Catelyn is an idiot

[Ran]

For the last time: the Rainbow Guard has nothing whatsoever to do with Renly's sexuality. The rainbow had been established as a symbol of the Faith very early in AGoT. GRRM has explicitly said this, so let it rest.

and he was so used to her treating him

No he wasn't. GRRM again says he wasn't. Re-read that scene and you'll see Jon implicitly indicates that something like this had never happened before!

[Planetary]

For the last time: the Rainbow Guard has nothing whatsoever to do with Renly's sexuality. The rainbow had been established as a symbol of the Faith very early in AGoT. GRRM has explicitly said this, so let it rest.

Backpeddling, probably. He knows rainbows are strongly linked to LBGT in the minds of readers. He's lazy in his other half-ass suggestions that Renly might be gay, so there's no reason to think this wasn't another bit of lazy stereotyping. This is a matter of opinion and interpretation, not "I'm telling you you're wrong, so drop it."

Obviously, the majority of folks new to the series haven't been talking about this for years. It may be tedious to you, but you're posting in a "still reading" subsection, yeah?

[Ran]

He's a baby boomer. The rainbow has gained currency relatively recently as as an LGBT image -- it wasn't even used until 1978, when George was already 30. In the 90s, an independent political party that had nothing to do with LGBT rights made a run at the presidency under the name of the Rainbow Coalition and no one argued that this indicated some sort of connection to the LGBT movement. I can't be the only person in my thirties who still doesn't see the rainbow depicted somewhere as being obviously connected to LGBT rights (despite being fairly liberal and pro-LGBT rights), and to suppose someone who's over 60 must see it that way just seems baffling.

Through the three-quarters of the 20th century, in fact, the rainbow banner was associated with the peace movement, not with LGBT rights ... and the fact that GRRM happened to decide that the rainbow banner in Westeros is used as a sign of truce and parley probably suggests that that is the foremost connection in his mind between rainbows and banners.

[alguien]

Living in Chicago, that's ALL we see the rainbow flag as. Which is fine.

This felt to me like a happy coincidence. I believe ETA: GRRM thought of the rainbow religious symbol as a shamrock-trinity-metaphor on his own--without any thought to its significance for the LGBT movement. Its a real cool version of the Catholic trinity and it allows for a pantheon of 7 instead of three.

However, Stannis's maester specifically connects Renly's choice of a Rainbow guard with his boyhood flamboyance. This is the guy who inserted the Three Stooges into his books. I can't believe that a former Chicago resident who went on to live in LA wasn't aware of what the rainbow flag symbolized in the USA in the 90's when he first wrote Game of Thrones and Clash. Just like Loras being nicknamed the Knight of Flowers. George isn't always exactly subtle when it comes to his portrayal of gay characters, remember Mystery Knight?

[Ran]

GRRM left Chicago in the mid-70's, before the rainbow LGBT flag was created (at least, Wikipedia says it was created in 1978).

I also don't think Knight of Flowers or Renly's love of pageantry are actually supposed to be indicative of anything, either, to be honest. George was looking at the high medieval pageantry as inspiration for the Reach and for that kind of chivalric culture that is embodied there. Are we supposed to consider the Tudors to have been closet cases because of the Tudor rose... ?

[alguien]

Yeah, but Ran, by the 90's (when GRRM wrote the first two books IIRC) the rainbow flag was a pretty well-accepted symbol of LGBT culture in the US. I'd be pretty surprised if he wasn't aware of that fact.

Look, I agree with you that he almost certainly didn't decide to use rainbows as a symbol of the Faith with a LGBT theme in mind, but I also know that he loves to insert little winks and nudges to pop culture throughout his books. I can very well see GRRM chuckling as he decides to show Renly's "devoutness" by having his knights be called the Rainbow Guard... not to mention the scene where the Maester remembered a flamboyant boy Renly running around with multi-colored silks proclaiming he was a wizard, then thinking "Look at Me! I'm a King!"

[The GRRumbler]

Yeah, but Ran, by the 90's (when GRRM wrote the first two books IIRC) the rainbow flag was a pretty well-accepted symbol of LGBT culture in the US. I'd be pretty surprised if he wasn't aware of that fact.

Look, I agree with you that he almost certainly didn't decide to use rainbows as a symbol of the Faith with a LGBT theme in mind, but I also know that he loves to insert little winks and nudges to pop culture throughout his books. I can very well see GRRM chuckling as he decides to show Renly's "devoutness" by having his knights be called the Rainbow Guard... not to mention the scene where the Maester remembered a flamboyant boy Renly running around with multi-colored silks proclaiming he was a wizard, then thinking "Look at Me! I'm a King!"

Pretty much yeah, i always thought the Rainbow Guard as a reference to gay culture, and i don't see as a mockery of such culture, but rather as a display of a gay man in a position of power, with is quite interesting imo.

Anyways, does it really matters what GRRM's original intention was? I mean, if this fact gets to the gay community as a positive thing whats the problem?

[Ran]

Yes... but GRRM specifically indicated that he was not thinking about that at all. So to hold to your position, alguien, you'll have to believe that for some reason George is unwilling to admit it was a wink or nod... when he's very willing to admit many other winks and nods (the Three Stooges, House Jordayne of the Tor, etc.) he has in the books.

