Could Lightbringer be the Night's Watch?

[poky]

i think this thery makes a lot of sense, i think the nigth's watch is lightbringer and just like in the story Azor Ahai (Jon Snow) need to sacrifies Nisssa Nissa which is the Wall. When the wall comes down, we will see just what the men of the nigth's watch are all about will they scatter and run or stay and figth along Jon Snow and be true to their vows? will they become lightbringer?

also, like old nan said, so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night’s Watch are true. currently the men of the night's watch are not true so maybe now is time for the wall to come down. maybe jon is suppost to go to the crypts of winterfell maybe to find the horn of winter? so after jon is resurrected as Azor Ahai will go to winterfell and back to the wall, maybe he will go as ghost.

[gabrielle.]

This is a really lovely theory. It makes an awful lot of sense too. By the way, could Nissa Nissa have been used in the bloodmagic that went into the making of the Wall itself?

But isn't AA an Eastener? Was there any mention of them being present in Westeros? And wasn't AA a myth? And now I'm confusing myself....

[Techelles]

But isn't AA an Eastener? Was there any mention of them being present in Westeros? And wasn't AA a myth? And now I'm confusing myself....

I don't remember if he is ever specifically referred to as an Essosi, but AA is certainly the Essosi version of the myth, whereas in Westeros they call him the Last Hero. I always thought that this split in the mythos was comparable to the way Alexander the Great was remembered/apotheosized on the eastern fringes of his empire versus his more historical legacy back west. And figures of myth tend to take on the characteristics of the cultures and peoples who tell the stories.

[Ser Creighton]

Jon had a dream of himself holding a flaming sword. It's a sword, in the prophecy it reads as sword, it's written as a sword.

"A warrior shall draw from the burning fire a burning sword."

Now considering Azor is famed for battling the Others a flaming sword that gives off light would be really handy. Not to mention you would not be drawing men from the burning fire, you would be throwing the fire at the others.

Ignore the night watches words for a second, words are wind okay, just for a second. What qualities do the night watch have that reminds you of lightbringer? Do they actually bring light? Are they a beacon? Or are they men? I am not saying this to insult your theory, I think it's very clever, and very insightful, I love stuff like this.

Sometimes a sword is a person cutting their way through life.

Sometimes a sword is a mystical being.

Sometimes a sword is an army.

And sometimes a sword is just a sword.

"And that sword shall be lightbringer, the red sword of heores, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again."

Your really not going to clasp a military unit. Anyone can lead the night watch, and a good commander will lead them to victory. That does not make you Azor Ahai. Okay Dany could run around saying she is the mother of dragons all day, but unless she has the dragons no one will identify her that way. Same for Azor Ahai, it's the symbol of that character. There is a reason they put a crown on a kings head. Without it he is just like the rest of us. Even if he is a king if nobody knows it and you can't prove it, what's the point? Worked for Stannis, just imagine what the real deal could do. How is Martin going to not only show the readers but it has to come across in the book as well to the characters in the book.

Is Azor Ahai a man who leads the night watch? Or is he the warrior of light who kills others with a flaming sword?

[Greenfyre]

On 2/20/2013 at 0:36 AM, Ser Creighton said:

"And that sword shall be lightbringer, the red sword of heores, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again."

You're really not going to clasp a military unit.

Hard to argue with this point.

[northernshe-wolf]

I'm pretty late to catch on here, but wow, this is a brilliant theory- and totally plausible.

[Kasporio]

Well, nice new theories inducing more headaches. Jon seemingly died, so if "reborn" by Mel, he could draw a red flaming sword, as Dondarrion did after Thoros resurected him. But he would be merely a pawn of mel, and few won't like that. Red priests are creepy. IMO Jon is truly dedicated to his vows, and he was a very unlikely choice for a LC 'cause if he youth. He was elected thanks to Sam's plot, some could believe he was chosen.

About religions and origins, the NW have successfully blend it all, i guess, since in the past, the order survived the andal invasion and targaryen dinasty, even because andals and targaryens merely saw the watch as a fighting force against the free folk and a useful punishment. But i don't think there's "true" men of the night watch, first men opposed to others. Cotter Pyke, an ironborn, bastard, and illiterate former criminal, put his life in danger to save wildlings. Most black brothers (or a huge part) truly follow theyr vows, despite they're background. That why the neutral policy of the BW was created. Marsh is probably from the neck, so a bannerman of the starks in the first place, but he truly believed J.Snow behavior would contradict the neutrality of the watch, and decided to get rid of him. And so long the NW was dedicated to prevent a wildling invasion, they became single minded about it, but alot seemed to cope with the reality that the true ennemy isn't human.

