Could Lightbringer be the Night's Watch?

[SerNotAppearingInTheSeries]

This is the most interesting yet plausible theory I've read so far.

[Tormund Giantbabe]

I admit, it's an interesting theory but feel at the same time it's a "yes, but..."-theory nevertheless, in that it fits in some respects but doesn't fit very well in other respects.

Let's revisit what we know about Lightbringer - we have (a) the legend of how Lightbringer was forged by AA and (B) the prophecy of the return of AA and I don't think treating Lightbringer as a metaphor for the Night's Watch can be reconciled with those two texts.

The legend of how LB was forged by AA is clearly in the form of climactic sequence in which our hero works hard and fails, then works harder and fails again and succeeds only the third time after working a hundred days and nights and sacrificing what's dearest to him.

Now, I have read that the water could stand for the Wall, the lion's blood for the vow to forsake earthly possessions and Nissa Nissa for the vow to forgo love, and while it somehow fits, it isn't a particularly good fit.

The Wall is not the Night's Watch, the vows to forsake all possessions and love are nothing quite remarkable, rather a characteristic traits of most orders (see Kingsguard, Septons, Silent Sisters). Its also hard to see a climactic sequence in Wall, Possessions, Love nor should we overlook the fact that water, lion's blood and finally the blood and soul of Nissa Nissa are not additive in the legend - Lightbringer is tempered in the blood of Nissa Nissa only, after AA worked 100 days and nights.

What about the prophecy of AA's return? "In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

How exactly will AA "draw" the NW "from the fire" as a "burning sword"? And how are we to regard the NW as "the Red Sword of Heroes". Wouldn't the "Black Sword of Heroes" be more appropriate for the Night's Watch that "the Red Sword"?

I also don't think that in the context of all the terms dealing with fire, heat and light we can simply say that "Red Sword" is to mean "a weapon that has been used in battle" (with "red" in this case being a metaphor for blood), especially since red is written with a capital "R", indicating a quality that is special to Lightbringer. Like a burning sword radiating heat and light...

[Dragon of wynter]

Good theory, except for the fact tht the it's the RED sword of heroes pulled from the fire...

[Queen Beyond the Wall]

Love this theory.

The red sword of heroes COULD be the re-forged ICE (that GENDRY will re-forge), as we know that Ice is now 2 swords, Oathkeeper and Joffrey's, which have a red shine to them.

My theory...Gendry is gonna end up at the wall, and he will re-forge Ice from these swords (one of which he will get from Brienne, of course) for a resurrected or saved from the brink of death Jon (who will at that point be at least part way transformed into the hero he was destined to become). Gendry will forge them and Jon will pull Ice from the fire of the forge....and something(magical) will happen to show the Nights Watch who he is...they will stand once again as brothers, united with the wildlings, under the command of Jon with his red sword, and there you go...LIGHTBRINGER.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Good theory, except for the fact tht the it's the RED sword of heroes pulled from the fire...

OH MY GOD YOU'RE KIDDING, REALLY?!?! :rolleyes:

Just another instance of people taking this too literally. All "red" has to mean is that it's a weapon that's seen combat, i.e. been bloodied.

<snip>

Thank you for at least providing a well reasoned response, even if I disagree with it and still think you're taking the entire thing too literally.

[SerNotAppearingInTheSeries]

This theory deserves an appreciation post. I think it makes an awful lot of sense. I've always believed that the Night's Watch is one of the most important themes in the series. Also, I think a special weapon in the literal sense is too fairytale-ish. The Night's Watch being "the weapon" would fit just right to GRRM's world.

[Eyron]

Yes, we must not let this thread die and go into oblivion. Apple Martini has a real original theory here as far as I know, and it's very compelling.

*shameless bump*

[Melq]

Its a very interesting theory, I think the vow has some magic power and its instructive.

My questions is AA existed before the NW? the wall&NW was built after the first great war with "The Others" right? How could the Wall be built during the War if not after? I think The Wall was built so the next time the war starts the people is ready for the battle or even prevent it

Right now I remember two visions of a battle against "The Others" one at the Wall with Jon and the famous sword and the second of Dany on Drogon in the Trident, it could be both truth or not but they are similar when describing the Enemy, specially Dany's who barely know anything about the NW or The Others looks. I also remember someone ( I forgot) saying that a new Age of Heroes will begin again.

