The northmen inside and outside Winterfell. Conspiracy? The GNC - The Grand Northern Conspiracy

[Cydal]

I think there was some kind of conversation at least between Osha and Luwin, something only for "grown ups". I have no proof at all but I think Maester Luwin knew Wex was up there in that tree, they had both been there for some time. I guess Luwin should have known who Rickards wife was so maybe that was what he told Osha, so they could get help from that side of the family.

There would be no reason for Wex to lie to Manderly or Davos about how he found out where Rickon was going, if he followed them or if he overheard makes little difference, so I think there is something else going on with the Wex story. Maybe she talked to him and made some plan that we have not figured out.

Interesting, When I read the part I just assumed Luwin was asking her for the gift of mercy. But that makes sense too. I think they said Wex always stayed downhill of the Direwolf and even if the Direwolf sensed him, maybe they only react if the person has an evil intention towards their owner.

[LadyDark]

I love this threat

I really hope there is something comming up, because I can't stand Boltons in Winterfell and much less Ramsay.

[tze]

Yeah My point is that if it is Umbers outside, they shouldn't be blowing horns since Northmen don't blow horns.

But we've seen Northmen use horns on multiple occasions. They don't use trumpets, but they certainly do use horns.

Her identity is kept hidden for some reason so why not, if we knew this before we would not be surprised if Rickon shows up with a nice army of Skaggs outside Winterfell.

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Ned's mother had to have been from Skagos. If any of the Northmen currently in Winterfell were close cousins to the Stark kids, Roose would have commented on it during his little convo with Ramsay (as evidence that they're trying to screw over the Boltons). For that matter, if any of the Northmen we've yet seen were Lord Rickard's in-laws, somebody would have mentioned it----the Starks are northern royalty, being close kin to them is something any northern House would be bragging about at every opportunity. If she was from a southern House, it would have been mentioned during Robb's sojourn south, since at the very least southern cousins would be potential anti-Lannister allies.

Skagos sounds like the only place left where she could come from which would logically explain why her family hasn't yet been mentioned.

Tze, I am very very impressed with all the details you dug up! Though I don't think that the whole north is in on the conspiracy together at this point, it is very possible that more or less everybody is secretely supporting the Starks already – some houses have joined forces, some houses are still doing their own thing. I would like to see their reaction when they find out about the other loyalists: "Oh, you too? Wanna join our secret Stark fanclub?“

Who wants to bet they have a secret handshake? They've already got the secret password.

I can't decide if we're seeing multiple independent anti-Bolton conspiracies, or if everybody in the North save the Karstarks (and Boltons, of course) are plotting together. We can associate Manderly, Umber, Locke, and Glover (via Robett). But we can also associate Glover (Galbart) with Mormont (Maege), and Mormont (Alysanne) with the hill clans. We know Alysanne was in contact with her mother because she knew her sisters were with Maege. So Alysanne should be in on Maege's plans, and the Glovers should be in on the Mormonts' plans. That ties the Mormonts in with the Manderly conspiracy. We can associate Dustin with Ryswell (since Barbrey was born a Ryswell), and if we can associate Dustin with Manderly (if she was really in the crypts to confirm the missing swords), then we can associate Dustin, Ryswell, Manderly, Umber, Locke, and Glover. The hill clans are tied to the Flints currently in Winterfell, and the hill clans and Alysanne Mormont are probably working together (if not initially, then almost undoubtedly they are by now), so add them to the list. Who else is a factor?

There's no way the Karstarks are in on anybody's plots---Robb killed Lord Rickard and the Karstarks deserted him, so there's no way they'd be trusted. Even Alys was afraid that Jon would hold a grudge and refuse to help her. (Though actually, Alys's actions might cast an interesting light on the rest of the Northern lords' actions; Alys isn't in on anyone else's plans, so if everybody else is working very hard to keep Stannis and the Lannisters from looking at Jon, Alys wouldn't know that. That would explain why she thinks it's logical to run to "the last son of Eddard Stark" for help, where the rest of the North seems to be very consciously trying not to draw attention to Jon.)

Incidentally, the Blackfish made a similar comment to Jaime once and I think he knows about Robb's will, right?

He wasn't at the will signing, but he took off after privately meeting with Edmure, who was at the signing and knows who the heir is. For that matter, the Blackfish was Robb's closest adviser; Robb would logically have discussed who he wanted as his heir with the Blackfish before drawing up the will, so Ser Brynden was probably aware of who the heir would be before Edmure even told him.