Isn't it easier to just take him at his word? What possible purpose is there for him to outright deny something if he did it? Given that he wasn't being coy about Renly and Loras being lovers at that time?

[Light a wight tonight]

Really? "The woman should be back taking care of her children instead of getting involved in war and politics" has nothing sexist in it? Right...

Firstly, that's an inaccurate rending of what was said. It's easy to twist things to make someone you disagree with look bad.

Secondly, she was the surviving parent. She had no duty to her kids?

[David Selig]

Since you are so much against twisting the words of others, could you please show me where I said she had no duty to her kids? Robb is her child too, BTW.

[lyvyathan]

Agreed. Also, the gay characters are horrific stereotypes. Martin isn't bold enough to outright say they're gay, so he resorts to absurdities like the Rainbow Guard and talking about how Renly loves interior decorating, clothes and throwing parties.

To make matters worse - HBO deliberately chooses a gross caricature of Renly and added in a totally unnecessary sex scene. What was the point to that?

[lyvyathan]

Living in Chicago, that's ALL we see the rainbow flag as. Which is fine.

This felt to me like a happy coincidence. I believe ETA: GRRM thought of the rainbow religious symbol as a shamrock-trinity-metaphor on his own--without any thought to its significance for the LGBT movement. Its a real cool version of the Catholic trinity and it allows for a pantheon of 7 instead of three.

However, Stannis's maester specifically connects Renly's choice of a Rainbow guard with his boyhood flamboyance. This is the guy who inserted the Three Stooges into his books. I can't believe that a former Chicago resident who went on to live in LA wasn't aware of what the rainbow flag symbolized in the USA in the 90's when he first wrote Game of Thrones and Clash. Just like Loras being nicknamed the Knight of Flowers. George isn't always exactly subtle when it comes to his portrayal of gay characters, remember Mystery Knight?

haha. Who are the Three Stooges in the ASOIAF series?

[Manberg900]

Wasn't the book written before the Rainbow became the official symbol for Gays?

[Planetary]

I think we've got to look at the totality of Martin's descriptive work in regard to Renly. He's described as flamboyant. At least two characters say he loves dressing up and throwing parties. He's got the Rainbow Guard, which is ridiculed by several other characters. Stannis tells Renly his wife will remain a maid as long as she's married to him. Jaime Lannister threatens to shove Loras' sword into a place "even Renly couldn't find." Margaery was still a maid when she came to King's Landing, even though we can assume there were ample opportunities to bed her, including the wedding-night "bedding" ritual. There's quite a bit of talk about how Renly is not as manly as his brothers due to his lack of bloodlust, battle experience, combat prowess and so on.

I think it's fair to say there are some sly winks by the author, and some stereotypes too.

[Drowsey Dragon]

To make matters worse - HBO deliberately chooses a gross caricature of Renly and added in a totally unnecessary sex scene. What was the point to that?

That was totally unnecessary and not in the spirit of the books, which were clearly ambiguous. I believe the reference to the Rainbow Guard was a tongue in cheek and not too subtle display of Renlys homosexuality.

There is no doubt GRRM knew about the connection when he wrote the book. It was wide spread in the 90s - rainbow colors & gays.

Who can conceive of Robert, Stannis or Ned marching with Rainbow Capes?

[Ran]

The Warrior's Sons, we now know, are all closeted gay men -- they, too, wear rainbow cloaks. :P

I could concieve Robert, Stannis, or Ned wearing a rainbow cloak, if it fit their heraldry.

Sorry, I simply haven't sublimated the idea that rainbows "equal" gay. Rainbows are rainbows, a lovely natural phenomena, the subject of heraldry historically (the heraldic rainbow has 4 colors, BTW; the LGBT rainbow has 6; Martin's rainbow has 7, which is what we commonly see and which is why it recommended itself to him as a symbol of the Seven), quite a lot of art and use and depiction in contexts outside of LGBT rights (in fact, a search for "Rainbow" doesn't yield a single LGBT-related event, group, or other reference in at least the first five pages of a Google search -- you find companies named Rainbow Cleaning Systems as an example [near and dear to my heart -- my father used to sell their vacuum cleaners door-to-door to make extra money when I was young, as a soldier's wages weren't quite stretching far enough]).

Give it a rest already.

[HyacinthGirl]

What's with all the Cat bashing? There are so many characters that are idiotic, treacherous or evil to hate on, yet when I joined these forums it seemed like Catelyn was public enemy number one.

I'm not saying she's perfect or I love her, but one anti-Cat thread is enough, no? Not hundreds.

Also, it's ridiculous to say the war of the 5 kings was her fault. It's not any one person's fault. Except maybe Littlefinger.

[Horza]

Well she was mean to Jon Snow, which was the Original Sin of Westeros from which all subsequent misery has flowed.

[Balefont]

Well she was mean to Jon Snow, which was the Original Sin of Westeros from which all subsequent misery has flowed.

This.

[lyvyathan]

Okay, tell me how you feel if your spouse and two smallest children die due to your son's friend's betrayal. On top of it, she already believes Arya dead (And is praying that Jaime is able to return her not if he will) and Sansa is in the hands of her enemies.

But Catelyn Stark is no ordinary person, she's not common folk. She's a noblewoman - of House Stark and House Tully. What she does, every action she makes has reprecussions.

She's also an adult and she should have known better.