A nagging doubt regarding the direwolves

[kissdbyfire]

Yep, a combo of both actually gives us an excellent explanation. The show changed some things. I would rather stick to the books. Okay so I went through ASOS really rapidly and did not find anything about Nymeria being able to do this. Unfortunately, Arya only wargs into Nymeria when she is sleeping so it is a tough one. But I assume since Ghost and Summer can do it then the others must have the same ability. Very interesting stuff.

I was searching as well, and couldn't find one. I thought it had happened when Nymeria finds Catelyn's body because I remembered her thinking 'my brothers' or something like that. She does, but she's thinking about the wolves that are with her at the Twins. I also couldn't find other bits, but I do think she can sense the other direwolves. Tough to find though. I'll bookmark anything I come across during my re-read.

[ARYa_Nym]

Maybe Nymeria considers her army of wolves her new pack? Arya herself is trying to forget that she's a Stark and has lost her true family. Maybe it's the same with her wolf.

[kephv]

Exactly! Does Summer/Bran sense the other wolves then? Thinking about it now, I think he doesn't. The other bit where I thought maybe Nymeria felt the other direwolves was when she found Catelyn dead, when Arya was with the Hound.

He not only senses them, he knows when Robb dies too because of Summer's dream.

[kissdbyfire]

He not only senses them, he knows when Robb dies too because of Summer's dream.

I know! I'm reading that and thinking, 'I didn't say that!' Must have thought one thing and typed the opposite. I had said before I thought Bran/Summer and Arya/Nymeria did sense the others.

[The Sleeper]

Hi, newbie here,

Doesn't that sort of indicate that the kids will be able to sense each other at some point later on?

[Grail King]

Just because a wolf dies does not mean a Stark is going to die,Robb died because he did not heed the warning of his wolf one Robb dies so did the wolf.

Sansa never got to do that bond and since she's follows more her mothers god it may not occur to her that she could do this; there is also a possibility she could inherit another wolf either one sent to her from the north via Bran or what if Jon comes back but Ghost need not be sacrifice Ghost could find Sansa. Sansa did visit weirwoods in KL, also she has an inkling about wargging from talking to Tyrion maybe not how to do it. It does seem that there still a connection to Lady maybe just enough that her siblings may sense her also since she is the weakest warg, she may do small animals or birds and maybe Bran can help her.

Just rambling.

[ARYa_Nym]

I see Val or Mel keeping Ghost safe until Jon comes back.

"Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

I expect their bond to be even stronger now that he will be living as Ghost for a while as Mel saw in her fires. Varamyr said that he didn't embrace his power. He can't deny it now.

[Buried Treasure]

I don't think Ghost being different is an R+L=J thing. He is different because he belongs more closely to the Old Gods, and they dont give a toss about the Targs, likewise the AA prophecy seems to be a fire / Rhollor thing rather than associated with the Old Gods.

Not to say Jon can't be AA. Just that when Jon got picked for the wolf that is different the Old Gods did not sense he is 'ice and fire' but something specific to their own prophecies (that Jon would be in the NW? that he is the Last Hero?)

[ZacharyB]

I see Val or Mel keeping Ghost safe until Jon comes back.

Mel most likely has Ghost atm. She asks where he is right before Jon gives his speech to the NW.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I was searching as well, and couldn't find one. I thought it had happened when Nymeria finds Catelyn's body because I remembered her thinking 'my brothers' or something like that. She does, but she's thinking about the wolves that are with her at the Twins. I also couldn't find other bits, but I do think she can sense the other direwolves. Tough to find though. I'll bookmark anything I come across during my re-read.

I have been thinking about it since we left off here and I really think they must all sense each other, which is why I am so confused as why their owners think the others are dead. For instance, if Ghost is able to tell that Nymeria has a pack of hundreds around her then why can't he tell that Rickon is still alive and with Shaggy? I find that rather strange, tbh.

Maybe Nymeria considers her army of wolves her new pack? Arya herself is trying to forget that she's a Stark and has lost her true family. Maybe it's the same with her wolf.

