Is Bran the Dark Overlord? (SPOILER)

[Ser Lepus]

In every fantasy story, good or bad, the Dark Overlord is present from the beginning of the book; even if he is not seen "on screen", everybody speaks of him, as to make the readers familiar with the main antagonist (think of Sauron, of Voldemort, of Takhsis...etc.).

The main antagonist is so much a main character and almost as much a protagonist of the history as the hero himself...if the Big Bad is somebody who just appears and is killed/defeated in the last chapters, the effect is the same as if the main hero appears only at the end of the book and suddenly solves everything without showing his efforts and adventures: completely underwhelming.

In ASOIAF a Dark Overlord, the Great Other, is hinted, but next to nothing is known of him, and most of the characters know nothing of him (at least the main ones; I guess the people in Essos is familiar with his legend); even Bloodraven, if he were to become the Big Bad, appears too late in the story.

I think this violation of one of the main literary rules of an epic story could mean only one of two things:

1.-GRRM is subverting the trope and there is no Great Other; the Others are just an alien and/or malevolent race invading Westeros, but their presence is not backed by a Great Evil Force. The people who believes in the existence of the Great Other, like Melisandre, are wrong and making things worse because of their error.

2.-The Great Other is somebody we know from the beginning, but we don´t perceive as the main antagonist; if this is the case, then I think Bran is the only posible candidate: Bloodraven is sinister, the Old Gods, the Old Religion, the COTF, all have a sinister streak with their tree-zombies, their ghost-possesed weir-woods and the blood sacrifes to the latter, and Bran himself is becoming more and more disenchanted of his future, his role, his life and the world in general, and more and more amoral in the use of his powers (he has already broken all the taboos: cannibalism, warging into humans,...etc.); I think he is very close to stealing permanently Hodor´s body so as to escape with Meera (and I think we all know how well it would end if he tries something like that...).

I also have the feeling the Others have a link to the COTF: maybe they are a split of the race, maybe they are a form of dead greenseers inhabiting wights, maybe the COTF who develop feelings of hate and revenge become Others; maybe Bloodraven is the one behind them (the COTF doesn´t seem able to feel hate or want revenge, but Bloodraven is human, and is a man who went from being the most powerful of the kingdom to be unjustly exiled to the Wall by his jealous nephew, and has spent almost a century being a sort of living dead attached to a tree, chewing his grundges...that just can´t be good. I suspect he may have had a hand in the fiasco of Summerhall, the madness of Aerys, the kidnapping of Lyanna, and the destruction of House Targayren in general...).

Anyway, I think there is something very dark in Bran future. The hints about the Ice Dragon are disturbing, taking into account animals can be raised as wights, and greenseers seem able to control wights and maybe even possess them (ancient frozen wight dragon, anybody?).

You thougths?

[Lord_Debaka]

This is a great theory, and the possibilities are there for this to work out as you have considered, but I honestly just think that Martin is too difficult to properly trace. I have no idea what he's doing with Bran, but what your saying seems VERY possible.

[Tin Pony]

There's a thread that suggests something very similar to your thoughts here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/58979-adwd-spoilers-jaime-bran/

A lot of good stuff in there, you should check it out.

[ipsuel]

I kind of love and hate your theory. Maybe I just fear that it's right on the money. Lol.

My immediate thought is that it would/may explain something that has bugged me for a while now--If BR is good, and his use of Bran is on the up-and-up (you know, no evil muahahahas going on), then why wouldn't he want/allow/encourage Bran to touch base with Jon on his way through? Why does Sam need to keep it secret?

I mean... certainly BR could afford to wait an extra 5 minutes for Bran (while he said Hey Bro to Jon/Ghost, and yeah um... I dunno, maybe Jon him know that he and rikkon are ALIVE!!)... Certain BR could allow him those 5 minutes before Bran had to buckle down and save the world or whatever?

Seems like a head-scratcher is BR/Bran will end up heroes or good at all!

ETA: I realize BR wasn't at the Gate saying "Come on already, and keep yourself secret!" but if he was calling Bran to him, and kept tabs on the Starks -- why not encourage Coldhands to let bran stop by Jons room? (You get the drift of what I mean) lol

[Ser Lepus]

Well, maybe I´m wrong and he just feared Jon wouldn´t let his crippled infant brother to go the other side of the Wall...but Bloodraven is just too sinister.

