Is Bran the Dark Overlord? (SPOILER)

[Rarm]

While I am unsure of Bran being TGO or anything particularly evil, I do think that will have a large role in the "final battle". I'm just not sure what that role is yet xD I'm betting that it will have something to do with his new Weirwood matrix abilities.

BloodRaven said that communicating via weirwood with people from the present/past was impossible, but we already know that Bran has surpassed this when talking to Theon. I think that Bran has a lot more raw power than BloodRaven even though BR has more experience.

Now to the whole history/time being a cycle. I can see that having nuggets of truth becuase of what we see especially in Bran's ADWD chapters. This might be hard to follow but here it goes...

BR has told Bran that the Weirwoods exist outside of time/space. When warging them you see the past/present/future. When he sees Ned in the godswood and tries to speak to him, Ned hears the leaves rustle but just brushes it off. Even though this was clearly the past, it was Bran Ned was hearing. the whole time etc. This same principle means that Bran perhaps could perhaps change the past/future since he has successfully spoken with someone(Theon) through the tree. This could be catastrophic of course but he is limited in what he could theoretically change, especially in regards to himself and recent events in ASOIAF e.g. He couldn't go back and change Jaime pushing him because then he would have never slipped into the coma and connected with the 3EC, which means he wouldn't have gone north of the wall and started tree-warging, which gave him the ability to change the event in the first place. Very tricky.

[di0p]

Really interesting theory.

Not to mention the idea of being different and a feeling of isolation since his fall. He is constantly reminding himself that he is a cripple and that people look down on him at all times. This bears striking resemblance to a "villain" or Dark Overlord who was spurned or wronged by society or a group at some point.

When you also consider he was essentially abandoned by his family at a young age, a dark streak of revenge may be something in his future.

Nobody even seems to be looking for Bran, as he is merely the crippled Stark, even though he is the true heir to Winterfell. Manderly is more concerned with finding Rickon (or perhaps he only knows where Rickon may be, not Bran).

I could definitely see his disturbing childhood and sense of abandonment turning him into a heel.

My only counter would be the Reeds. By all accounts, Howland and Eddard were honorable and honest men. Why would Howland send his children to Winterfell to escort Bran to the 3EC if there was a chance he would become an evil force in the world? Certainly that doesn't bode well for the North, which the Reeds are loyal too.

[Jory]

"What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?"

Martin, George R.R. (2011-07-12). A Dance with Dragons: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Five (p. 586). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

Funny enough, Daenerys is that sort of (wo)man!

[CJS 2207]

I like it.

We have seen Bran abuse his warg powers. And I agree that he is becoming more and more detached from his life hitherto his arrival with the Reeds, Hordor, and Summer at the cave/lair where he meets BR and the COTF.

Overall, I find this aspect of aSoIaF to be one of the most intriguing, and cannot help but suspect that there is a nexus between BR the COTF and the Others... sinister or otherwise.

Whether there is indeed a "Great Other" and if this entity is or is not Bran (or BR with Bran playing the role of the "wolf boy" in Melisandre's vision) is one of the plethora of mysteries that keep me more than eagerly anticipating the next installment of the series.

[eclaire291]

I don't know... There's only two more books to go, right? I don't think Bran can develop into that much of a threat against all the royal families of Westeros in that short amount of time. Then again, this is George R.R. Martin we're talking about so anything is possible. I'd be disappointed if it did though. I see Bran more as a accidental villain that can be brought back to the "good" side without much struggle if someone would finally recognize that he's turning into a berserker and deal with him.

[Whorehammer]

Bran might be the one to cause the Wall to fall by controlling the roots deep under the Wall. Bran is either the Dark Overlord or he is just in a coma dreaming all this. In the end he will wake up and all the Starks are fine.

[eclaire291]

Bran might be the one to cause the Wall to fall by controlling the roots deep under the Wall. Bran is either the Dark Overlord or he is just in a coma dreaming all this. In the end he will wake up and all the Starks are fine.

God, I hope not. That would be awful if everything was just a dream.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I think we're going to be surprised by the "good-evil" associations we're making with the Others, and honestly, any other purely "good-evil" associations we're making. This series is not about the stereotypical cosmic battle of good and evil. I don't think the Others, COTF, and the Stark kids' paths are quite what they seem at this point.

