Could Lightbringer be the Night's Watch?

[mor2]

Yes, I know that this explanation is given, but for me it's not satisfactory. Sure, the NW man will not involve himself on behalf of that family if he hasn't got one. Though: as we know everybody at the Wall already has families! They have parents, siblings, they may even have a wife or a son. The NW then expects them to forsake these families who are far away from them and kind of pretend they don't exist. Which is quite unrealistic as we have seen in Jon's case. And Jon is a pretty honorable guy.

Now instead of having these families far away, let's imagine, they have them at the Wall. Why would they then be unwilling to support the NW? There would be whole families in support of the NW instead of just the men, enabling these men to enjoy true feelings of happiness. And they would have a much better reason to protect the Wall then just a vow (words are wind!), they'd protect their families. To most people their families are much more valuable then an oath.

sure normally it would be so, but lets put it bluntly the Wall has always been considered a backwater,cold shit hole, with civilization being hundreds of leags away in the warm south and it's purpose is defending against some imaginary foe, some barbarians. You seem to think that people want to go the wall, but as you seen since Aegon conquest, that hasnt been the case, from over 5000 men Castle black alone, we are left with less than 1000 men total.

The watch stood 8000 years, because of those vows, it was the "honorable retirement" option, which people were offered rather than the headsman block. with time it seemed like more than that, regarded with honor and duty but overall it was always a "jail" and when less nobles/knights was forced there it lost it's popularity, so you can argue that those vows dont make sense or crule but they are what that kept this organization alive for much longer than any other.

another argument could be made that today, after aegon conquest, this rule dont make much sense as it was proven by the watch gradual dwindling in power(Brothers and people in the gifts), especially Now after their demise in the Fist of the first men and the Others threat, they just dont have any choice if they want to survive and with no solutions other than the wildlings convinently sitting on their porch, it's just a no brainier.

edited, to deal with my crappy english.

[kissdbyfire]

I don't know about a builder but Dolorous Edd is his friend. I hope he lives.

Yes, Dolorous Edd too. :thumbsup:

The one I meant to add in my previous post is Halder.

[Serie]

do you think that the towers Jon Snow attempted to restore will play any part in NW revival or is it of minor importance? if nothing else it could help in NightWatch's men/wildlings bonding. Or the quite opposite...

[kissdbyfire]

do you think that the towers Jon Snow attempted to restore will play any part in NW revival or is it of minor importance? if nothing else it could help in NightWatch's men/wildlings bonding. Or the quite opposite...

I don't know whether other castles have as much history as the Nightfort nor if they will have major significance. For instance, magic related stuff. Is the magic in the Wall even throughout its length? Or are there some castles that have been specifically imbued in a more potent or meaningful way?

But I do believe the thing you mention about the bonding between NW men and wildlings is something really important. And I suppose we'll have a little of both in the sense that it will go smoother in some cases but definitely not in all instances. I think the NW men who are/were Jon's friends and those who are/were more 'neutral' or undecided will bond well with the wildlings because they will be less biased. I think (hope) these men will understand that people have to be less prejudiced and more tolerant if they're to stand a chance of surviving. On the other hand, those men clearly opposed to Jon will have a very hard time bonding with the wildlings, and won't accept the possibility of change to the NW.

I've been thinking a lot about two things:

1 - I keep trying to play the continuation of Jon's stabbing scene in my head in different ways, but the outcome (in my head) is pretty much always the same: the wildlings, men loyal to Jon, Wun Wun, etc will tear Bowen Marsh and his cronies to bits (maybe not literally, maybe they won't get killed; just captured and thrown in an ice cell). I simply can't picture it going differently than that.

2 - Alliser Thorne - Now, this is an interesting character. I don't like the person he is; if I knew him, I wouldn't want to be friends with him. But I find him an interesting character. And he's gone ranging, and we don't know what's happened to him. Was he one of the 'foes' Coldhands deals with and became a snack for Summer? Or is it possible he's escaped and is... somewhere?

I have absolutely nothing to back this up, and I know it may belong in the 'crackpot bucket'. But I would love if he not only turned up at Castle Black but sided with Jon, or with Jon's plans for the NW. :lmao:

[mor2]

It's hard for me to see the Wildlings bond with NW, they fought to long and lost to much for that and with so many of the good guys dead or spread around and with most of the wildlings considered a burden, it's hard to see the situation improve, still people who fight togther Bond.

regarding the NW way castles, I really hope to see them come to play, otherwise it will be a boring magic/dragon/one hero fight to win the day :|

[kissdbyfire]

It's hard for me to see the Wildlings bond with NW, they fought to long and lost to much for that and with so many of the good guys dead or spread around and with most of the wildlings considered a burden, it's hard to see the situation improve, still people who fight togther Bond.

regarding the NW way castles, I really hope to see them come to play, otherwise it will be a boring magic/dragon/one hero fight to win the day :|

I hear you, and I think the premise is sound. But I think that this 'bonding' is the point, ultimately. Not just between wildlings and NW, but in a much broader sense. Tolerance, acceptance, no (or less) prejudice and bias. I may be dreaming, of course.