I dunno, maybe GRRM wants to use the old trope "don´t judge a book by its covers...", and Bloodraven is good after all...

[d_mess]

Its a good theory. IF GRRM follows the trope of a known badguy, Bran is probably the only option, exept perhaps Dany, but Dany wouold not be consistant with the "Great Other" idea because she is associated with fire rather than ice.

To me though, I feel there is 4 major religious/magical forces in the story. Two each are associated with Fire and Ice respectively. The Others and the Old Gods for Ice, R'hllor and Dragons for Fire.

The great intrigue is why are there 2 each? If we are to eventually end up with a "good vs evil" ending, do the Fires and Ices each fuse? The Old Gods and the Others are revealed to be two sides of the same Coin, while the followers of R'hllor gravitate towards Dragons.This would be make Bran or Bloodraven likely antagonists. Dany is almost surely Azor Ahai and the main protagonist.

Or,do the likable and less likable each fuse? The Old Gods and the Dragons team up to save the world from the Others, and the mislead followers of R'hllor. R'hllor makes zombies just like the Others, and this would make the most sense with a "Jon Targaryen" protagonist. In this case, Stannis could even be the Great Other. His daughter does have greyscale which seems to have "Other" (pun very much intended) connotations north of the wall.

Or lastly, as we begin to like Dany less and less in recent books, could the Old Gods and R'hllor be the good guys? Dany and her dragons could end up not being very important. This would line up with the theorys of Jon being Azor Ahai.

Kind of off-topic I know, but what Im getting as is IF the 4 religions/forces mentioned ARE unique and important, and IF a "good vs evil" and "fire vs ice" confrontation will end up being the climax of the series, then Bran as the Great Other could only fit into one scenario, and its arguably the least likely. I still believe in the R+L=J fanboyism which links Starks with Targaryens as the heros of the series, which would simply not allow Bran to be evil.

*I guess its possible too that the Old Gods are good, but Bran ends up corrupted. However, I think Bloodraven would have to be evil for this to happen, and he has children of the forest living with him, which is way more authentic Old-God'ism than anybody else, so he is almost surely a proper representation of the Old Gods.

[ipsuel]

So I wanna toss my notion in now, way before the end of the series. Hahaha

IF Bran ends up corrupted, (major *if*) then my take is he will die by fire, and Jon will, at a minimum, be looking on, allowing it. (My actual thought on this is that it will happen with Aegon, but I am tweaking it to fit here lol). I base this solely and completely on a line that Jon thinks to himself, that has always screamed foreshadowing to me :)

Either Aegon (if R+L=J is true) or Bran (if he's Eddard's) would fit this nicely.

"What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?"

Martin, George R.R. (2011-07-12). A Dance with Dragons: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Five (p. 586). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

[Ser Lepus]

I guess its possible too that the Old Gods are good, but Bran ends up corrupted. However, I think Bloodraven would have to be evil for this to happen, and he has children of the forest living with him, which is way more authentic Old-God'ism than anybody else, so he is almost surely a proper representation of the Old Gods.

Maybe the COTF aren´t taking revenge personally against the humans, but won´t stop Bloodraven either...why should they do so? Even if you are a peaceful persorn, would you fight a friend of yours that wants to fight your enemies? Maybe they have no stomach for violence, but approve that Bloodraven fights for them...

[blackseer]

I believe that ice (Others and the old gods) and fire (dragons and R'hllor) are two opposites forces of nature that balance each other, so neither is good or evil. So Bran wouldn't become the Dark Overlord unless he wants to. I don't think he will, but he still doesn't know what happened to Robb and Cat, so we don't know how he will react.

Speaking of great evils, I would like to step a little outside the topic. I think the great evil is not one of the two magical powers, but the fact that the deads are coming back (from ice or fire or Qyburn). So my guess of the final villain would be Catelyn, who've been in the books from the beginning, had a turn for the worse and became a murderous spirit.