This is such a good point!

Hi, newbie here,

Doesn't that sort of indicate that the kids will be able to sense each other at some point later on?

Yes that is what we are trying to figure out. But why later on? Why not now? Unless it is a sort of skill that develops over time amongst the wolves? For instance, in ASOS Summer only senses the other but in ADWD, Ghost not only senses them but he is able to see what they are doing at that exact moment and can even hear them. Idk, but I really think there is more to this and it is important somehow.

[Free Northman]

I don't think Ghost being different is an R+L=J thing. He is different because he belongs more closely to the Old Gods, and they dont give a toss about the Targs, likewise the AA prophecy seems to be a fire / Rhollor thing rather than associated with the Old Gods.

Not to say Jon can't be AA. Just that when Jon got picked for the wolf that is different the Old Gods did not sense he is 'ice and fire' but something specific to their own prophecies (that Jon would be in the NW? that he is the Last Hero?)

If any wolf should have been closest to the Old Gods, it should be Summer, seeing as Bran is the greenseer and all.

The whole Ghost issue has puzzled me from the start, to be honest.

You'd think the weird white wolf with the red eyes would belong to the sorceror among them, while the powerful black wolf would belong to the Black Crow.

[Shaggydog Stark]

If any wolf should have been closest to the Old Gods, it should be Summer, seeing as Bran is the greenseer and all.

The whole Ghost issue has puzzled me from the start, to be honest.

You'd think the weird white wolf with the red eyes would belong to the sorceror among them, while the powerful black wolf would belong to the Black Crow.

Thank you for reading my thoughts. That has always confused me too, but I reconcile myself with the argument that Jon's song is the song of ice and fire. :)...so he gets the white wolf that looks like a weirwood. :dunno:

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I don't think they were old enough nor together as pack long enough for an alpha to be established. Well, that's true for other canis. lol

Not quite sure about that. Jon and Ghost meets Arya and Nymeria in a hallway at Winterfell. As Jon and Ghost are leaving, Nymeria goes to follow Ghost, but stays because Arya wouldn't leave, I can't remember what she was doing. . And, when Shaggydog attacked Maester Luwin, it was Summer who made him stop. I think Lady would have definitely been the tail among the wolves, as Sansa is so meek, with Grey WInd as the Alpha being that Ghost would set himself apart from them.

[kissdbyfire]

Not quite sure about that. Jon and Ghost meets Arya and Nymeria in a hallway at Winterfell. As Jon and Ghost are leaving, Nymeria goes to follow Ghost, but stays because Arya wouldn't leave, I can't remember what she was doing. . And, when Shaggydog attacked Maester Luwin, it was Summer who made him stop. I think Lady would have definitely been the tail among the wolves, as Sansa is so meek, with Grey WInd as the Alpha being that Ghost would set himself apart from them.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree in part. But I think that behaviour (Summer and Shaggy) has more to do with the kids' ages. I can't elaborate now, I'm on my way to the airport. But I'll address this as soon as I can.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree in part. But I think that behaviour (Summer and Shaggy) has more to do with the kids' ages. I can't elaborate now, I'm on my way to the airport. But I'll address this as soon as I can.

You may be onto something here. I thought perhaps with time the wolves themselves might have developed the necessary skills but your idea is better. I can't wait for you to expound your theory.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree in part. But I think that behaviour (Summer and Shaggy) has more to do with the kids' ages. I can't elaborate now, I'm on my way to the airport. But I'll address this as soon as I can.

I think that the kids personalities would determine the order of the wolves to some extent. With Robb being the eldest and most disciplined i could see being the alpha, then Nymeria, Summer, Shaggy and Lady last as she was like Sansa, meek and a follower, Ned commented that he had never paid attention to them wolves much, but he could see that Lady was like Sansa in demeanor.

[kissdbyfire]

Hi guys, sorry it took me so long. Here it goes...

