Could Lightbringer be the Night's Watch?

[The guy from the Vale]

That would also mean, of course, that those kingdoms that joined the Seven Kingdoms willingly (if reluctantly or later than the others) would ultimately split off, while those that were brutally subjugated by the Targaryens would stay inside that institution. While it makes some sense on one level, it would also be pretty ironic.

Not that I particularly cherish the thought of a fractured Westeros. But it might well be where things will be headed at the end, and I wouldn't blame the parties involved. Basically, a united realm increases both the benefits and the drawbacks of each individual ruler: a good ruler can do more good in a united realm, while a bad ruler can do more harm... and I still hope for a good ruler in the end.

[Quiet Isle]

great thread. don't like flashing avatars. takes me out of it.

[western wolf]

That would also mean, of course, that those kingdoms that joined the Seven Kingdoms willingly (if reluctantly or later than the others) would ultimately split off, while those that were brutally subjugated by the Targaryens would stay inside that institution. While it makes some sense on one level, it would also be pretty ironic.

Not that I particularly cherish the thought of a fractured Westeros. But it might well be where things will be headed at the end, and I wouldn't blame the parties involved. Basically, a united realm increases both the benefits and the drawbacks of each individual ruler: a good ruler can do more good in a united realm, while a bad ruler can do more harm... and I still hope for a good ruler in the end.

Yes it would be ironic, because there are no more dragons. The only reason Aegon got the North was because the Stark king heard what he'd done in the Riverlands, and decided to surrender peacefully. At the Neck, Moat Cailin had protected the north from the rest of the conteinent for centuries. The north could have seceded at least half a century ago with a rather high probability of staying independent.

[armidil0]

I like this theory, but I also have a pet theory that LB is the different personalities that Jon has had.

[Tall-Talker]

This thread was too long and I'm lazy to check for it, so I'll just ask.

Let's assume the Night's Watch is Lightbringer and the Lord Commander is AA.

If Jon's attack was fatal yet he still came back to life somehow does that release him from his vows and ultimately from being AA?

[Lord Flashheart]

Word.

[MasterJack]

This thread was too long and I'm lazy to check for it, so I'll just ask.

Let's assume the Night's Watch is Lightbringer and the Lord Commander is AA.

If Jon's attack was fatal yet he still came back to life somehow does that release him from his vows and ultimately from being AA?

I think Jon's body will die, but he will warg his wolf. Then they will burn his body with others brothers that died with the confusion, then freed from the Ice (jon warg consciousness) his true Targ ability will wake up and the fire will not burn but revive his decreased body, when Jon retake his body, he will wake with skulls and bones and LongClaw now raging with heat and renamed LightBringer.

Sorry since im French my english might not be really good.

[mattah84]

Yes, this is from ASOS.

Here's what I'd like to know: why doesn't the Night's Watch vow say "I am the watcher on the Wall"? Why does the vow say "I am the watcher on the wall(s)"?

I've always thought that Essos was connected to Westeros through the Land of Always Winter. Maybe there is another wall where Essos meets the Land of Always Winter, like there is a wall where Westeros meets the Land of Always Winter.

That is an interesting Theory about The Nights Watch being Lightbringer. When you take a step back and read their vow, maybe Jon's dream with the Red Sword really does hold alot of meaning when it comes to the Azor Azai prophecy. I've always felt that Danaerys or her Dragons were Azor Azai because Drogo and Rhaego died (Salt came from Dany's Tears) and the Dragon Eggs Hatched during Drogo's Pyre (Pulling the Flaming Sword forth from the fire). I also felt like MMD was trying to kill her child and prevent him from being born, but that it was fate Azor Azai be reborn, because MMD was burned alive and couldn't do anything to prevent the Dragon Eggs from being hatched.

However, props to you Apple Martini as there is not alot to discount this theory. Another thing I was thinking, is bringing the Wildlings underneath the wall, could have been one of jon's attempts to forge the Nights Watch into what it needed to be.

However, the forging of the sword, could also be Danaerys gathering her host to head to Westeros. First she gets a Khal, then Khal Drogo dies and they leave her. Next she goes to Mereen, but she ends up hopping on Drogon and having to leave after he goes crazy and spits fire at people, and Mereen is put to seige.

