Could Lightbringer be the Night's Watch?

[Justin Pham]

In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavily on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again.

The long summer is officially over, the red comet is the bleeding star, Longclaw is Lightbringer, the sword pulled from the fire by the Old Bear after the climactic reveal of the return of wights and the Others (the dread hour), saying something like, "the guard and grip have been burned away but it would take a fire a thousand times hotter to harm the blade" possibly alluding to it's origins), and the one who wields it, Jon Snow, is Azor Ahai. Speculation, but I really hope it's true. The bastard knows nothing, but he's still my favorite character.

[Stannis Lives]

The long summer is officially over, the red comet is the bleeding star, Longclaw is Lightbringer, the sword pulled from the fire by the Old Bear after the climactic reveal of the return of wights and the Others (the dread hour), saying something like, "the guard and grip have been burned away but it would take a fire a thousand times hotter to harm the blade" possibly alluding to it's origins), and the one who wields it, Jon Snow, is Azor Ahai. Speculation, but I really hope it's true. The bastard knows nothing, but he's still my favorite character.

I agree. If GRRM kills off Jon Snow, there will be rioting in the streets.

[Man of Many Faces]

Wow, this is an awesome theory. I've never thought of the vows in that way before. I am not sure if it's true or accurate but it is intriguing.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Has anyone thought that maybe AAR will never appear in this book, but maybe in like a billion years later in westeros time, and we are just being deceived by GRRM, sounds like something Martin will do, I'll stick to this theory.

[Targed&Feathered]

Wow, read every word of this thread, it's a knockout notion & I find both sides plausible.. I wish every theory or proposition were as well-developed & as intelligently argued. Great, great job, all.

[Victarion Pyke]

I agree that the NW could be Lightbringer. Jon is going to be saved by Melisandre, the same way Beric was saved by Thoros. To quote the ironborn "what is dead may never die, but rises harder and stronger".

Now as for the forging of the Lightbringer/NW, Jon basically signed a death warrant for Ygritte when he went back to the NW after climbing the wall. He definitely seemed to love her, and by sacrificing her, I think he fulfilled the prophecy. That and his dream make me think that he is in fact AA.

[AC Angel]

I actually believe that Lightbringer is the NW, and I think it would have a great affect on the plot if it were.

[~No One~]

Read the whole thread, some compelling arguments, guys!

I have always thought the words of the NW oath were more of a consequence to the original AA as opposed to a clue indicating that it *is* the Lightbringer, but I'm not sure.

A poster on page one mentioned that blood magic used to make the Wall (by Bran the builder, right? A Stark?) might include Nissa Nissa's blood. Maybe the NW also has some sort of magic infused in it then, whereby they could become Lightbringer when the need arose.

Maybe this also has something to do with the fact that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell...if there's magic in the Wall, built by a Stark, maybe it's tied by Stark blood. Sorry...off track...

I still believe they would need to be tempered 3 times. Dany bringing the dragons forth from fire just as the comet appears in the sky is spot on for AAR, but maybe the NW is Lightbringer, she'll add her dragons to them to temper them the last time. Either she'll kill Jon or vise versa?

[Tenzinkendrick]

The word 'weapon' is often incorrectly translated to 'sword' from certain languages in the real world. Why not here? What language was the original text written in? Valyrian? Ghiscari? Dothraki? As long as it had to go through translation, it twists its meaning.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the Sword in the Darkness (a weapon). I am the watcher on the walls (a sentry). I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn (warfare using flames. This could also be a metaphor for being a servant of R'hillor). The horn that wakes the sleepers (a war horn, used in medieval combat to rally troops and send orders across a battlefield, the shield that guards the realms of men (weapons can be used in defense. A shield is a weapon) I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

To me, it is obvious. This means that Lightbringer meant 'weapon'. The Night's Watch is a weapon - a shield against winter, and a sword to strike back. Jon is AAR.