Ororo727 , as I said before (and didn’t elaborate on), I do think Summer’s behaviour when he made Shaggydog stop his attack on maester Luwin has to do with Bran and Rickon, and it has to do with the bond between the kids and the wolves. Here is the bit where Shaggydog attacks maester Luwin:

“The darkness sprang at him, snarling.

Bran saw eyes like green fire, a flash of teeth, fur as black as the pit around them. Maester Luwin yelled and threw up his hands. The torch went flying from his fingers, caromed off the stone face of Brandon Stark, and tumbled to the statue’s feet, the flames licking up his legs. In the drunken shifting torchlight, they saw Luwin struggling with the direwolf, beating at his muzzle with one hand while the jaws closed on the other.

“Summer!” Bran screamed.

And Summer came, shooting from the dimness behind them, a leaping shadow. He slammed into Shaggydog and knocked him back, and the two direwolves rolled over and over in a tangle of grey and black fur, snapping and biting at each other, while Maester Luwin struggled to his knees, his arm torn and bloody. Osha propped Bran up against Lord Rickard’s stone wolf as she hurried to assist the maester. In the light of the guttering torch, shadow wolves twenty feet tall fought on the wall and roof.

“Shaggy,” a small voice called. When Bran looked up, his little brother was standing in the mouth of Father’s tomb. With one final snap at Summer’s face, Shaggydog broke off and bounded to Rickon’s side. “

Summer acts when Bran urges him to act.

As to who would be the ‘alpha’, there are two aspects, imo.

1 – I think there wasn’t enough time for that to be established; even if we think in terms of ‘alpha’ in a wolf pack (point 2 below), the wolves would have to be older for a dominance order to be in place.

2 – Wolf experts nowadays are not too keen on the idea of an ‘alpha wolf’ in a pack. They seem to prefer 'breeding male', and even 'breeding pair'. Their contention is that the social and hierarchical behaviour of wolves in packs (especially in the wild) are not anywhere near as simple and are, in fact, much more multilayered than that.

Here is an interesting paper from a (if not ‘the’) leading expert on the subject (Lucyan David Mech):

http://www.mnforsust...lpha_status.htm

Of course, having said all that, I’ll add that these are direwolves in a work of fiction; I have no idea what are GRRM’s plans or ideas regarding the direwolves. He can, literally, go anywhere with it.

:dunno:

[LadyDark]

Yep, a combo of both actually gives us an excellent explanation. The show changed some things. I would rather stick to the books. Okay so I went through ASOS really rapidly and did not find anything about Nymeria being able to do this. Unfortunately, Arya only wargs into Nymeria when she is sleeping so it is a tough one. But I assume since Ghost and Summer can do it then the others must have the same ability. Very interesting stuff.

I would like to see her warging in Nymeria now, when she realizes how to do it with the cat :)

[Queensmoot]

I don't think that direwolves represent the kids futures, but the kids themselves and their relationship to the Stark family, and what the Stark's represent - the Old Gods and the North. They closely resemble the Stark kids in personality, and the further they are from the direwolves the more they lose their identities.

Sansa lost her direwolf when she betrayed her family on the King's Road because she chose Joff over her sister. This brings up an interesting point about Sansa potentially reclaiming her identity, with Lady lost to her forever.

Ghost is different because Jon is not a true-born Stark the way the others are (Ned and Cats kids). At maximum he is their half-brother and far more likely their cousin, so his wolf is apart from the others. At Winterfell he doesn't feel like a Stark, he feels separate from them, but he still is a Stark.

[FanTasy]

My nagging question about the direwolves has to do with a disturbing pattern: if one of their owners separate themselves from their wolf, ignore the signals the wolves give or lock them up / chain them, things turn for the worse.

Sansa separated herself from Lady: she lost her wolf because of something Nymeria did.

Arya chased Nymeria away and becomes ... well, we'll see if she can stay away from the dark side.

Robb separated himself from Grey Wind, ignored all the signals to keep away from the Twins: and both died.

Jon locked Ghost up in the armory. Jon was attacked and may be dead. He reached out for Ghost ... we'll have to wait and see what that meant.

So hopefully Bran and Rickon keep their wolves close to them.