That being said, I completely agree that there's a chance Bran's path is going to lead him into doing things and allying himself with forces that we now think would be either unimaginable, or evil, but that his actions will all be for the ultimate good of mankind and his family. In my mind this is really similar to how Bloodraven in his own time was popularly perceived has an sorcerer of very questionable character, a dark persona. Yet, he was always working for the stability and peace of the realm, having to get his hands a little dirty in the process.

I thought Bran just a sweet kid, too -- but the one thing that leads me to question that is this: He knows its wrong to warg Hodor. Not because of warg-rules or anything, just because he can feel it, instinctively. Hence the reason he doesn't tell anyone.

I mean hell, Hodor didn't like it at first, and now is to the point of whimpering -- yet Bran *still chooses to do it.* He doesn't make the "right, moral" choice of stopping, or talking to someone about it -- he continues to do it... knowing its wrong, and knowing that he is invading someone who A) is simple-minded and B) has been damn good to Bran.

That's not only sad, but it's a little scary, when related to the idea of what he (Bran) is capable of as he grows older.

Yeah, Bran definitely understands that warging Hodor is a violation, but I don't think doing it implies that he's on the path to evil. He begins warging Hodor in the first place to deal with a dangerous situation (Hodor shouting and giving their position away), and then continues because he's a little kid who just wants to explore with the other kids. He's being selfish, not evil, and he tries to mitigate his action by telling Hodor mentally, " I don't want to hurt you, I'll give it back, like I always do." I'm paraphrasing here, but that line made my heart go out to Bran. He's doing something wrong and he knows it, but his intention is not evil, and he's still a sweet little kid.

Second reason Bran is not going to be evil: his coma dreams and what happened after. The 3EC showed him the danger in the lands of always winter, he woke up knowing what it was he had to fight in a vague sense, and he then finally named his wolf, SUMMER. The names of the Stark kids' wolves are extremely relevant. Not going to get into that here, I'm sure there are other threads for this. Bran immediately after waking from his dream, knows what he wants to name his wolf (aka knows what his path is now.) And that path will lead to bringing back summer. He names Summer after his hope, which certainly isn't eternal winter.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

While I am unsure of Bran being TGO or anything particularly evil, I do think that will have a large role in the "final battle". I'm just not sure what that role is yet xD I'm betting that it will have something to do with his new Weirwood matrix abilities.

BloodRaven said that communicating via weirwood with people from the present/past was impossible, but we already know that Bran has surpassed this when talking to Theon. I think that Bran has a lot more raw power than BloodRaven even though BR has more experience.

Now to the whole history/time being a cycle. I can see that having nuggets of truth becuase of what we see especially in Bran's ADWD chapters. This might be hard to follow but here it goes...

BR has told Bran that the Weirwoods exist outside of time/space. When warging them you see the past/present/future. When he sees Ned in the godswood and tries to speak to him, Ned hears the leaves rustle but just brushes it off. Even though this was clearly the past, it was Bran Ned was hearing. the whole time etc. This same principle means that Bran perhaps could perhaps change the past/future since he has successfully spoken with someone(Theon) through the tree. This could be catastrophic of course but he is limited in what he could theoretically change, especially in regards to himself and recent events in ASOIAF e.g. He couldn't go back and change Jaime pushing him because then he would have never slipped into the coma and connected with the 3EC, which means he wouldn't have gone north of the wall and started tree-warging, which gave him the ability to change the event in the first place. Very tricky.

Anything Bran does to affect the past has already happened and is firmly part of the story we've already read. The only addition at this point will be finding out that Bran did it, like possibly learning Bran sent the pregnant direwolf, Bran sent Coldhands, idk, whatever else you can think of that Bran may already have done. I'm just trying to make the point that we already know about it the event and how it impacted the story.

GRRM was mighty coy when someone asked about Bran being able to influence the past, which makes me think it happens/happened/will happen(time travel mind-fuck!)

However, until confirmed by text, I still think Bran's most important weirnet surfing contribution will be to explain some of this crazy history stuff that we've only been give hints of thus far, and reveal some awesome hidden Stark/Night's Watch/First Men/COTF/Others secrets that will help save the world

[Kanyin Snow]

Anything Bran does to affect the past has already happened and is firmly part of the story we've already read. The only addition at this point will be finding out that Bran did it, like possibly learning Bran sent the pregnant direwolf, Bran sent Coldhands, idk, whatever else you can think of that Bran may already have done. I'm just trying to make the point that we already know about it the event and how it impacted the story.