[Consigliere]

Great theory! :thumbsup:

I much prefer the NW being Lightbringer than an actual sword thats been lost/hidden for thousands of years and the NW vow certainly gives credence to this theory. And as Apple Martini has pointed out, its quite rare for a vision/prophecy to play out literally.

[Stannis Lives]

Great theory! :thumbsup:

I much prefer the NW being Lightbringer than an actual sword thats been lost/hidden for thousands of years and the NW vow certainly gives credence to this theory. And as Apple Martini has pointed out, its quite rare for a vision/prophecy to play out literally.

I've said before but I don't understand why there isn't more of an interest in who was the first Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. It is never brought up in the series however that is a monumental figure. It had to be AA in order for the Watch to be Lightbringer, no? If the NW is the defender of the realm against the Others, then the founder of the order and Lord Commander would be heros. Yet the Watch no longer remembers.

[Ser Knute]

Homage to Apple Martini. I like the theory, but I'm not sure I'm sold on it as being pure symbology. The reason I say that is because of the description of how Lightbringer was forged. That doesn't seem to me to be symbolic, but literal. That makes it hard for me to buy fully into the theory.

A couple of things that I'm curious about is: who's magic is the Wall imbued from? Is it the CoTF, the First Men, or some other?

Next, Dawn's history. From the Wiki: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dawn. Ok, now the Wiki description: 'It is said to be made from metal forged from the heart of a fallen star.' This is very cryptic and doesn't seem literal at all. Beyond that we have way too little actual information on it. I guess it'd be safe to say that Dawn could be Lightbringer, but it could just as well be its own sword entirely.

I'm trying my best to recall specific passages but I loaned my set of books to my friend so I don't have access to quote directly.

Next, is the Horn of Winter or Joramun, whichever you prefer. The Wiki describes this as being a Horn possessed by the Horned King, one of the Kings Beyond the Wall of old. It goes on to state that when the Horn was blown it awoke Giants from the Earth. As well it's believed that blowing the Horn could bring down the Wall.

Now the Giants speak the Old Tongue of the First Men. What we don't know is do they predate the CoTF or did they coexist before the FM arrived? From my recollection the First Men impeded on the lands of Westeros which were occupied by the CoTF and led to the warring and the eventual Pact. Following the Pact between the FM and the CoTF came the threat of the Others. They joined forces to fight the Others but were being driven back (southward) until the 'discovery' that Dragonglass was mighty potent against them and then the Wiki states: "A great hero, who in the eastern tradition is known as Azor Ahai, led the war against the Others wielding his sword of fire,Lightbringer, driving the Others back. In the Westerosi tradition, he may be known as the last hero." Then of course that led to the building of the Wall by presumably Bran the Builder.

So, it would seem that the Magic imbued on the Wall is that of the Old Gods and the CoTF. What doesn't make sense is the Horn of Joramun. Why would the CoTF construct a horn that could/would defeat their own magic to bring down the Wall? Or, is it supposed to be that a bitter Wildling who found himself on the wrong side of it constructed it so that they could make their way south either if need be when the Others came again, or just out of spite? This is one point that does not make sense to me, but that's ok I think that's intended to this point by GRRM.

Now as for Lightbringer itself. In the Wiki we have it's definition or description of what it is and how it was made. Then there's a "theory" link which references it being possibly metaphorical, or literal, and there's also a theory of it being related to Dawn along with your theory and even tied to the Dragons or a Dragon Horn.

So, to me, while I like your theory and I leave open the possibility that it could be true, I'm hesitant because we have the gap in history as to what happened to Lightbringer, if we can believe it was a literal sword. I find it highly dubious that if Lightbringer is literally a sword that it's purpose and possession wouldn't be closely regarded and guarded. What happened to it? In your theory it's metaphorical so that would explain it's absence. If it's literal, where the hell is it?

Then you have the mystery surrounding Dawn itself after Eddard returned it to Ashara and even the 'mystery' of Ashara herself. You also have the Title given to the bearer of Dawn, Sword of the Morning. What we don't know and is missing from the histories is what Dawn's purpose was if any beyond just being a "greatsword" as well as why there is no current Dayne wielding it so far as we know.

