Catelyn is an idiot

[lyvyathan]

She did get over it. She got over it by deciding that if Ned was going to refuse to talk with her and was going to try and force her to just give in, that she wasn't going to give in. Jon was an unwelcome guest in her home, a guest that Ned invited in without consulting her, without even being willing to explain himself and why he was putting her through the ringer for a boy who could have been raised perfectly well elsewhere, who should have been raised elsewhere. Occasionally she brought the issue up again, to see if Ned noticed what a trial it was for everyone involved and would then do something about it, but he refused to do so. He refused.

It's Ned who made this particular bed. Catelyn had three choices: give up and be nice because that's clearly what Ned wanted, refuse to give up and never let anyone forget that Jon's presence was not her choice, or pack up and go home, leading the life of an estranged wife and almost certainly having to abandon Robb because I can't imagine Ned would let her take his son and heir away.

I'm the sort of person who believes that if you have a grievance against your spouse - you'd have to take it out with the adult (wife or husband) and leave the children out of it.

The issue is not what Ned did or didn't. Actually he was an idiot for not seeing the problem that Jon faced in the household (or would cause his wife).

The issue is what Catelyn did about it. If she had not been nice with her husband, fine. But she's taking out her resentment, on a fricking CHILD for 15 years!!! I mean seriously can you imagine living with a mother figure who treats you coldly for 15 years? That's pretty horrible.

Even if the child was godawful Ramsay Snow that's no way for an adult, who has a strong sense of a moral code of ethics, to treat a child.

[The Roaring Bear]

Soo.... I'm back and forth on Catelyn.

She does a lot of things that piss me off and make me hate her, but then theres other times where she is completely brilliant.

I loved the way she tried to mediate between Stannis and Renly, then how she was quick enough to get herself and Brienne out of the camp once Renly was killed (especially since Loras just went on a rampage killing anyone he thought was involved there without any proof). Another smart move was her insistance on Robb accepting food from Frey before the red wedding, thinking that would give him protection throughout their stay (not realizing that such an old man has nothing to lose in breaking tradition with guest rights).

Her hatred of Jon Snow is somewhat understandable, I mean, he is a constant insult to her, but at the same time her children love him and he grew up in her household, it seems odd that she never gained any compassion towards him. I understand it, and I love it because it is a character flaw, something that I think GRRM is wonderful at providing us, and not just giving stock characterizations, but at the same time it does piss me off.

Really, for me the only stupid thing she did was free Jaime. I understand that she was distraught, but it would have made more sense in my mind for her to kill him if she was so distraught. This, along with her disregard for the Karstarks feelings just seemed... well stupid and selfish, and very out of character for her.

I dont know, she has a tendency to piss me off, and she has done something very very stupid, but to call her a retard overall or stupid or anything I think is ridiculous.

[Ran]

What was killing him going to do? It wasn't bringing any of the dead back. He wasn't stopping Tywin from prosecuting his war by means foul or fair.

It was selfish to want her daughters back. But it was also the only reasonable policy once it became clear that Jaime was a hostage whose only value was in trade for what the Starks wanted. Had Jaime been traded away in ACoK, they would have gotten Sansa back, and a bunch of northmen lords and heirs besides I expect -- Harrion Karstark, for example, and who knows, maybe Lord Cerwyn would have survived if freed and was given more attention by maesters (though probably not). Sansa would either have been in Riverrun or perhaps White Harbor when news of the sack of Winterfell went out -- that kind of cripples the whole fake Arya gambit a bit, doesn't it? And, well, the Karstark desertion wouldn't have happened, of course, because the situation would probably not have come up.

So, I don't know. It was selfish, but it was also right, based on the knowledge she had.

[The Roaring Bear]

What was killing him going to do? It wasn't bringing any of the dead back. He wasn't stopping Tywin from prosecuting his war by means foul or fair.

I didnt say killing him would accomplish anything, it would just seem more realistic to me from a grief stricken mother.

It was selfish to want her daughters back. But it was also the only reasonable policy once it became clear that Jaime was a hostage whose only value was in trade for what the Starks wanted. Had Jaime been traded away in ACoK, they would have gotten Sansa back, and a bunch of northmen lords and heirs besides I expect -- Harrion Karstark, for example, and who knows, maybe Lord Hornwood would have survived if freed and was given more attention by maesters (though probably not). Sansa would either have been in Riverrun or perhaps White Harbor when news of the sack of Winterfell went out -- that kind of cripples the whole fake Arya gambit a bit, doesn't it? And, well, the Karstark desertion wouldn't have happened, of course, because the situation would probably not have come up.