[Ghost Rider]

sure normally it would be so, but lets put it bluntly the Wall has always been considered a backwater,cold shit hole, with civilization being hundreds of leags away in the warm south and it's purpose is defending against some imaginary foe, some barbarians. You seem to think that people want to go the wall, but as you seen since Aegon conquest, that hasnt been the case, from over 5000 men Castle black alone, we are left with less than 1000 men total.

Yeah, I know, it's not the first place any sane man would consider going... nowadays.

I guess I was thinking of comparable historical situations like the settlement of Germans in Eastern Europe (e.g. in today's Transsilvania in the 13th century) which was then also a very thinly populated mountaineous region in constant danger of foreign attacks. That's why they were expected to not only make their living there, but to defend the land against invaders.

To incent people to go there, they got privileges, like the right to elect their own judges. They had to pay less taxes. If they even still needed one, seeing that Central Europe's population was growing fast.

I guess we can agree that day-to-day life isn't a piece of cake in the South of Westeros either. So if you promise them the freedom to decide their own affairs, coupled with lesser taxes the gift could possibly be resettled in no time at all. People usually don't mind all that much to fight for their own lands and their own family.

Of course my premise is that the South is densely populated, but seeing the level of oppression there, it's hard to imagine otherwise. The Nobles simply wouldn't be able to treat their smallfolk like the dirt on their shoes, if the smallfolk would be very welcome in other regions as an additional work force. It can only be explained that it's hard to escape from overly oppressive lords, if there weren't any better opportunities for the smallfolk.

From that perspective I do wonder why the NW is short on manpower. At least there the men were fed and had a place to stay - which is considered a privilege when Jon's upbringing is discussed. ("other people had it much worse, they went hungry etc." - well guys, there's always the NW!) They even get to elect their own commander. Well, if I had to decide between being a peasant in Clegane lands and being a member of NW, it'd be a no-brainer for me. (only they wouldn't have me as a woman :()

"True NW must swear in front of a Hearttree" - I'm not sure I understood this the way you meant it. If I did, I disagree. For instance, I'd assume maester Aemon didn't make his vows in front of a hearttree; I consider him one of the truest among the NW men.

Yeah, Aemon is a good and a wise man, I don't doubt that at all. There are lots of good, honest and true men in all of Westeros, but does that make them NW? I was talking more about possible magical implications of the vow, not about personal qualitities.

It could be unimportant that Sam was the one to pass the Weirwood door and he also swore in front of a Hearttree, but for me that isn't very likely. The NW vows aren't exactly a secret, so if everybody could just answer the question "who are you?" with the words of the NW, it wouldn't be a great magical barrier.

"It didn't surprise me at all that Jon didn't find true friends in the NW. The closest he comes to a friend is Sam and even then the dynamic of their relationship is asymmetric." - I disagree with this as well. I think Jon did make true friends in the NW. Sam, Grenn, Pyp...

I think these guys have become Jon's true friends; as to the friendship being asymetric, I don't see it as a big deal. I think it means even more if it is 'asymetric'. It's too easy to become friends with someone who is just like us. It's similar to what maester Aemon says about honour and duty - 'it's easy do do the honourable thing when nothing is really demanded of you' (paraphrasing); and Eddard telling Bran a man can only be brave when he's afraid.

Well, here's off topic and in principle it's interesting enough to deserve a thread of its own. :D I hope, Apple Martini will forgive me.

I guess it really depends on your understanding of what friendship is and that differs immensely in various cultural settings as well as from person to person.

I have probably a rather strict definition of friendship, I think it's rare and precious. Of course you can have human relationships with other persons as well, you can work together with them, help them. That's only decent. You can like them and have fun with them. But is it friendship?

A friend to me is someone who understands you on a very deep personal level and who is able to meet you there. It is someone I can trust with my weakness and my less then favorable character traits. Someone who can help to come to decisions that are hard for me and may even touch my understanding of self and to who I can return the favour. And yes, for me that kind of relationship indeed needs persons who meet each other on a comparable level. Because it is taking and giving.