Now in favor of your theory is that the NW after the period of the Long Night was considered to be an honorable venture. A Stark has been part of the NW for many centuries and if I recall correctly there were other nobles that took the black. Earlier in the thread there was discussion about the Oath of the NW and how it could have morphed over time, which is entirely possible. Another thing that could loosely apply to your metaphorical theory is that when the CoTF taught the FM about ravenry it's said that the ravens actually spoke the words of the message. So what we're seeing is that over a long period of time complacency has come in and history forgotten or ignored until they become the 'old wives tales' of Nan and likely many others. As we see currently most not closely associated with the NW or even some within who aren't rangers don't necessarily buy the Others' existence at all, snarks and grumpkins... so that does favor your theory, the NW itself is not embracing necessarily embracing the Vow as it used to, it's eroding into selfish aims along with all of its other problems; men, supplies, support for the rest of Westeros.

What we don't know and could unhinge your theory is what brought about the coming of the Others in the first place? AA from the Wiki was "chosen" to fight the Others. Who chose and why him specifically? In your theory the premise that it's metaphorical relies on the NW; where as the Legend according to the Wiki: "here will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

This seems to not have any bearing on the state of the NW at all but only the heralding of the Others return. The other thing that bothers me is the part referring to the warrior drawing from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer. How do we explain that metaphorically? And if it's metaphorical, how do we reconcile the forging of Lightbringer being metaphorical as well with respect to the first two attempts before Nissa Nissa is involved?

[The Dragon has three heads]

I've said before but I don't understand why there isn't more of an interest in who was the first Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. It is never brought up in the series however that is a monumental figure. It had to be AA in order for the Watch to be Lightbringer, no? If the NW is the defender of the realm against the Others, then the founder of the order and Lord Commander would be heros. Yet the Watch no longer remembers.

It was probably a friend or brother to AA/last hero.

I would guess they maybe wear black in remembrance of their first leader who would have sacrificed himself to stop the others.

At this time you have bran the builder, possibly the first lord stark, and likely first lord of winterfell.

Who would have had to deal with AA in the war for the dawn but it's never mentioned they fought together, were friends, allies etc just that he built x and y after/during the the war.

And Ser Knute, all very good points.

The HEART of a falling star, and where was Nissa nissa pierced to finally make the sword tempered?

[King of Winters]

Homage to Apple Martini. I like the theory, but I'm not sure I'm sold on it as being pure symbology. The reason I say that is because of the description of how Lightbringer was forged. That doesn't seem to me to be symbolic, but literal. That makes it hard for me to buy fully into the theory.

A couple of things that I'm curious about is: who's magic is the Wall imbued from? Is it the CoTF, the First Men, or some other?

Next, Dawn's history. From the Wiki: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dawn. Ok, now the Wiki description: 'It is said to be made from metal forged from the heart of a fallen star.' This is very cryptic and doesn't seem literal at all. Beyond that we have way too little actual information on it. I guess it'd be safe to say that Dawn could be Lightbringer, but it could just as well be its own sword entirely.

I'm trying my best to recall specific passages but I loaned my set of books to my friend so I don't have access to quote directly.

Next, is the Horn of Winter or Joramun, whichever you prefer. The Wiki describes this as being a Horn possessed by the Horned King, one of the Kings Beyond the Wall of old. It goes on to state that when the Horn was blown it awoke Giants from the Earth. As well it's believed that blowing the Horn could bring down the Wall.

Now the Giants speak the Old Tongue of the First Men. What we don't know is do they predate the CoTF or did they coexist before the FM arrived? From my recollection the First Men impeded on the lands of Westeros which were occupied by the CoTF and led to the warring and the eventual Pact. Following the Pact between the FM and the CoTF came the threat of the Others. They joined forces to fight the Others but were being driven back (southward) until the 'discovery' that Dragonglass was mighty potent against them and then the Wiki states: "A great hero, who in the eastern tradition is known as Azor Ahai, led the war against the Others wielding his sword of fire,Lightbringer, driving the Others back. In the Westerosi tradition, he may be known as the last hero." Then of course that led to the building of the Wall by presumably Bran the Builder.