So, I don't know. It was selfish, but it was also right, based on the knowledge she had.

If we are going on reasonable excuses here, based on the knowledge she had it does not make sense for her to expect an oathbreaker to keep an oath. It especially does not stand to reason to expect an oathbreaker to keep an oath that he has made at sword point. Furthermore, realising that Jaime's only value is for trade, it does not make sense to just release him into the wild war torn Riverlands with only one escort tough as she may be. The only excuse for all of this is her grief, and as I stated, of all the actions I can see grief causing her to take, this seemed to be the most unrealistic, whereas killing Jaime does seem more realistic; especially since I feel Catelyn would be aware of what a bad idea just releasing Jaime was.

[Lord Theon Greyjoy]

Catelyn is no idiot =)

But, as mentioned I think she was incredibly selfish in freeing Jaime. Grief may be an excuse. Jaime was the "king" of chess pieces though, affording Robb the political practise (it's spelled like that where I'm from) he so sorely needed.

In a nutshell - Jaime wasn't hers to give but I guess she, along with her loyalists paid for that.

I like her character though - a proactive lass.

[Crown]

Catelyn is no idiot =)

But, as mentioned I think she was incredibly selfish in freeing Jaime. Grief may be an excuse. Jaime was the "king" of chess pieces though, affording Robb the political practise (it's spelled like that where I'm from) he so sorely needed.

In a nutshell - Jaime wasn't hers to give but I guess she, along with her loyalists paid for that.

I like her character though - a proactive lass.

No, he wasn't the 'king' piece in the chess game. Tywin already started organizing the Red Wedding with Jamie still in custody of Rob. Sacrifices must be made, was I guess Tywin's thought on this.

[Lord Theon Greyjoy]

Clearly, and in any case I meant how it was perceived by Robb's army and in relation to the point I was making for the topic in hand. Jaime was a major coup for them.

[lyvyathan]

Really, for me the only stupid thing she did was free Jaime. I understand that she was distraught, but it would have made more sense in my mind for her to kill him if she was so distraught. This, along with her disregard for the Karstarks feelings just seemed... well stupid and selfish, and very out of character for her.

You forgot her decision to bury the dead soldiers in the Vale, despite the fact that there were murderous mountain men bearing down onto them and the fact that it was too cold and rocky to do so. It was only when her escorts, including Bron, refused to listen to her and walked off that she changed her mind, albeit with great anger.

etc...

[Ran]

It was only when her escorts, including Bronn, refused to listen...

You aren't remembering this scene correctly. No one walks away. Bronn is the only one who outright refuses. Did most of them agree with him and Ser Willis Wode and Ser Rodrik? Sure, I imagine they did. But unlike Bronn, none of them were going to scoff at her.

It's when Ser Rodrik shares the advice that they can't linger that she agrees. Is she angry? Sure she is, those are brave men who deserve better than being left to carrion birds and shadowcats. Of course she's angry at the idea of having to leave them like that. But presented with the fact that there really wasn't another option, she made the right choice.

A lack of experience, perhaps, leading her to assume that having defeated this band of wildlings they'll be left alone for awhile. Which, when advised otherwise, lead her to accept the truth.

Nothing stupid in that.

Medievalist,

If we are going on reasonable excuses here, based on the knowledge she had it does not make sense for her to expect an oathbreaker to keep an oath.

She wasn't. She expected Tyrion to keep the promise he made before the entire court, as acting Hand. Jaime realized this pretty quickly, if you don't recall. Unfortunately, changes in circumstances led Tywin to take over as Hand and he found it very easy to shrug off the promises the Iron Throne had made.

[slayer420]

I think it all comes down that bad decision to take the Imp. I know she make a lot of other bad ones, but this is the one that made me hate her. I know you can try and justify it with she had to protect them from finding out that she went to KL. That argument does not hold water though. By taking him she does exactly what she is trying to prevent. How does taking the Imp help from endangering Ned more that just being seen on the kings road? To me this is far worse and puts Ned and her daughters in more danger. She also took him in a crowd of people. Why not wait till he leaves then take him on the road, that would have made more since. She made a rash decision and her WHOLE family paid a heavy price.

[Ran]

How does taking the Imp help from endangering Ned more that just being seen on the kings road? To me this is far worse and puts Ned and her daughters in more danger.