In fact, the Blackfish's whole spiel to Jaime makes no sense at all unless you assume he's trying to divert the Lannisters' attention away from Jon. He's going on about how untrustworthy Jon is, on the basis that Catelyn never liked him, yet the Blackfish is saying this to the Kingslayer---i.e., the guy Catelyn foolishly freed in exchange for a verbal promise. He was trumpeting Catelyn's great ability to read people to the guy who is living proof of Catelyn's terrible judgment.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

I think everyone on this topic is too optimistic - only lords who in any way oppose Boltons for now are Manderly and his lot and Mormont/clans/Umbers, if there is some conspiracy it is far more subtle and far less powerful than all houses banding together - otherwise they would have crushed both bolton and frey before they reached Winterfell

[Eyron]

I think they had to wait to get everybody in place, Manderly could not bring his ten thousand men with him to Winterfell, they had to come later when Boltons attention was at the wedding and Stannis approach. If there is an army outside Winterfell it consists of various houses' men and they had to come together first, they would be travelling from all over the north in different weather conditions and speed. They would also have to wait for things to erupt inside Winterfell so Bolton had to get moving, it's been said a few times that Winterfell is almost an impossible siege when defended.

[Glyn Tarvoke]

Some really good points. I just don't know if the Northman are all that great at intrigue. Roose Bolton kept his forces mostly out of combat and is famous for his cunning and people reading skills. If anyone is planning betrayal, they better be careful.

Davos describes Lord Manderly as looking very ill and I agree he's already planned to sell his life dearly.

I wondered also how Wex got to White Harbor. It makes some sense if he got caught by the Umbars. I think Whoresbane is Whoresbane. Maybe the guess a maester should be able to write is correct but maybe also the giant is just how they sign documents. Magic is pretty rare and I don't see where the Umbars wld learn any. For sure, the Umbars are compromised because the GreatJon is a captive and they've got too few men to fight the Boltons. They'd also have to tread carefully.

I think its one of these deals where everyone would like to betray Bolton but no one wants to be first and all the lords are afraid to speak frankly with one another.

Of course, Ramsay's letter to Jon Snow makes it fairly clear the Bolton forces won the snow battle, betrayal or not. I think in a lot of books Barbrey would turn on the Boltons (along with everyone else) but somehow in GRMM's more realistic world the (relatively) good and noble don't always win.

I never considered Barbrey secretly plotting to aid the Starks. It's weird how she talks so freely to Theon but that may just be something of a story aid. I thought she was just buttering up Theon because she wanted something from him, namely how to find the crypts. We don't hear her talking to him after that. Also, Theon would be a good tool for her to pass things back to Bolton, such as tell his son to stop the false bride from crying. The possibility of a betrayal angle was a good catch by some readers.

[Eyron]

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Ned's mother had to have been from Skagos. If any of the Northmen currently in Winterfell were close cousins to the Stark kids, Roose would have commented on it during his little convo with Ramsay (as evidence that they're trying to screw over the Boltons). For that matter, if any of the Northmen we've yet seen were Lord Rickard's in-laws, somebody would have mentioned it----the Starks are northern royalty, being close kin to them is something any northern House would be bragging about at every opportunity. If she was from a southern House, it would have been mentioned during Robb's sojourn south, since at the very least southern cousins would be potential anti-Lannister allies.

Skagos sounds like the only place left where she could come from which would logically explain why her family hasn't yet been mentioned.

Exactly, we would have heard something if she came from any of the houses in Westeros. Someone would have mentioned blood-ties or something along those lines during Robbs advancement south.

I can't decide if we're seeing multiple independent anti-Bolton conspiracies, or if everybody in the North save the Karstarks (and Boltons, of course) are plotting together. We can associate Manderly, Umber, Locke, and Glover (via Robett). But we can also associate Glover (Galbart) with Mormont (Maege), and Mormont (Alysanne) with the hill clans. We know Alysanne was in contact with her mother because she knew her sisters were with Maege. So Alysanne should be in on Maege's plans, and the Glovers should be in on the Mormonts' plans. That ties the Mormonts in with the Manderly conspiracy. We can associate Dustin with Ryswell (since Barbrey was born a Ryswell), and if we can associate Dustin with Manderly (if she was really in the crypts to confirm the missing swords), then we can associate Dustin, Ryswell, Manderly, Umber, Locke, and Glover. The hill clans are tied to the Flints currently in Winterfell, and the hill clans and Alysanne Mormont are probably working together (if not initially, then almost undoubtedly they are by now), so add them to the list. Who else is a factor?