And that's why I don't think that there's a true friendship between Grenn, Pyp and Jon. I didn't get the feeling that they understood what was going on with Jon at the end of ASOS. Of course, Jon's a very private person, he doesn't share his thoughts just with everybody. But really, that's what friends are for, aren't they? And he doesn't have any in that sense.

I do think they respect him as a person and he respects and likes them back, but they are much closer to each other then to Jon. Maybe a friendship could have developped in time, but Jon's higher position prevented that because it further set him apart from the others. Pyp didn't recognize or understood that Jon's new position demanded reserve and diplomacy which is why he couldn't join in the japes about Melisandre.

Even Sam who is intellectually more on a level with Jon was thinking that being LC had changed him for the worse because of the baby switch. And Sam knew the demands and responsibilities of high office in theory.

[kissdbyfire]

Yeah, Aemon is a good and a wise man, I don't doubt that at all. There are lots of good, honest and true men in all of Westeros, but does that make them NW? I was talking more about possible magical implications of the vow, not about personal qualitities.

You make an interesting point here. And I think I wasn't very clear in my previous post... I think maester Aemon not only is a good and honourable man, I also think he is a true member of the NW; also, being a Targaryen, I assume he didn't make his vows in front of a weirwood. My point is, I understand what you've said before, and I agree to a degree - but I think it is at least possible that some men who didn't make their vows in front of a weirwood are still true men of the NW.

It could be unimportant that Sam was the one to pass the Weirwood door and he also swore in front of a Hearttree, but for me that isn't very likely. The NW vows aren't exactly a secret, so if everybody could just answer the question "who are you?" with the words of the NW, it wouldn't be a great magical barrier.

Yes, I agree. I hadn't actually thought about this through this perspective but reading your post, it makes perfect sense. :agree:

Well, here's off topic and in principle it's interesting enough to deserve a thread of its own. :D I hope, Apple Martini will forgive me.

Gods be good! I both agree and disagree with so many things here! There's much and more I'd like to say on the topic but I agree with you, it's too off-topic...

Guys, forgive me for excessive use of ASoIaF vernacular, I simply can't help myself. :rolleyes:

[tze]

Yeah, Aemon is a good and a wise man, I don't doubt that at all. There are lots of good, honest and true men in all of Westeros, but does that make them NW? I was talking more about possible magical implications of the vow, not about personal qualitities.

It could be unimportant that Sam was the one to pass the Weirwood door and he also swore in front of a Hearttree, but for me that isn't very likely. The NW vows aren't exactly a secret, so if everybody could just answer the question "who are you?" with the words of the NW, it wouldn't be a great magical barrier.

That might explain why the Watch abandoned the Nightfort in the first place. Yes, it's the oldest and largest castle on the Wall, and yes, Queen Alysanne's jewels bought them a brand new castle at Deep Lake (which was abandoned relatively quickly, might I add), but . . . dude. Magical, impenetrable Gate. That's a pretty good thing to have. And lord knows what other magical secrets the Nightfort contains.

But if those who say their vows in the sept cannot open the Black Gate, then as more and more southerners joined the Watch, fewer and fewer men would have been able to open the Black Gate at all. A Gate that the wildlings can't force their way through is all well and good until you reach a point when most of the Watchmen at the Nightfort can't even open it themselves. And I can't imagine that high-ranking, 7-worshipping members of the Watch would have liked being constantly reminded that the Old Gods have more power at the Wall than the 7.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That might explain why the Watch abandoned the Nightfort in the first place. Yes, it's the oldest and largest castle on the Wall, and yes, Queen Alysanne's jewels bought them a brand new castle at Deep Lake (which was abandoned relatively quickly, might I add), but . . . dude. Magical, impenetrable Gate. That's a pretty good thing to have. And lord knows what other magical secrets the Nightfort contains.

But if those who say their vows in the sept cannot open the Black Gate, then as more and more southerners joined the Watch, fewer and fewer men would have been able to open the Black Gate at all. A Gate that the wildlings can't force their way through is all well and good until you reach a point when most of the Watchmen at the Nightfort can't even open it themselves. And I can't imagine that high-ranking, 7-worshipping members of the Watch would have liked being constantly reminded that the Old Gods have more power at the Wall than the 7.

I like this idea quite a bit. :thumbsup:

Also, I kind of wanted to bump this and see if anyone has any new insight in the last couple of months ...

[Know Face Man]

I see the point of trying to make LIGHTBRINGER something other then a sword.

I kinda believe that.

But think about it more. Its said the first Azor Ahai made Lightbringer to fight the darkness. After the fight was over do you think he just got rid of his sword. NO it would have been passed down just like all the other swords in the book are.