Because Tyrion is now a prisoner, and so he's a hostage, and more importantly she envisioned a rather different result to what happened in the Vale. She expected to get Lysa's evidence for her claims, to combine that with what she know, and to have Tyrion there to interrogate and corroborate.

I've already noted that the confusion of the situation and the focus on Tyrion being captured appears to have led the Lannisters to never wonder about what she was doing in the south -- specifically, they had absolutely no idea she had ever been in King's Landing.

Why not wait till he leaves then take him on the road, that would have made more since...

Because having Rodrik go up one-on-one against Tyrion, Morrec, and (more importantly) Jyck the man-at-arms seemed a lot riskier? She's still going to have to gather more men and explain what she means to do to get them, so she's kind of stuck. If she absolutely believes she needs to stop him from getting to King's Landing to reveal she had been on the way back from there, this is really the only time in which she can act.

[Colibri]

I'm not exactly very fond of her character, but I don't think she's stupid. She did what she thought it was right (it wasn't very smart,I agree), but she expected a different outcome in the Vale.

And in the case of Jaime, she never intended to trust him, it was Tyrion's words she was counting on, even he realized that very quickly. But, as always, nothing goes as planned and Tywin assumed before the trade could be effectuated.

[Phat Walda]

I'm the sort of person who believes that if you have a grievance against your spouse - you'd have to take it out with the adult (wife or husband) and leave the children out of it.

The issue is not what Ned did or didn't. Actually he was an idiot for not seeing the problem that Jon faced in the household (or would cause his wife).

The issue is what Catelyn did about it. If she had not been nice with her husband, fine. But she's taking out her resentment, on a fricking CHILD for 15 years!!! I mean seriously can you imagine living with a mother figure who treats you coldly for 15 years? That's pretty horrible.

Even if the child was godawful Ramsay Snow that's no way for an adult, who has a strong sense of a moral code of ethics, to treat a child.

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

It was NOT JON'S FAULT. He didn't tell his dad Ned to bring him to Winterfell, and we don't KNOW that he could have been raised anywhere else, that's just speculation. Catelyn tells Jon that she wishes HE HAD BEEN THROWN OFF THE ROOF, and he was so used to her treating him this way that he didn't even reply or weep or tell Robb. (And Robb has clearly seen her behave this way, since he says, "My mother..." the minute he sees that Jon is upset.)

[Jorge Contreras]

I think Martin gives us a depiction of the Starks as a fammily that thinks a lot with the hearth and not with the brain, they all are so naive, with the exception of Arya, but also, Arya is a very emotional girl, she never thinks coldly, but she has the gods over her, because she is far from the danger while wandering upside down, and only thinks and wants revenge.

Eddard was so honourable that this virtue was the cause of his doom and death for going to Cersei and telling her all that he knows and what is going to do, and having confidence with Varys, Little Finger and everybody, he was near to tell every kingslander what he ws doing and what he was looking for.

Robb was a 15 year old kid with good military skills but he was procclaimed King in the North by a bunch of very ambitious noblemen who used him and his cause for their own ambitions to sack and attack the southern lords, more rich than them, finnally, after the Ironmen invaded the North and Theon attacked and seized Winterfell, most of them seemed to realize that Robb's enthronement was only a farse, and Robb's position got compromised and wakened after Lord Karstark execution showed to be unfair and cruel.

Sansa is such a dumb girl that is not to mention here, but, finally, talking about Catelyn, she is acting moved by her feelings and impressions, but not by thinking about facts, information and reality. She makes me think that she has some political intuition and diplomatic skills, but they all lies ruined by her impulsiveness and sentimentalism, so, it was clear since the begining of the story, that Catelin and Robb were doomed, their defeat and death were completely predictables. The only Starks that show more inteligence were Jon Snow who gains it with experiences, Bran, thanks to Jojen's teachings, and Arya, who obtains cleverness just to go to her objective: her revenge. the rest are doomed.

[Jorge Contreras]

I think Martin gives us a depiction of the Starks as a fammily that thinks a lot with the hearth and not with the brain, they all are so naive, with the exception of Arya, but also, Arya is a very emotional girl, she never thinks coldly, but she has the gods over her, because she is far from the danger while wandering upside down, and only thinks and wants revenge.

Eddard was so honourable that this virtue was the cause of his doom and death for going to Cersei and telling her all that he knows and what is going to do, and having confidence with Varys, Little Finger and everybody, he was near to tell every kingslander what he ws doing and what he was looking for.