Won't deny the faith of the seven is lame, against magic and fanatic, and R'hllor faith is worth, since red priests use sick magic and are prone to burn people for petty reasons.

[Grey Guardian]

Let's continue following this line of thinking that Lightbringer is not a sword at all for a moment. I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned this, but could we then possibly assume that Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, is Melisandre herself?

[western wolf]

Let's continue following this line of thinking that Lightbringer is not a sword at all for a moment. I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned this, but could we then possibly assume that Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, is Melisandre herself?

So then how would Stannis...or Jon...or Dany...wield her?

[Kasporio]

Well stannis bedded Mel many times, Jon is fond of red haired, and dany isn't against lesbian stuff so...

More seriously, she serves Stannis, or she seems. So he "wield" her.

Or the lightbringer could be be Sandor, as well as AAR. His face was burnt when kid, then he faced the wildfire on the blackwater, and was badly burnt when fighting Dondarrion. He killed many bastards including his bro bunch, and despise Gregor. they are almost anthithesis, Greg is a rapist and psychokiller, Sandor proved he was willing to protect the weak to some extent, because he was bullied by his brother.

If he didn't died and stayed as a monk, he is "reborn" if he forsake his old anger.

For the targaryen blood, well... He maybe a bastard of Aerys the mad, who fathered him when he was heading to casterly rock. That's why his brother put his face on fire, to see if he had enough dragon blood to be immune to fire. And that's why theirs fathers didn't punished Gregor for doing so.

[Quiet Isle]

Jon still has to go to Winterfell's crypts. Maybe Bran the Builder hid it down there somewhere since we don't know why he has to go down there. & I wonder if he will be exiled from the NW. How else would he be allowed to leave? The vows do say that they end when you die but I'm not sure if it will be that easy. Maybe the brothers won't want to have anything to do with him. They did try to kill him after all.

Or maybe Lightbringer already is around in plain sight it just needs to be activated.

I still think it is in Lyanna's statue, having been brought back by Ned along with Jon. something happened with that sword at TOJ. the sword in the stone. and I can see Jon finding out who his real mother is, going in that crypt, and wailing at it with his Mormont sword. when it cracks, there it is. now it could happen to be something different, sure, lots of theories, but I think this one makes sense. a lot of sense.

[Grey Guardian]

So then how would Stannis...or Jon...or Dany...wield her?

I don't know, Melisandre just seems to be wholeheartedly devoted to AAR, who she thinks is Stannis but I believe is not. 'Wielding' her would be like having her use her powers in their name. Perhaps Moqorro has something to do with Lightbringer. I just have this really strong feeling that there's some kind of connection between the red priests and AAR/Lightbringer.

[Techelles]

"And that sword shall be lightbringer, the red sword of heores, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again."

Your really not going to clasp a military unit. Anyone can lead the night watch, and a good commander will lead them to victory. That does not make you Azor Ahai.

As a warrior clasps a sword, so a commander leads a military unit. It's not what I'd call a forced or overly complicated metaphor. If the prophecy really is referring to the NW as LB and the LC as AAR (love these abbreviations), it's certainly not implied that every LC is AAR. AAR is simply the particular LC who does lead the fight against the Others when they return. So yeah, the metaphor remains plausible.

Is Azor Ahai a man who leads the night watch? Or is he the warrior of light who kills others with a flaming sword?

Who says these things are mutually exclusive?

[western wolf]

I don't know, Melisandre just seems to be wholeheartedly devoted to AAR, who she thinks is Stannis but I believe is not. 'Wielding' her would be like having her use her powers in their name. Perhaps Moqorro has something to do with Lightbringer. I just have this really strong feeling that there's some kind of connection between the red priests and AAR/Lightbringer.

I agree with that, they might even have been involved in its original creation. But if she's the metaphorical sword...well, perhaps Stannis has wielded her to create shadow babies

[Ser Creighton]

Hard to argue with this point.

I think, though, that when all is said and done... nobody is going to be Azor Ahai. I think we're going to see different aspects of that legend manifesting in different ways, and there will never come a time when GRRM points at a character and says to his readers: "Here! This person right here, this is Azor Ahai come again."

So this is one argument I doubt will ever be settled.

But do I expect to see Jon draw a burning sword at some point? Yes, I do. I also expect to see the NW fighting the Others in a reasonably cohesive manner. And I expect dragons to emit quite a remarkable, prophecy-fulfilling amount of light and heat along the way. (Hopefully Dany's hair will get burned off a few more times.)