When she is in the Dothraki Sea with Drogon, GRRM gives us a little tidbit that Dany has her Moon Blood, maybe indicating that her Womb is able quicken again. She could either gain Khal Jhoqo's Kahl by having Drogon kill him and making them all kneel, or she could decide to wed Khal Jhoqo. I think she will most likely kill him, as he was one of the Khals that was challenging her decisions back when Khal Drogo was alive.

I have trouble thinking that Dany isn't Azor Azai, but maybe both her and Jon are linked in the prophecy somehow. Awesome interpretation.

[The Mother of The Others]

the fire will not burn but revive his deceased body; he will wake with skulls and bones and LongClaw now raging with heat and renamed LightBringer.

Sorry since im French

Wee Wee! (oui oui ! ) D'accord! Your words paint a very sensual picture. Let us pray it happens just as you say. And thank you for all of the Gillette shaving products which come from your country to mine, across the ocean. Without them I would be a bear like Mormont.

[FittleLinger]

Wee Wee! (oui oui ! ) D'accord! Your words paint a very sensual picture. Let us pray it happens just as you say. And thank you for all of the Gillette shaving products which come from your country to mine, across the ocean. Without them I would be a bear like Mormont.

The best a man can get, right... Cutting my face with an overpriced blade is really a dream come true :lmao:

In all serousness, I like this theory more than other popular ones. Not only because Apple has laid it out well, but because to me, Dragons seem obvious, and Dawn just doesn't feel right as it's too literal.

[Gendels Children]

I truly do like the theory that the nights watch is lightbringer I had though it my self when disusing it with a friend quite some time ago, but I hadn't put the two and two together about the wives thing... very interesting I must say I love picking peoples brains about this kinda stuff and these forums and like edible GOLD to me :drool: I also REALLY like this idea too vv

I think Jon's body will die, but he will warg his wolf. Then they will burn his body with others brothers that died with the confusion, then freed from the Ice (jon warg consciousness) his true Targ ability will wake up and the fire will not burn but revive his decreased body, when Jon retake his body, he will wake with skulls and bones and LongClaw now raging with heat and renamed LightBringer.

I had toyed with different ideas on how Jon would come back to life (because he MUST) but this one is new to me, maybe now my top choice unless I should find something more suited down the line.

[yolkboy]

This is definitely something I've been speculating about elsewhere on this board. The people of Lhazar are called "lamb" men. "Lhazar" and "Azor" sound like they could easily have come from the same root. And it makes sense if the words for "lamb" and "wolf" would be related.

I had looked at Azar = Azor = Lamb too, independently. It's been on my mind for a while.

Lh - azar - een could mean the - lamb - men

I came to the conclusion that if AZOR means lamb, Azor Ahai surely means Sacrificial Lamb. I can't think of any other word that would fit well with lamb. Given the 'Legend of Lightbringer' story, it certainly fits well.

Apple's suggestion that it could be lamb/wolf is plausible too. In fact i love it.

This must be from the extinct Ghiscari language, if we're getting close.

This thread is excellent BTW.

[Dr. Pepper]

It's been ages since I've read this thread in it's entirety and I no longer recall exactly what's included, but I wanted to add something in case it hadn't already been discussed.

This is a conversation Jon has with several atop the wall in ADWD. They are talking about about the dangers of Mance's broken host.

"It is the remnants of that host that waits beyond the Wall.”

“Broken remnants.”

“A broken sword can be reforged. A broken sword can kill.”

It's an instance where an army or a group of people are likened to a sword.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's been ages since I've read this thread in it's entirety and I no longer recall exactly what's included, but I wanted to add something in case it hadn't already been discussed.

This is a conversation Jon has with several atop the wall in ADWD. They are talking about about the dangers of Mance's broken host.

"It is the remnants of that host that waits beyond the Wall.”

“Broken remnants.”

“A broken sword can be reforged. A broken sword can kill.”

It's an instance where an army or a group of people are likened to a sword.

I saw that too. I think it's especially pertinent if you consider how many people write off the NW as Lightbringer because it's in bad shape.

[yolkboy]

I didn't believe he theory of NW = Lightbringer because it had two flaws in my mind. First, that the NW were apparently formed after the battle against the Others. Second, that the metaphor seemed too 'clunky' to me. I have come up with an idea that solves both of those problems.