Robb was a 15 year old kid with good military skills but he was procclaimed King in the North by a bunch of very ambitious noblemen who used him and his cause for their own ambitions to sack and attack the southern lords, more rich than them, finnally, after the Ironmen invaded the North and Theon attacked and seized Winterfell, most of them seemed to realize that Robb's enthronement was only a farse, and Robb's position got compromised and wakened after Lord Karstark execution showed to be unfair and cruel.

Sansa is such a dumb girl that is not to mention here, but, finally, talking about Catelyn, she is acting moved by her feelings and impressions, but not by thinking about facts, information and reality. She makes me think that she has some political intuition and diplomatic skills, but they all lies ruined by her impulsiveness and sentimentalism, so, it was clear since the begining of the story, that Catelin and Robb were doomed, their defeat and death were completely predictables. The only Starks that show more inteligence were Jon Snow who gains it with experiences, Bran, thanks to Jojen's teachings, and Arya, who obtains cleverness just to go to her objective: her revenge. the rest are doomed.

[teemo]

lol, I read the title of this thread and laughed. I have said that out loud while reading ASOIAF so many times. "God, Catelyn is an idiot!" Her capturing Tyrion is what really started it, and then after grievance and grievance I think Cat became so depressed and unstable that she just could not make a rational decision. She was desperate and clinging for straws. I also am on the bandwagon with thinking the way she treated Jon was despicable. While in the show they toned it down a bit, go back to the book and see how she treated him after Bran was thrown...she told Jon it should have been him instead! I mean, I understand having some resentment, but damn...it's not Jon's fault he was born!

[ICE CROW]

Catelyn an Idiot absolutely not, overly wrapped up in concern for her family which lead to making some less than wise decisions yes. Im not sure how far along everyone is in their read so i won't say much, but Catelyn may have made some mistakes but she was the only one who truly understands how important the Wolves and their connection to her children are.

[Septon_Meribald]

I can understand that some people don't like her but saying she is an idiot is completely and utterly wrong. She gave very good councel to Robb and made some good decisions while of course you could argue if tha was the best approach. Problem with her decisions were actually other people like Lysa and Robb who did not hear her councel for one reason or the other. Particularly, release of Jaimes was a very hard choice but for a woman who has lost her husband and almost her son while two of her doughters lives hang opon a thread but not for us to judge. The whole reason for going to war was getting ned and her doughters back while releasing riverrun. People seem to forget this point. They didn't intend to crush tywins armies as King Renly had a very big host and if he prevailed then Robb could bend the knee afterwards or just keep the north on some agreement.

[lyvyathan]

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

It was NOT JON'S FAULT. He didn't tell his dad Ned to bring him to Winterfell, and we don't KNOW that he could have been raised anywhere else, that's just speculation. Catelyn tells Jon that she wishes HE HAD BEEN THROWN OFF THE ROOF, and he was so used to her treating him this way that he didn't even reply or weep or tell Robb. (And Robb has clearly seen her behave this way, since he says, "My mother..." the minute he sees that Jon is upset.)

Try telling that to all the Catelyn fans.

[Planetary]

I think it might help your reading if you realize that its not really Catelyn Stark's fault for being who or what she is, but rather what the author wrote her out to be. :D

I see her as the flip side of Cersei Lannister. Catelyn and Cersei are remarkably very similar - proud, rash, impetuous, prone to irrational decisions, and liable to take any disagreement with their actions as a personal affront and very poor in their logic base decision making.

You can read why the decision to kidnap Tyrion was irrational because she doesn't think carefully over her decisions.

Or : why Catelyn's decision was really stupid

http://asoiaf.wester...ost__p__2751127

I wished that GRRM wrote a really good intelligent, sensible character was had the brains of LF - mayhaps "The Lady of Thorns" might be such a character but we can't be certain at this stage.

But as it is - most of the women character come off very badly in GRRM's world- either than the victims or idiots - the Martell "snakes" are terrible caricatures imho.

Agreed. Also, the gay characters are horrific stereotypes. Martin isn't bold enough to outright say they're gay, so he resorts to absurdities like the Rainbow Guard and talking about how Renly loves interior decorating, clothes and throwing parties.

Catelyn Stark's PoV chapters are all-out misery fests. I think I understand what Martin is trying to do, and I know much of it is a clumsy attempt at showing a mother's fears. But it makes it awfully difficult to care about or relate to the character.

Another point worth mentioning: While watching GoT with my girlfriend, at one point she turned to me and said, "How do those kids come from a woman like that?"