[Ser Lepus]

I believe that ice (Others and the old gods) and fire (dragons and R'hllor) are two opposites forces of nature that balance each other, so neither is good or evil. So Bran wouldn't become the Dark Overlord unless he wants to. I don't think he will, but he still doesn't know what happened to Robb and Cat, so we don't know how he will react.

Speaking of great evils, I would like to step a little outside the topic. I think the great evil is not one of the two magical powers, but the fact that the deads are coming back (from ice or fire or Qyburn). So my guess of the final villain would be Catelyn, who've been in the books from the beginning, had a turn for the worse and became a murderous spirit.

I dunno, she doesn´t seem central enough...

[Stark@heart]

Sounds like something GRRM would do. Also dragon wrights.

[Alia of the knife]

I think your idea is one of the most uniquely creative that I have seen.

BUT, I do think Jaimie will probably be the one in Maggy the Frogs vision that kills Cersei, and that would be Martins "bittersweet-ism."

I think Martin has to walk a balance between all the cliffhangers, red herrings, and mysteries.

It seems he has enough on his plate, and keeping the mysteries somewhat streamlined preserves the story's sense of flow.

[flame7926]

I got some feelings like the CotF and the tree guy and weirwoods and wolves are against Rhllor, when Bran first talked to the tree guy. And also some things Mellisandre have said. So maybe he is, but I more felt like Mellisandre is really the bad one, and Bran and stuff are the good guys.

[GreenAppleFossoway]

This is a really good theory. If indeed Jon is a Targaryen, history could repeat itself if Bran killed him (a-la Bloodraven and Daemon) just like it seems to be doing.

[Sister Goldenhair]

You and Brosbeforesnows seems to have the same idea about Bran.

[gee666]

Maybe the COTF aren´t taking revenge personally against the humans, but won´t stop Bloodraven either...why should they do so? Even if you are a peaceful persorn, would you fight a friend of yours that wants to fight your enemies? Maybe they have no stomach for violence, but approve that Bloodraven fights for them...

Unless the COTF are responsable for the others

The others appeared after the COTF were being attacked by the first men, then the others pushed back the first men and only an alliance millenia? later ended the others

this led to the pact on the isle of faces.

Human numbers having been reduced i guess to a level where they were no longer a threat to the COTF

I submit cold hands as evidence that the COTF have some kowledge of making? an other

oh and hi

[Lord Damian]

In every fantasy story, good or bad, the Dark Overlord is present from the beginning of the book; even if he is not seen "on screen", everybody speaks of him, as to make the readers familiar with the main antagonist (think of Sauron, of Voldemort, of Takhsis...etc.).

The main antagonist is so much a main character and almost as much a protagonist of the history as the hero himself...if the Big Bad is somebody who just appears and is killed/defeated in the last chapters, the effect is the same as if the main hero appears only at the end of the book and suddenly solves everything without showing his efforts and adventures: completely underwhelming.

In ASOIAF a Dark Overlord, the Great Other, is hinted, but next to nothing is known of him, and most of the characters know nothing of him (at least the main ones; I guess the people in Essos is familiar with his legend); even Bloodraven, if he were to become the Big Bad, appears too late in the story.

I think this violation of one of the main literary rules of an epic story could mean only one of two things:

1.-GRRM is subverting the trope and there is no Great Other; the Others are just an alien and/or malevolent race invading Westeros, but their presence is not backed by a Great Evil Force. The people who believes in the existence of the Great Other, like Melisandre, are wrong and making things worse because of their error.

2.-The Great Other is somebody we know from the beginning, but we don´t perceive as the main antagonist; if this is the case, then I think Bran is the only posible candidate: Bloodraven is sinister, the Old Gods, the Old Religion, the COTF, all have a sinister streak with their tree-zombies, their ghost-possesed weir-woods and the blood sacrifes to the latter, and Bran himself is becoming more and more disenchanted of his future, his role, his life and the world in general, and more and more amoral in the use of his powers (he has already broken all the taboos: cannibalism, warging into humans,...etc.); I think he is very close to stealing permanently Hodor´s body so as to escape with Meera (and I think we all know how well it would end if he tries something like that...).