Perhaps the NW simply re-named and reformed after the Battle for the Dawn, but they were around before then.

Imagine during the Long Night, the Others are attacking, it's freezing and there is perpetual darkness. A group of First Men, headed by Azor Ahai (or whatever) group together to stand up against the Others. Their collective goal is to end the darkness, both literally and figuratively. So they call themselves 'the Lightbringers'. They don't call themselves the Night's Watch because they are not watching/waiting for the night - it has already arrived. They are proactively trying to bring the 'light' back.

The Lightbringers fight the Others, and the their Lord Commander, ('Azor Ahai'), finally defeats them. After the battle is won and the Long Night is over, the Wall is built and the Lightbringers decide to man and protect it. Now their purpose has changed, so they re-group as a band of men who are now guarding/waiting/watching at the Wall for the darkness to return. The 'Lightbringers' name is discarded as it is now obsolete. They rename themselves 'the Night's Watch'.

Azor Ahai must have had a group/brotherhood helping him. And that group must have had a name. I can think of no name that fits so well (on several levels), than 'the Lightbringers'. What else would they call themselves?

I also think, in this scenario, that The Lord Commander of 'the Lightbringers' could have had a special dragonsteel sword he called Lightbringer, which was Dawn. So Lightbringer is possibly BOTH a sword and an incarnation of the Night's Watch here.

I have more to add, but i'll stop there. I hope the crackpot is at least original. It makes some sense to me.

[J. Stargaryen]

It's been ages since I've read this thread in it's entirety and I no longer recall exactly what's included, but I wanted to add something in case it hadn't already been discussed.

This is a conversation Jon has with several atop the wall in ADWD. They are talking about about the dangers of Mance's broken host.

"It is the remnants of that host that waits beyond the Wall.”

“Broken remnants.”

“A broken sword can be reforged. A broken sword can kill.”

It's an instance where an army or a group of people are likened to a sword.

I saw that too. I think it's especially pertinent if you consider how many people write off the NW as Lightbringer because it's in bad shape.

Old Nan tells Bran that the Last Hero's blade snapped (i.e., broke) when he tried to use it. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Last_hero

Old Nan was unable to finish the entire tale. However, what she did say was: “ Oh my sweet summer child … What do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundered feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north, when the sun hides it face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.

The Others … Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.

In that darkness, the Others came for the first time … They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding pale dead horses, and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes, found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through the frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.

Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken those lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods, the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog and a dozen companions. For years he searches until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds –^[1] ”

[KingOfQuarth]

My thoughts

)-What-if-light-bringer-isn't-forged-yet?

[Dr. Pepper]

<snip>

As part of the "Lightbringer is the Night's Watch" theory, I think this makes a lot of sense.

Old Nan tells Bran that the Last Hero's blade snapped (i.e., broke) when he tried to use it. http://awoiaf.wester...x.php/Last_hero

Old Nan was unable to finish the entire tale. However, what she did say was: “ Oh my sweet summer child … What do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundered feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north, when the sun hides it face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.

The Others … Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.

In that darkness, the Others came for the first time … They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding pale dead horses, and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes, found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through the frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.

Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken those lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods, the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog and a dozen companions. For years he searches until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds –^[1] ”

It's interesting if we look at that story in the same way we look at the KoTLT story - where the animals and such represent the sigils of certain people. So the Last Hero was X, his companions where perhaps, a Ryswell, a Dustin, a Stark, and some other companions. In other words, a group of people (which yolkboy terms "Lightbringers").

[yolkboy]

As part of the "Lightbringer is the Night's Watch" theory, I think this makes a lot of sense.

Ah thankyou, it really makes sense to me too, in the context.

I hereby coin the theory

'Night's Watch', the group formerly known as 'the Lightbringers'.

[Elias]

Aemon quote, when Stannis and Melisandre show him the sword, after he leave the room, he asks Sam:

"Does it have some heat? I couldn't sense any heat at all" and Sam answer: "It's looks like fire burning, but there's no heat on it." (My quotes are not exact from the book)

So, Aemon believe that the sword is really supposed to exist in fact, and that the sword with Stannis is just a silly trick, :)

(sorry for any grammar error, 1st post here)