You know early in the books I would have agreed that Azor Ahai was not coming again, but then a funny thing happened, a lot of prophecies started coming true. But I don't think Azor is what people think he is, I think he was a person, but not some god. I think Azor Ahai comes again is like saying a leader will rise. Azor is not listed as having any special powers, he may have been a smith, clearly he could forge a sword and he may have developed a new type of steel. Dragon steel, Valyrian steel which may have been called Dragon steel in the beginning because Valyria did not exist yet. Sounds like he did a blood sacrifice to put a spell on the sword that made fire and light. Light probably being very important since they hate light, much like Vampires. Wait sorry real Vampires not those glittering wood fairies from twilight. So basically I think he Azor is the leader that comes. I mean if Jon gets up and starts shooting lighting from his eyes and fireballs from his ass and speaking in tongues I may be done with the series.

Who am I kidding that would be epic. Like Flash Gordon Movie epic, so bad it's good. Then the night watch could start singing Queen,

He's for everyone of us

Stands for everyone of us

He saves with a mighty hand

Every man, every woman,

Every child-he's a might Flash!

Snow! Ah-ahh!

He's a miracle!

So freakin Epic.

[Ser Creighton]

As a warrior clasps a sword, so a commander leads a military unit. It's not what I'd call a forced or overly complicated metaphor. If the prophecy really is referring to the NW as LB and the LC as AAR (love these abbreviations), it's certainly not implied that every LC is AAR. AAR is simply the particular LC who does lead the fight against the Others when they return. So yeah, the metaphor remains plausible.

Who says these things are mutually exclusive?

It came off wrong yeah he can do both, but how someone gets flaming sword and night watch as a metaphor is beyond me. To make light bringer he sucked the soul out of his wife is going to suck the soul out of his wife to make the nights watch. To say a unit is a sword is one thing. To say a unit is a red color sword pulled from the fire, that was made by stabbing your wife and taking her soul into it. Is whole other metaphor.

But hey if you want it the black brothers to be a red flaming sword it's all you. Enjoy the idea of it, have fun with it. I can't say it's wrong, I have no proof, I can just say that for me the metaphor is stretched. Take out sword and he says bare your chest so I shove my unit into your ####, you see how the metaphor can come off bad. Or military unit, or brothers, or bare your chest so I may drive the night watch through your chest and absorb your soul. None of it really comes off very good. But again you like it, you enjoy, when the next book comes out we may actually find out what the deal is, maybe... probably... probably not. But at least I will find out who is sleeping with who and something useless like Dragon Bone has lots of iron in it, which is in the books for no apparent reason. I will also no what everyone is eating in detail, always a lot of meals and drinking.

[Techelles]

It came off wrong yeah he can do both, but how someone gets flaming sword and night watch as a metaphor is beyond me. To make light bringer he sucked the soul out of his wife is going to suck the soul out of his wife to make the nights watch. To say a unit is a sword is one thing. To say a unit is a red color sword pulled from the fire, that was made by stabbing your wife and taking her soul into it. Is whole other metaphor.

But hey if you want it the black brothers to be a red flaming sword it's all you. Enjoy the idea of it, have fun with it. I can't say it's wrong, I have no proof, I can just say that for me the metaphor is stretched. Take out sword and he says bare your chest so I shove my unit into your ####, you see how the metaphor can come off bad. Or military unit, or brothers, or bare your chest so I may drive the night watch through your chest and absorb your soul. None of it really comes off very good. But again you like it, you enjoy, when the next book comes out we may actually find out what the deal is, maybe... probably... probably not. But at least I will find out who is sleeping with who and something useless like Dragon Bone has lots of iron in it, which is in the books for no apparent reason. I will also no what everyone is eating in detail, always a lot of meals and drinking.

I wouldn't say I'm a committed believer in this theory, but it is well-conceived and intriguing. So I'm just saying that your criticisms aren't exactly damning -- that is, you aren't poking any holes. I'm not sure why you think that a sword can be a metaphor but a flaming sword can't. Isn't the sword called Lightbringer? And the NW oath just happens to say this: "I am the sword in the darkness . . . the light that brings the dawn." As for Nissa Nissa, the figure is clearly symbolic of the price of heroism, of the things a man must give up in order to do what he considers his duty. I don't know how that bit would play out if this theory is true, but there are many possibilities. For my part, I've never expected NN to be literal. I've never expected to actually see AAR drive a sword through a woman's heart.

Bottom line: if one aspect of the prophecy is metaphorical, the rest probably are, too.