I also have the feeling the Others have a link to the COTF: maybe they are a split of the race, maybe they are a form of dead greenseers inhabiting wights, maybe the COTF who develop feelings of hate and revenge become Others; maybe Bloodraven is the one behind them (the COTF doesn´t seem able to feel hate or want revenge, but Bloodraven is human, and is a man who went from being the most powerful of the kingdom to be unjustly exiled to the Wall by his jealous nephew, and has spent almost a century being a sort of living dead attached to a tree, chewing his grundges...that just can´t be good. I suspect he may have had a hand in the fiasco of Summerhall, the madness of Aerys, the kidnapping of Lyanna, and the destruction of House Targayren in general...).

Anyway, I think there is something very dark in Bran future. The hints about the Ice Dragon are disturbing, taking into account animals can be raised as wights, and greenseers seem able to control wights and maybe even possess them (ancient frozen wight dragon, anybody?).

You thougths?

I have always thought that there is a great other. I am thinking that they can and may be a skinchanger, a faceless person, Dany? Who knows. I find it hard to believe that this is really a zombie horror story in a dark age time.

[Glyn Tarvoke]

Bran as the great other? Seems pretty inconsistent with how nice a fellow Bran has been throughout the series. Or why the wall was built and how the COTF used to help built it. COTF seem to be the ultimate environmentalists. Spending so much time singing to the trees? Fighting the wights and being warded from them? I don't buy the COTF are actually evil or that they fed Bran Jojen paste. (I thought Bran was in the trees for so long that Meera and Jojen tried to make it back to the wall). Look how bad Bran felt about eating the elk. Bran was only a cannibal when Coldhands was desperate enough to feed them meat (some of the NW deserters who killed Mormont is how I guessed it) and even then Bran, Meera and Jojen didn't figure out what had happened.

This theory seems a lot like certain folk who argue environmental protection laws actually make the environment worse off. Maybe but I don't see Bran or the COFT going in that direction.

[Ser Lepus]

Bran as the great other? Seems pretty inconsistent with how nice a fellow Bran has been throughout the series. Or why the wall was built and how the COTF used to help built it. COTF seem to be the ultimate environmentalists. Spending so much time singing to the trees? Fighting the wights and being warded from them? I don't buy the COTF are actually evil or that they fed Bran Jojen paste. (I thought Bran was in the trees for so long that Meera and Jojen tried to make it back to the wall). Look how bad Bran felt about eating the elk. Bran was only a cannibal when Coldhands was desperate enough to feed them meat (some of the NW deserters who killed Mormont is how I guessed it) and even then Bran, Meera and Jojen didn't figure out what had happened.

This theory seems a lot like certain folk who argue environmental protection laws actually make the environment worse off. Maybe but I don't see Bran or the COFT going in that direction.

Maybe the COTF or Bloodraven can´t control what they have created, maybe the COTF doesn´t have control over the wights and Bloodraven can´t be bothered to protect the Children all the time, so they need something else to fend them; maybe the Others are something like a militant split group of the COTF with a different philosophy that the main branch, and they will seduce Bran to the Dark Side; maybe Bran will go nuts when he realizes everything he has lost, and betray everybody: the COTF, Bloodraven, Jojen, Meera, the Night Watch, the Starks, the North and humanity...who knows? the posibilities are infinite...

As for Bran being a good boy, I will answer with something Terry Pratchet said: "people aren´t human per se, they need other people around to remember them all the time how is it to be human...spend too many time isolated, and you become something else"; I think it was one of the books of the Watch series. Let a little kid in a cave with the only company of aliens and a creepy tree-zombie ancient warlock, watching from afar everything he has lost and will never recover, envious of the light and the freedom and the company of other humans...I don´t think anybody could live that way much time without losing touch with humanity and becoming completely abnormal. I think Jojen and Meera are the only thing that is keeping Bran together; if Jojen dies, and Meera leaves, he will be desesperate enough as to try anything...

An anyways, I almost prefer Bran to go with a bang, shaping the face of the world, either saving or kicking the collective asses of everybody else, rather than spend a century or more in that hole with the dying renmants of a rwilight race...

[eyeheartsansa]

.. or else bloodraven is the Overlord and Bran is going to defeat him?