You know I believe the attack on Jon was necessary, he have to march south in order to save the wall, the north or the realm because nobody will go north to help. Also there are some things that doesn't make sense at all, like the Joramun Horn being at the north of the wall.. Why would Brandon the Builder and the COTF built a Wall that can simply be taken down with a blow of a horn that is on the enemy side.

IMO hope you are not right otherwise all the war against "The Others" is lost before the start and ASOIAF is going to have a dark and unhappy ending :) . The NW after Jon who probably wont be LC anymore is just a bunch of lowlifes and criminals and the noble or common volunteers are too old or dumb to face the enemy and Westeros couldn't be in worst condition to fight this war.

[DarkSnow]

I really like your ideas, Applemartini. When reading Ghost Rider's post, a small alteration came to my mind though: what if the NW is not LB, but AA (and the Wall then LB)? Then, its "rebirth" to former glory would still be ahead...at least maybe this could explain the huge difference between their current situation and the hypothetical glorious former state.

If this is your theory then Lb could be the wall?

[Yar]

Definitely an interesting an original theory. I have a few comments, though.

It is clear that the Night's Watch vow is full of the same language Melisandre uses. But it seems that this is because they come from the same origins, not because they are literally talking about one another. Night is dark and full of terrors, sword in the darkness, etc. I mean, Mel talks about everything in this way. Everything is a flame or a shadow, everything is about light and night, etc. I think that whoever came up with the vow was also someone who viewed the universe this way. If you go through all of Mel's lines and look at all the things she refers to as fires or flames or light in the dark, heck, anything could be Lightbringer under this theory. I've always noted a strong similarity between the vow and how Mel talks about things, but I always assumed that was a more general similarity of origin, not a literal relationship.

Plus we already have an actual flaming sword in Baeric's hands. And we have Dany's dragons, which were brought to life through a series of trials that very closely mirrored the legend of the original Lightbringer. Neither of these are necessarily the answer, either, but both seem more plausible.

[Santeno]

Hi, new to this forum and I appologize in advance if I'm repeating any prior ideas. As I see it George martin has been pretty straight forward in his revelations. he has only kept certain things close to his vest which leaves a few major plot points glaringly open. Lets not forget that we are dealing with a story that largely reads like historical finction, so I doubt that there is much allegory going on here and think the answer is much more direct.

As I see it We either know or think we know the following:

- AA reborn has to be a descendant of the mad king

- Danerys, Aegon VI and possibly John Snow are the only 3 descendants, so it has to be one of them.

- Since the Author is pretty Literall, I believe that Light bringer is a real sword. We also know that the sword will need to be wielded in the north, against the others.

- Danerys has no Sword.

- Aegon might or might not have Blackfyre (since that sword was last seen with the Golden company), but that is speculation.

- Jon Snow Does have Longclaw

- We know Longclaw is over 5,000 years old and has been in the north almost that entire time.

- We know that longclaw was "reborn" after being pulled from the fire by Joer mormont and given a new handle and pommel, as well as a new name (by Jon Snow).

- We know that Valyrian Steel can withstand tremendous heat and remain undamaged and that it is also spell forged.

Could it be that Longclaw and lightbringer are one and the same and that it's history has simply been forgotten since the sword is so old?

We know that lightbringer is supposed to be red, but we don't know how exactly. is it that it glows red (remember it is supposed to emanate heat right). Could it be that it does this when in the precence of the Others and we just haven't seen this happen since John snow has yet t fight an other?

We know that other prophecies indicate that Danerys will eventually head north and possibly team up with Bran (as he seems to end up flying a dragon). We also know that in the last few books the fight must be taken to the others in the north. We also know that danerys can't have more children, so it is unlikely that she will end up as queen of Westeros (though Aegon might end up as King). johSnow is too honorable to leave the night's watch so I doubt he will become king either.

As I see it this puts john snow, who is likely a descendant of the mad king, owning a "reborn" sword of very ancient heritage, fighting the others in the north together with at least danerys and Bran, who themselves would be riding dragons, whose fire is the only other ting that can kill wights and the others.