So, it would seem that the Magic imbued on the Wall is that of the Old Gods and the CoTF. What doesn't make sense is the Horn of Joramun. Why would the CoTF construct a horn that could/would defeat their own magic to bring down the Wall? Or, is it supposed to be that a bitter Wildling who found himself on the wrong side of it constructed it so that they could make their way south either if need be when the Others came again, or just out of spite? This is one point that does not make sense to me, but that's ok I think that's intended to this point by GRRM.

Now as for Lightbringer itself. In the Wiki we have it's definition or description of what it is and how it was made. Then there's a "theory" link which references it being possibly metaphorical, or literal, and there's also a theory of it being related to Dawn along with your theory and even tied to the Dragons or a Dragon Horn.

So, to me, while I like your theory and I leave open the possibility that it could be true, I'm hesitant because we have the gap in history as to what happened to Lightbringer, if we can believe it was a literal sword. I find it highly dubious that if Lightbringer is literally a sword that it's purpose and possession wouldn't be closely regarded and guarded. What happened to it? In your theory it's metaphorical so that would explain it's absence. If it's literal, where the hell is it?

Then you have the mystery surrounding Dawn itself after Eddard returned it to Ashara and even the 'mystery' of Ashara herself. You also have the Title given to the bearer of Dawn, Sword of the Morning. What we don't know and is missing from the histories is what Dawn's purpose was if any beyond just being a "greatsword" as well as why there is no current Dayne wielding it so far as we know.

Now in favor of your theory is that the NW after the period of the Long Night was considered to be an honorable venture. A Stark has been part of the NW for many centuries and if I recall correctly there were other nobles that took the black. Earlier in the thread there was discussion about the Oath of the NW and how it could have morphed over time, which is entirely possible. Another thing that could loosely apply to your metaphorical theory is that when the CoTF taught the FM about ravenry it's said that the ravens actually spoke the words of the message. So what we're seeing is that over a long period of time complacency has come in and history forgotten or ignored until they become the 'old wives tales' of Nan and likely many others. As we see currently most not closely associated with the NW or even some within who aren't rangers don't necessarily buy the Others' existence at all, snarks and grumpkins... so that does favor your theory, the NW itself is not embracing necessarily embracing the Vow as it used to, it's eroding into selfish aims along with all of its other problems; men, supplies, support for the rest of Westeros.

What we don't know and could unhinge your theory is what brought about the coming of the Others in the first place? AA from the Wiki was "chosen" to fight the Others. Who chose and why him specifically? In your theory the premise that it's metaphorical relies on the NW; where as the Legend according to the Wiki: "here will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

This seems to not have any bearing on the state of the NW at all but only the heralding of the Others return. The other thing that bothers me is the part referring to the warrior drawing from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer. How do we explain that metaphorically? And if it's metaphorical, how do we reconcile the forging of Lightbringer being metaphorical as well with respect to the first two attempts before Nissa Nissa is involved?

This what I think about Dawn in this:

I done a topic a while back where I said that the original Lightbringer could be Dawn as well as Dragonsteel and AA/LH wielded it and defeated The Others.

And this time AAR/LH/TPTWP (Jon) could wield Dawn again but not as Lightbringer, but just as Dragonsteel to use against The Others, as they can't stand it, and use the NW as Lightbringer this time.

[Ser Knute]

This what I think about Dawn in this:

I done a topic a while back where I said that the original Lightbringer could be Dawn as well as Dragonsteel and AA/LH wielded it and defeated The Others.

And this time AAR/LH/TPTWP (Jon) could wield Dawn again but not as Lightbringer, but just as Dragonsteel to use against The Others, as they can't stand it, and use the NW as Lightbringer this time.

Would you be able to link me that topic, I'd love to browse for more insight or at least hypotheses? I really value all of the deep thought and research folks like Martini and Fire Eater put into their theories, sometimes it's hard to keep track of all the details through theory, mixed with possible foreshadowing and empty history we have yet to be given.