Absolutely agreed!! It wouldn't change the story we've read, it would just explain why some thing happened.

[FanTasy]

Yeah, Bran definitely understands that warging Hodor is a violation, but I don't think doing it implies that he's on the path to evil. He begins warging Hodor in the first place to deal with a dangerous situation (Hodor shouting and giving their position away), and then continues because he's a little kid who just wants to explore with the other kids. He's being selfish, not evil, and he tries to mitigate his action by telling Hodor mentally, " I don't want to hurt you, I'll give it back, like I always do." I'm paraphrasing here, but that line made my heart go out to Bran. He's doing something wrong and he knows it, but his intention is not evil, and he's still a sweet little kid.

Hmm ... I have to say that my heart would primarily go out to Hodor. Hodor is the one here who can't protect himself, who is vulnerable and who is violated. Sure, Bran is a kid, but kids like grown ups sometimes do evil things and they are not automatically excused by being kids.

Bran knows it is wrong what he does to Hodor - but he still does it. To be honest I was a bit repulsed to read Bran's excuse, that he is not really hurting Hodor. He knows Hodor is terrified and can't protect himself.

You could say the first time Bran was warging Hodor it could be something necessary.

But afterwards Bran is using Hodor without consent, as chattel, as a means of transportation.

There are sad situations in life where you have to hurt somebody for their own good. But that's not the case here, Bran does what he does to Hodor for his own good. Not nice.

[Sun]

I don't think there'll be a Great Other. Just like there isn't a R'hollor. It's religious myth. I think the whole theme of ASOIAF is that there is no such thing as pure evil, just flawed humanity commiting evil acts. I think the Others will prove a result of of some ancient magic (probably by the COTF) just like dragons. Think of dragons running wild with no one to tame & control them, their destructive force would vastly over take anything that an army of Others can do. I think the coming battle is one between essential elements of nature and magic.... fire vs ice. Sometime a long time ago the balance of nature was disturbed and sent off-kilter by a magical intervention. As a result, Others and dragons came into being, and while both have been in some form of semi-hibernation for an age, something, possibly a natural imperative of some sort - a pre-ordained time, or the natural systm nearing a state entropy - has stirred them again. The only way to restore balance to this world is if both face off, and annihilate each other entirely. Only then will nature be free of magic.

Apologies if it all sounds a bit vague and not very well thought out.

[Lord Florent]

If the dreamers are impaled and dead in the frozen heart of winter, then the Others are at war with the Old Gods and the CotF, not in league with them.

Another example is the Wall, We know there's magic behind the Wall and it's main purpose is to repel the Others. We also know there's a weirwood tree that only opens to the Night's Watch (and friends). Maybe it's just me but I always assumed the Wall was built, magically reinforced and maintained by the presence of the Night's Watch and the Guidance of the Old Gods/COTF. There are too many mentions of the COTF fighting/helping the NW fight against the Others for the Old Gods to be evil.

I have to admit that something is pretty fishy about the Jojen-blood situation, Coldhands, Darkness and even how the weirwood trees all seem to have sad/angry/distorted faces.

[alienarea]

There must be a connection between the Stark's and the Others. We have the Stark slogan "Winter is coming", we have the direwolves as their animal, we have the wife of the Night King. And, when Melisandre has the vision with the boy with the wolf face crying next to Bran, could that be Robb?

We also have the ghosts of Winterfell and Eddard's bones still missing.

Normally you fire and ice, but this is the song of ice and fire. Reversed order. The main protagonists are evil. Eddard is fighting in a rebellion. He kills the most respected knight of his time (by foul means). He cheats on his wife immediately after the wedding. Robb breaks his marriage vow to House Frey. Arya is becoming a trained assassin.

Remember, the direwolves are going to outlive all.

So, since the big evil needs to be introduced early in the story. Eddard is the TGO. :dunno:

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Hmm ... I have to say that my heart would primarily go out to Hodor. Hodor is the one here who can't protect himself, who is vulnerable and who is violated. Sure, Bran is a kid, but kids like grown ups sometimes do evil things and they are not automatically excused by being kids.