Howland Reed :cool4:

The others have depleted their military powers so I don't consider them major players.

I never considered Barbrey secretly plotting to aid the Starks. It's weird how she talks so freely to Theon but that may just be something of a story aid. I thought she was just buttering up Theon because she wanted something from him, namely how to find the crypts. We don't hear her talking to him after that. Also, Theon would be a good tool for her to pass things back to Bolton, such as tell his son to stop the false bride from crying. The possibility of a betrayal angle was a good catch by some readers.

About Lady Dustin.

Why does she hate (or appear to hate) Manderly? Does anyone remember anything else than her just pointing out to Theon how despicably craven Wyman is?

It could not be that he sent to few men with Robb, she herself sent as few as possible.

Maybe she is siding with Bolton and already made plans with him to let Robb fight himself to oblivion down south and then step in with Bolton to make a new powerbase in the north? And knowing that Manderly is still a threat to their plans makes her grumpy. Why would she share all this with Theon though? It's not like she was lonely and needed a confidant, her brothers were there and other northmen she knew well. She seemed to be on good terms with Roose too.

If she wanted Theon to warm up to her and show her the crypts, was this helpful? I think she scared him more than anything. What she managed to do was to make him feel more like himself again, and the real Theon would not want to help the Boltons or anyone loyal to them.

And why the secrecy? If she just wanted to see the crypts could she not just ask Roose or Ramsay to command him to show her the way or else?

Well maybe she completely lacks social skills.

Or, she is in on the conspiracy with Manderly. After all Ramsay killed Domeric, or so we think.

There's no way the Karstarks are in on anybody's plots---Robb killed Lord Rickard and the Karstarks deserted him, so there's no way they'd be trusted. Even Alys was afraid that Jon would hold a grudge and refuse to help her. (Though actually, Alys's actions might cast an interesting light on the rest of the Northern lords' actions; Alys isn't in on anyone else's plans, so if everybody else is working very hard to keep Stannis and the Lannisters from looking at Jon, Alys wouldn't know that. That would explain why she thinks it's logical to run to "the last son of Eddard Stark" for help, where the rest of the North seems to be very consciously trying not to draw attention to Jon.)

Good thinking. Had she known she would not have interfered, she could have gone to the Umbers instead, a much shorter journey.

[1234567]

I think everyone on this topic is too optimistic - only lords who in any way oppose Boltons for now are Manderly and his lot and Mormont/clans/Umbers, if there is some conspiracy it is far more subtle and far less powerful than all houses banding together - otherwise they would have crushed both bolton and frey before they reached Winterfell

I don't know. Because of the Red Wedding most of the North have either lost men, have family members being held hostage to the Lannisters/Freys or had family members and relatives killed. I think it is very possible that prominent families in the North have banded together to oppose the Boltons and the Freys.

[Kaylee]

About Rickon and Skagos:

I think the theory with Rickon living with his grandmother's family on Skagos is too optimistic. If he was safe in his relatives' house, Manderly wouldn't want him brought back to Westeros until the situation is more stable. And he wouldn't need him smuggled back, he would just send an envoy with and offer an alliance.

I can buy the theory with Ned's mother being a Skagosi, but even if it's true, something is wrong with this place. And why is Davos so afraid? He is an experienced sailor and a smuggler, he knows the difference between rumours and real danger, and he definitely considers Skagos a bad place to go. Really bad.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

I don't know. Because of the Red Wedding most of the North have either lost men, have family members being held hostage to the Lannisters/Freys or had family members and relatives killed. I think it is very possible that prominent families in the North have banded together to oppose the Boltons and the Freys.

well yeah but not this soon

at first they had no news from south, then probably some warbands and Robb's force leftovers have gotten trough (if possible since Moat Cailin is held by ironborn) - they are possibly first news. other possibility is some rivrerlord loyalist sending a raven or 2 before submitting (Rills, WH, FF and Barrowton are the closest to send) - then comes shock, hope that your heir is one of the captives, that your men are alive and well

on the other hand you have vile dog harassing any loyal northmen, ironborn are on the east somewhere (though most of them retreated to kingsmoot)

then comes Roose with his bunch

then suddenly you have to drag your lazy but otherwise awesome wolfskin clad ass to Barrowton to bend your knee

do you have time to plot, forge alliances and summon armies???? or do you come with as many men as you can muster in haste and see what next, see what others do and hope you stay alive.