I propose that the prophecy is a reference to jon snow and that lightbringer and Lonclaw are one and the same.

Let me know what you think.

[GreyDeLeon]

Also many of the NW break some of the vows. So what would that mean about the Lightbringer?

If keeping the vows is part of the prophecy than Westeros is F%^$#D

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Well thanks to this thread I now have a crazy theory that Patchface is AAR. He was "reborn" in a shipwreck, salt and smoke, because his personality is completely different and he will take control of the Nights Watch , Lightbringer, by having it kill Shireen, Nissa Nissa.

ETA: or maybe the shipwrecking was just the being reborn in salt and because Mel doesn't like him (irony) she will burn him but he will simply be reborn again in the fire and smoke. Who said AAR couldn't be reborn twice?

[Targaryen_Rubies]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the gate is beneath the nightfort, the Night's King's old seat of power, then perhaps the magical properties of the oath have to do with the fact that the Night's King bound the watch to him with some sort of necromancy. Just a guess...

[Ragnorak]

I don't think that changes my question, though. What about reciting them changes you? In every other instance of magic, there seems to be a sense of exchange taking place, sealed by blood or some other material offering.

Why, if this is truly the key to fighting the others, haven't greenseers been shouting this message from the trees? Why hasn't Bloodraven been spending his time making sure that this message is transmitted (assuming his endgame has something to do with protecting the realm from the Others)?

I suspect what changes you is the sacrifice. We see a lot of human sacrifice in magic-- Red priests burning people, MMD with her "only death can pay for life," Bran's last vision of the weirwood. Human sacrifice has magical power. Taking a vow to give up the trappings of life to serve on the Wall until death is a form of human sacrifice. It might even be that all the human sacrifices of the NW are what fuel the magic in the Wall. If this sacrifice is what gives or maintains the Wall's power to magically hold back the Others than members of the NW are literally "the shield that guards th realms of men."

[Targaryen_Rubies]

I've been thinking about this theory for a while and my question is whether the three tries to forge the sword can be construed as aspects the blade must obtain and in the previous tries it failed, but in the final forge by true sacrifice it embodied all the aspects needed for lightbringer to be special?

So the first break would be with the Night's King: in which the Night's Watch failed to uphold the duty to repel the others or/ failed to be the sword/weapon against the others and allied with them instead.

Another could be the failed duty to warn the realm or guide them against the others which could symbolise the horn and the light.

The last could be the failure to be the shield for the realm by failing to defend the wall and pieces of it fall.

After all this has been done a sacrifice of some sort could revive the watch making it better and stronger in order to defeat the others and thus become lightbringer ?

Feel free to ignore the post of a newbie....

[Faint]

I think the biggest problem with this notion is that the Night's Watch is dwindling into nonexistence and it certainly isn't in control of anyone who could ever potentially qualify as Azor Ahai. The story didn't come to this point for Jon 'Snow' to resume his duties as Lord Commander after a temporary setback. The author simply does not write in such fashion; in his world, bad choices have permanent consequences. Not that I think Jon is gone forever. If anything, I'm quite sure his story has just begun -- his watch, conversely, is done. If he truly is Azor Ahai, then he'll have to find his Lightbringer somewhere else.

[gyrosc]

Looking at the whole lightbringer passage, I have noticed something interesting about it.

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

"

Doesn't it seem odd that a sword wielded by ONE hero would be called a sword of Heroes? I mean, no one but AA wielded the sword. Could it be that the'Heroes' are the men of the NW?

If LB was the NW, then AA commanded a group of heroes that formed his weapon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Looking at the whole lightbringer passage, I have noticed something interesting about it.

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

"

Doesn't it seem odd that a sword wielded by ONE hero would be called a sword of Heroes? I mean, no one but AA wielded the sword. Could it be that the'Heroes' are the men of the NW?

If LB was the NW, then AA commanded a group of heroes that formed his weapon.

That's actually a really good catch. Where "of" means "made up of," not "in the possession of."