Bran knows it is wrong what he does to Hodor - but he still does it. To be honest I was a bit repulsed to read Bran's excuse, that he is not really hurting Hodor. He knows Hodor is terrified and can't protect himself.

You could say the first time Bran was warging Hodor it could be something necessary.

But afterwards Bran is using Hodor without consent, as chattel, as a means of transportation.

There are sad situations in life where you have to hurt somebody for their own good. But that's not the case here, Bran does what he does to Hodor for his own good. Not nice.

Sorry, I emphasized Bran because I was thinking of his evolution. But yeah, I felt really bad for Hodor through all of the questionable taking over of his brain too. I was just really happy that Bran seemed to feel guilt and a need to comfort and reassure Hodor, because I too was wondering if he would go over to the Dark Side. Showing humanity (even while behaving selfishly at best) kind of reassured me that he was going to be ok. He's one of my favorite characters, I don't want him to be evil. :)

No, kids are not automatically excused for doing bad things knowingly. However, they are kids, underdeveloped mentally and emotionally when compared to adults. Childhood is a time to learn, make mistakes, and learn some more. Bran may do questionable things, this series is about grey characters and human nature after all. But Bran is no Little Walder.

[gramblor]

1. I don't see why everyone says that Bloodraven is so sinister? From all of the Dunk and Egg stories, I haven't really come across anything sinister that he has done (aside from kinslaying, which was done in supporting the trueborn heir to the iron throne).

2. I don't believe that the CoTF would have created the others, or are controlling them. We already know that the others have been around for a long time (8000 years is the oldest mentioned date IIRC), and that the CoTF used to supply the NW with obsidian arrow heads and daggers every year to combat them.

3. Bran is a nice little kid, certainly has no indication of being evil (though warging into Hodor is morally debatable)

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Yeah, there's nothing from BR's history to indicate he would want to wipe out mankind in favor of the Others, or really be particularly evil in any way. He just seems like a very capable political mover who sometimes takes an "end justifies means" approach, but otherwise works for stability and utilitarianism

[Kylol]

My take is that its absolutely impossible based on what kind of writer GRRM has continually proved himself to be, that the "great other" and whoever goes against him are actually Good/Evil. This helps support the theory that bloodraven and bran are working for him or are him (as that's what melisandre seems to have seen in her fires). Because if the others/The great other are literally just the enemy of mankind and want to annihilate it, there is no way bran would go for that. He has suffered, but not nearly as much as other characters and he doesn't seem to have reacted to his suffering by becoming NEARLY emo enough to want to annihilate the race of men. Catelyn stark maybe....

Also, why do people keep assuming that the great other is pure evil (if he exists)? Its made abundantly clear that their are NO evil or good characters, so even if he is a deity in some sense i still don't think we will get any "pure evil" forces in ASOIAF, nor any "pure good" ones. Its just not GRRM. Same with the others themselves, just because the characters in the story who are aware of their existence and the myths suggest that they are evil, is their ANYTHING actually suggesting that they want to wipe out the race of men?

[Gauis Julius Caesar]

I don't know... There's only two more books to go, right? I don't think Bran can develop into that much of a threat against all the royal families of Westeros in that short amount of time. Then again, this is George R.R. Martin we're talking about so anything is possible. I'd be disappointed if it did though. I see Bran more as a accidental villain that can be brought back to the "good" side without much struggle if someone would finally recognize that he's turning into a berserker and deal with him.

.

I think there is something we are forgetting. Grrm wanted their to be a five year gap. Why did he want it? So the kids could grow up and have a bigger impact on the story. Assuming he didn't fundamentally change the story to accommodate the lack of "time jump" , which is a safe assumption because at this point grrm is waaaay past the rubicon for changing the story. Now take that into account, imagine bran stuck in that cave for years, Isolated from human contact, losing track and concept of the passage of time. I'd say its more likely that he'd end up warped than not warped. So maybe that lack of five year jump requires a stronger suspension of disbelief, but he didn't plan to put in there for the fun of it. It was something essential that he eventually had to work around. And who does the time Jump affect the most? Bran in the cave and arya with the faceless men

[Waylin Stark]

It'd be scarily awesome if something like that happens. But I really doubt it will, Bran wasn't inherently evil, and isn't becoming evil.

The Big Bad Overlord will probably be the Others as a whole.