[Eyron]

About Rickon and Skagos:

I think the theory with Rickon living with his grandmother's family on Skagos is too optimistic. If he was safe in his relatives' house, Manderly wouldn't want him brought back to Westeros until the situation is more stable. And he wouldn't need him smuggled back, he would just send an envoy with and offer an alliance.

I can buy the theory with Ned's mother being a Skagosi, but even if it's true, something is wrong with this place. And why is Davos so afraid? He is an experienced sailor and a smuggler, he knows the difference between rumours and real danger, and he definitely considers Skagos a bad place to go. Really bad.

Maybe they tried and Rickon didn't want to come so they now have to steal him back :)

I agree there is something weird about the place, and about Wex's story, but I think we can say that Rickon (or at least Shaggydog) was at Skagos at some point.

[fassreiter]

That Lady Dustin: I don't know what to make of her. That part about 'The North remembers' was strange. She said it right in front of Roose Bolton, and she is the one who thinks he is this clever manipulative guy and sees everything. If those were her true feelings, why would she talk in such a threatening way in his presence? She seems too smart for that. But then I didn't really buy all of that crypt talk, so she might be up to something.

[Kaylee]

Maybe they tried and Rickon didn't want to come so they now have to steal him back :)

I agree there is something weird about the place, and about Wex's story, but I think we can say that Rickon (or at least Shaggydog) was at Skagos at some point.

I agree that he is on Skagos, I just don't think it's good news...

[Eyron]

That Lady Dustin: I don't know what to make of her. That part about 'The North remembers' was strange. She said it right in front of Roose Bolton, and she is the one who thinks he is this clever manipulative guy and sees everything. If those were her true feelings, why would she talk in such a threatening way in his presence? She seems too smart for that. But then I didn't really buy all of that crypt talk, so she might be up to something.

I think Roose was planning to let the Freys get their due. And either way she did not have to hide that she hated them, it would be stranger if she kept silent and that could rise suspicion. He did send them out first so I think he hoped Freys and Manderly would fight it out and he would be rid of both without getting his hands dirty.

The men inside kept talking about how stupid it would be to go out and meet Stannis when they could just sit inside and let Stannis' host smash itself on the walls, dying of starvation, cold and the snow. He wanted Stannis to lay siege to Winterfell and perish in the attempt.

If Roose had let her in on the "smash Manderly and Freys" plan and Manderly did not object to going out when ordered, Roose would maybe take it that Manderly had not been informed. But the truth could be that Manderly did know but was prepared.

[Stark@heart]

Lady Stark from Skagos. I could buy that. There has to be some reason why she's not been mentioned so far. I've been wondering about her since Ned and Robert's trip down into Winterfell's crypts. With his dad, his brother and his sister together in the crypts, I thought it odd that Mother Stark was never mentioned. I hadn't thought about the "no next of kin" angle. IIRC it's explained that Cateyln's mother was a Whent, so no family to call on there. The Karstarks are the closest kin to the Starks and that's not saying much for family is it. Maybe she was a Karstark or close enough and there was such a scandal that even Old Nan couldn't repeat it. Or... What if she was a Bolton! She went "stark" raving mad and was locked up in Winterfell until her death then her bones were returned, something the Leech Lord might take as an insult. Maybe we'll get a whole backstory as to why Roose was so quick to stab Robb in the back.

Who wants to be in league with Walder Frey? heh, Robb was winning and if given the chance to regroup that Edmures wedding was suppose to give him, he could have taken Tywin Lannister and Tywin knew it. That's why he was so generous with Bolton & Frey and let Gregor and his men become so vicious. Tywin knew he was playing the Game of Thrones, poor Robb, he was fighting for his father's honor and a crown he had a hard time wearing.

I see Roose as a player whose been using Ramsey as his pawn and would be too smart to get caught up in anyone's plot but I think he's overlooked how Ramsey's actions are being held against him. Manderly? He turned out to be pretty hard core, with his Frey baiting and homemade Frey pies. I think he found Rickon and that's what everyone in the north has come together for. Can't wait to see that showdown, how cool can Roose be when his back's against the wall and a huge black direwolfs getting ready to ripe his throat out. I hope Manderly has Roose and his son flayed side by side.