[Gust07]

I must say that is a good theory, but I agreed that Azor Ahai was a lord commander of the Night’s Watch and brave knight and high born, and for some reason his name was forbidden, but his sword and his ability could not be forgotten.

So the old Azor Ahai can be:

“The Night's King is a legendary Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who lived during the Age of Heroes.”

lets use this:

“Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.”

and that whe Sam goes through the Nightfort, the oldest castle on the wall, he only says a partial version of the Night’s Watch vow. That is:

“I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men.”

So the:

“Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.”

Was add because of the things that our loved Night’s King, since he have take a other as wife, and have declared himself king and her his queen, and ruled the Nightfort as his own castle for thirteen years. During the dark years of his reign, horrific atrocities were committed, of which tales are still told in the North.

Well lets think about it. He was a lord commander, so he was chose to fight the darkness. We know that the Night’s Watch was formed by high Born, and it seems that they could marry or be married, and could leave his post on the Night’s Watch.

I must say that for me Lightbringer is a sword made of Valyrian steel(dragonsteel) that only go on flames in the hands of Azor Ahai. But why Valyrian steel, well if this metal is also called Dragonsteel, he is made from a living fire (living fire = Dragon).

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Well if Jon snow is son of a targar

Well if Jon snow is the son of Lyanna Stark and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, he fits all the prophecies to be the new Azor Ahai, and he would fit the collection’s name of “Sing of ice and fire” since he is half Stark(The winter/Snow) and half Targaryen(The dragon/Living fire)

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed”

Well this is pretty much what have happened

"… and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world…”

The others have return

"... In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword…”

Thinking how is the last chapter of Jon Snow, and he being Azor Ahai, and not be dead, he will draw longclaw on the fire of the combat.....

(For me on the end of his chapter the others have reach the wall)

“… And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Well, Azor Ahai is back!!!

Stannis was in the Slayer of Lies sequence of the Undying. The lie she must slay is probably that he is AA. Perhaps she is the one who must slay the lie because she is AA.

Dany didn't realize that it was wights that she was fighting. She thought that it was Usurpers but they were armored in Ice. I think it parallels very well with Jon's dream where he saw himself in black ice, (obsidian most likely) with a sword that burned red.

Well she is not a prince... she is a princess, don’t matter if she is a Targaryen, she is a female.

Dany see a lot of things on the Undying tower, things that happened and will happen not because of her….

She probably have seen someone fighting against the others only that!

Jon isn't dead for good but it's possible that he will dead for a while. Mel saw him living as Ghost then as a man. & Bran saw Jon lying in a cold bed dead/dying right before he looked into the heart of winter.

once more you are wrong Mel saw Jon Snow surrounded by skulls, his face changing between that of a man and that of a wolf.

That means he is near death, and not dead, and the skulls can be the wildlings, man’s of the watch and Stannis man’s, who will die on combat, or the others reaching the wall or both

That also match with the bran story, Jon lying in a cold bed(Snow) dying….

didnt azor ahai had to make some sacrifices... maybe that what happened with jon.

Well think my friend! And Jon already fits the sacrifices!!

I do think that the forge of the Lightbringer is more symbolic!

Let me see!

“To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over.”

Well Jon snow cry about the death of Ned Stark and almost run away from the wall to join his “brother” Rob. We can say that he have broke his vow, and the cry could be the water!

“The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered.”

Well, Jon Snow that bastard!!! He killed his superior Half-hand, one brave brother, well know to be the best warrior of the NW(almost a beast), and if ghost haven’t bite his leg and held him, Jon would not killed him!!

And again he have broke his vow sleeping with a woman Kissed by fire!

(Yea I know he have done this to the NW, but that way sound funny! XD)

“The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew beforehand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissan Nissan, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer”

And again Jon Snow have betrayed someone, to go back to the NW, and was the one to blame for the death of his beloved Ygritte!! And since that he have only think and done to the NW grow stronger, and when he was going to leave the NW…. he was stabbed!

The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. “Ygritte?” he whispered. “Forgive me. Please.” But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . . . "

*snip*

For me this Direwolf is Lyanna, How? A grey and ghatly, spotted with blood, and with shining sadly golden eyes…… that recalls how Ned Stark have found his sister, in a bed of blood.