Now if we presume that your premise is true it strikes me as odd because Dawn as we currently understand is the Ancestral Sword of House Dayne. What we don't know is was a Dayne the original or previous AA/LH or, was there something that transpired that passed the duty along with Dawn to House Dayne? And of course, are Lightbringer and Dawn one in the same or completely separate? That's what keeps gnawing at me about the prevailing thought that either Jon or Dany is AA®, if in fact Lightbringer is a literal sword. Something's missing that ties it together completely and the lack of history with respect to both Lightbringer and Dawn really makes it hard to discern if a particular theory is viable or not.

[King of Winters]

Would you be able to link me that topic, I'd love to browse for more insight or at least hypotheses? I really value all of the deep thought and research folks like Martini and Fire Eater put into their theories, sometimes it's hard to keep track of all the details through theory, mixed with possible foreshadowing and empty history we have yet to be given.

Now if we presume that your premise is true it strikes me as odd because Dawn as we currently understand is the Ancestral Sword of House Dayne. What we don't know is was a Dayne the original or previous AA/LH or, was there something that transpired that passed the duty along with Dawn to House Dayne? And of course, are Lightbringer and Dawn one in the same or completely separate? That's what keeps gnawing at me about the prevailing thought that either Jon or Dany is AA®, if in fact Lightbringer is a literal sword. Something's missing that ties it together completely and the lack of history with respect to both Lightbringer and Dawn really makes it hard to discern if a particular theory is viable or not.

I use my iPad so I can't link, but here's what I said in topic:

One of the popular theories about Lightbringer is that it's the NW and Jon will use it to fight The Others. I like the theory about Dawn being the original Lightbringer and also being Dragonsteel.

And I was wondering could the NW be Lightbringer but Jon still wields Dawn, and if it's Dragonsteel, then Jon has a purpose to use it. He has a sword that's made of a substance The Others can't stand and can kill them and unites men against them with Dawn when they see it can kill Others, but the NW still Lightbringer.

Just a little thought I had.

If you'd like to read the topic it's called Jon using both Dawn and NW against the Others.

[Raining Blood Magic]

I could see this being true.

[Leif]

Lightbringer is clearly the sun. What else brings the light?

[MidnightAurora]

The long summer is officially over, the red comet is the bleeding star, Longclaw is Lightbringer, the sword pulled from the fire by the Old Bear after the climactic reveal of the return of wights and the Others (the dread hour), saying something like, "the guard and grip have been burned away but it would take a fire a thousand times hotter to harm the blade" possibly alluding to it's origins), and the one who wields it, Jon Snow, is Azor Ahai. Speculation, but I really hope it's true. The bastard knows nothing, but he's still my favorite character.

I think you came up with plausible examples. I too was thinking the same thing that NW could be LB as their vows are interesting to say the least. In one line they state " I am the sword in the Dark, Protector of the realms of Men.. Where as they they could say kingdom, but I think the realms of men is an important indicator. I also think the vows/NW are used as a history lesson so if people repeat the vows the history could be maintained somewhat because people would forget other things like the wights/ dragon glass kills Other etc.. Liek LC Mormont stated that they should be armed with dragon glass daggers, the wildlings are not the enemy but the Other/Wights and he is reeling from all that they had lost/forgotten. He orders Sam to tell all of what happened to ensure people know. Aemon states Stannis sword is wrong and assumes Mel must know this too because it shines but gives off no heat which is incorrect. i always thought the reforged ICE would be LB and Jon would wield it. When he arrived at the wall he dreamt he wielded a greatsword and thought it was ICE, but it felt and look different.

I agree. If GRRM kills off Jon Snow, there will be rioting in the streets.

I for one would be reeling if he kills off Jon and he is also one of my favorites right up there with Arya and would be upset if she dies too.

[Arrowtic]

Here comes a question :

could Nissa Nisaa be Ygritte ?(and jon has probably actually killed her)

Dunno if someone has mentioned this before .