You know early in the books I would have agreed that Azor Ahai was not coming again, but then a funny thing happened, a lot of prophecies started coming true. But I don't think Azor is what people think he is, I think he was a person, but not some god. I think Azor Ahai comes again is like saying a leader will rise.

This I agree with. I've said as much myself many times.

[The Chosen One]

I think there are a few things we can tell from Sam's description of the sources, and his general overview of the available information:

• Sam mentions annals of the Night's Watch, and the fact that he's troubled by the large amount of missing information and the fact that the oldest records hint that the count of Lord Commanders is off by quite a bit.
  
• Sam makes reference to histories written by septons and to claims by archmaesters that all the extant historical texts are unreliable.
  
• Sam references "tales" that include snippets of a wide variety of information about "Other-lore" that seem to come from less rigorous sources that are neither scholarly histories nor annals of the Watch, suggesting these are pieces intended for a lay audience.
  

Obviously, given the fact that Sam found these sources in the archives of Castle Black, we know there are copies there, but that doesn't mean that these sources were created at Castle Black or for the sole use of the Watch. Rather, most of the sources outside the annals suggest that Castle Black kept a library of books in wider circulation, either for reference or entertainment purposes.

Can we really take what Septons and Archmaesters say or do as Truth? (Not going against what you said, just adding to it)

The way I see it, in this "world" the maesters are building (fair enough we don't know since when) there is no place for magic.

What if all the writings about how the Night's Watch used to be a Magical Order were discredit and\or erased like the great inquisition did.

The Holy Church changed a lot of "history" to their profit and after the Night's King we DO know a lot was erased and banned.

We are even hinted the Night's King was called Bran Stark by Old Nan ( A Storm of Swords, Chapter 56 says wiki)

Eventho I would love that the Night's King was AA I don't think it's possible but all we know about him maybe false. Maybe they changed the books to make him the 13th Lord Commander... What if, IF, Azor Ahai means "Night's King", and the "Night's Watch" was his guard, and all the "For the Night is Dark and Full of Terrors" a reminder of what he did...

Crackpot i know i know.. But back on track...

What if the pact that the CoTF and the FM made, and with the FM converting to the Old Gods, was some kind of ritual or held some kind of "magic" that would give humans the powers that until now only the CoTF had. That would explain why the FM can warg and the Crannogmen being the ones who lived longer near the CoTF got even more powerful, while the others were becoming more "human" with time. Also the power that the Starks hold seems more to me than just heritage. It's obvious that magic runs in that family blood and they are the only ones with those cripts...

Also, isnt the North the only Kingdom to never change their "Kings"? I don't remember, I think at least all the others had some change... Was it not? The Westerlands from Casterly to Lannister, the Reach from Gardener to Tyrell, the ironislands from Harren the Black to Greyjoy, I remember something about the First Baratheon King to have married some woman who was already from the Storm Lands and he kept their sigil and words... I just don't know about the Tully's, the Arryn's, and the Martells.

Anyway, I'm rambling now.

[The guy from the Vale]

Also, isnt the North the only Kingdom to never change their "Kings"? I don't remember, I think at least all the others had some change... Was it not? The Westerlands from Casterly to Lannister, the Reach from Gardener to Tyrell, the ironislands from Harren the Black to Greyjoy, I remember something about the First Baratheon King to have married some woman who was already from the Storm Lands and he kept their sigil and words... I just don't know about the Tully's, the Arryn's, and the Martells.

Interesting take, and true to some extent. The Tullys were bannermen to the Harrens before the Ironborn realm was split up into the Riverlands and the Iron Islands. The Arryns succeeded the Gryphon kings - although in some way, they have been the second most stable dynasty after the Starks, silly as that might sound by the time of AFFC. The Martells were one of several feuding petty kingdoms of Dorne until Nymeria arrived and subjugated them all and married a Martell... so there was no Kingdom of Dorne until the Martells became kings, but that happened relatively recently.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Interesting take, and true to some extent. The Tullys were bannermen to the Harrens before the Ironborn realm was split up into the Riverlands and the Iron Islands. The Arryns succeeded the Gryphon kings - although in some way, they have been the second most stable dynasty after the Starks, silly as that might sound by the time of AFFC. The Martells were one of several feuding petty kingdoms of Dorne until Nymeria arrived and subjugated them all and married a Martell... so there was no Kingdom of Dorne until the Martells became kings, but that happened relatively recently.

I also thought it was interesting that there are no Stark, Martell or Arryn swords in the Iron Throne (might not be any Tully swords either, since they never technically fought Aegon). I think it might be foreshadowing that those regions won't be part of the nation-state at the end.