is towards him which is not acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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