Now since LIGHTBRINGER has already been made why would the born again Azor Ahai have to make another one?

The answer to me is simple. LIGHTBRINGER has been here for thousands of years and it is still here. DAWN SOWRD OF HOUSE DAYNE.

The born again Azor Ahai wont make another sword he/she might as some people think do something similar like Dany making her Dragons

So both the sword and Dragons could be LIGHTBRINGER.

Say Danys is AA born again and LIGHTBRINGER is her Dragons.

Well the old LIGHTBRINGER is still here DAWN which will be used in the fight against the Others.

[redriver]

It's a nice theory and I think the recent conduct of the NW leads me to think they are falling from their purpose which may let the Others through.

I think Jon will become an Other AND wield Lightbringer.

But I have no proof beyond the Wall dream and the "song of ice and fire" vision and the Bran TEC dream and his direwolf being called Ghost.And that he is near death and the Wall.

[kissdbyfire]

I see the point of trying to make LIGHTBRINGER something other then a sword.

I kinda believe that.

But think about it more. Its said the first Azor Ahai made Lightbringer to fight the darkness. After the fight was over do you think he just got rid of his sword. NO it would have been passed down just like all the other swords in the book are.

If Lightbringer is the NW now it would also have been the NW back then, and it would never have been an actual sword...

[Know Face Man]

The NW was formed after the first fight against the Others.

LIGHTBRINGER is not the NW it is DAWN

I just don't get how hard that is to see.

LIGHTBRINGER was used against the Others in the first fight which i think was called the Long Night. The NW hadn't even been formed yet.

So there goes this idea of LIGHTBRINGER being the NW

[kissdbyfire]

The NW was formed after the first fight against the Others.

LIGHTBRINGER is not the NW it is DAWN

I just don't get how hard that is to see.

LIGHTBRINGER was used against the Others in the first fight which i think was called the Long Night. The NW hadn't even been formed yet.

So there goes this idea of LIGHTBRINGER being the NW

AGoT, chapter 21, Bran:

"When the singer reached the part in “The Night That Ended” where the Night’s Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The NW was formed after the first fight against the Others.

LIGHTBRINGER is not the NW it is DAWN

I just don't get how hard that is to see.

LIGHTBRINGER was used against the Others in the first fight which i think was called the Long Night. The NW hadn't even been formed yet.

So there goes this idea of LIGHTBRINGER being the NW

See what KissedbyFire said. Anecdotes in Game of Thrones pretty explicitly link the Night's Watch to the Battle for the Dawn. I guess ... keep trying?

This theory may or may not end up being true, but I have to say I put a pretty substantial amount of thought and research into it, other than settling on what seemed like the coolest sword in the series and deciding that it must be Lightbringer. :P

You can think that Dawn is Lightbringer all you want. But it's not a fact yet, and neither is my theory. I'll thank you not to act like I or anyone else is an idiot just because we're not convinced by the "Dawn is Lightbringer" theory. It's "not hard to see" at all, and that's the point — I don't think it'd be something so obvious.

[Know Face Man]

What i ment was the Others came for the first time, then the nights watch was formed.

The NW wasn't sitting there waiting for them. I guess ... keep trying.

See that's what i don't like about some people. You think just because you looked over the books a few times you think that only you can figure out what is going to happen.

Research you say, with all your research you have not one fact.

Kissed by fire only shows that the NW fought the Others at the end of the LongNight.

Who was fighting them first. The children and the First Men.

[Know Face Man]

My intention wasn't to say you didn't know what you were talking about more the opposite. I like most of your idea Apple, its just you tend to over reach when trying to put things together.

[kissdbyfire]

What i ment was the Others came for the first time, then the nights watch was formed.

And you know this for a fact. I see.

I think it is possible the Night's Watch was formed during the Battle for the Dawn.

The NW wasn't sitting there waiting for them. I guess ... keep trying.

Huh?

See that's what i don't like about some people. You think just because you looked over the books a few times you think that only you can figure out what is going to happen.

Yes, some people are really a pain in the rear end. If you read Apple Martini's post carefully you'll see she never once said her theory has been proven right (yet). Differently than you, who seem to believe your theory is not a theory but gospel.

Research you say, with all your research you have not one fact.

As opposed to all the facts you've collect with all your 'non-research'... Yeah, that makes an awful lot of sense.

:rofl:

[Know Face Man]

The Nights Watch was founded after the WALL was put up by Bran the Builder.

At least that's what Wiki says. Founded to maintain watch opn the WALL, so there is one fact saying it cant be LIGHTBRINGER.

It also says that the LongNight came before the NW was founded.