[idreamofpikas]

I don't know. Because of the Red Wedding most of the North have either lost men, have family members being held hostage to the Lannisters/Freys or had family members and relatives killed. I think it is very possible that prominent families in the North have banded together to oppose the Boltons and the Freys.

But isnt it precisely because of the Red Wedding that the various families dont know who to trust. How could you plot openly against the Boltons and KaStarks not knowing who was on who's side. Share the information with the wrong person and you are sending your already weakened forces into a trap. Its now Winter, throwing away lives is no longer an option.

As for the Lady Stark being a Skagosi I dont buy it. Manderlay would have mentioned it to Davos so he would know where to search on the(pretty big) Island, other families would of been aware of the connection so would have checked there themselves, being a distant relative doesnt stop you from betraying someone thats why the Stark kids were meant to stay incognito, Maester Luwin who doesnt beleive in magic would of sent both heirs there albeit seperate routes, if a Skagosi grandmothers family can be trusted why not the great grandmothers family(the Flints), Rickard Stark was an only son heir to the North why would he have been allowed to marry some savage Skagosi bride and if he did marry for love why was he so obsessed in forcing his children into arranged marriages?

[Yeade]

Man, do I love a good conspiracy theory! Kudos to all the contributors, tze especially.

Hungry Wolf, besides the blood debt owed by the Lannisters, Boltons, and Freys to nearly all the northmen as well as the riverlords for the Red Wedding perhaps ensuring any cooperation on the latter's parts is only a temporary measure until enough strength has been marshaled to oust the killers of their kin, I think, narratively speaking, the North must be united under one banner by the end of TWOW or when the Others breach the Wall, whichever happens first. Otherwise, I don't see how a significant fraction of the North's remaining military forces or even general population can be salvaged. Which in turn means the northern houses won't play much of a role in the obligatory final defense of the realm against the ice zombie apocalypse. Personally, I'd find an ending dominated by Dany's eastern or southern contingents quite unsatisfying and am willing to suffer yet another round of positively baroque scheming to forestall this possibility.

To add to Eira's suggestion that Howland Reed be counted among the conspirators, the Brotherhood Without Banners seems to already have plans in motion to 1) free prominent Red Wedding hostages from Lannister custody and 2) retake Riverrun from the Freys. It's plausible Tom Sevenstrings, the BWB's inside man at Riverrun, passes an offer of partnership to Edmure, who then consults the Blackfish.

ETA: Isn't another member of the BWB a leading contender for the hooded man at Winterfell? Harwin, is it?

Several threads on the whereabouts of Brynden Tully have reached a consensus that he's likely on his way to the Vale, where he hopes to contact potential allies (e.g. the Royces) against the Lannisters and raise a fresh army. The Royces, incidentally, may know Alayne Stone is in fact Sansa Stark thanks to Myranda's shrewd gossiping about Jon Snow. Hell, maybe Lady Stoneheart spares Brienne not because of whatever word she screams but to remove Jaime Lannister from the field, depriving his scattered men of clear leadership in preparation for an offensive from the Vale.

All in all, I'd say the groundwork for a major Stark resurgence across Robb's former kingdom, this time with the Vale as open allies, has been laid. Not only is Jon's location known and the contents of Chekhov's will being quietly spread among Robb's (ex-)bannermen, but the probable conspirators have together identified Rickon and Sansa.

Regarding Stannis, the pending attempt by Asha, Theon, the Reader, and Aeron to challenge the kingsmoot and Euron requires Stannis to retain at least nominal command of the North, IMO. However, with the depletion of his southern troops in the campaign against the Boltons, whether by northern design or not, plus the fallout of events at the Wall maybe shaking Melisandre's faith in him, Stannis soon won't have the power to enforce his decisions.

Now that I consider the matter, this seems to be a point in favor of Jon ultimately being de facto King in the North as he's about the only character I can imagine still respecting Stannis's wishes as rightful ruler of Westeros despite Stannis having pretty much nothing to back his claim. I mean, the northmen undoubtedly hold a grudge against the ironborn for Theon's betrayal and the taking of Winterfell, Moat Cailin, etc., so should Stannis be unable to support Asha in her bid to reform the culture of the Iron Islands, who else would be both open to the idea of letting the Greyjoys have a second chance and capable of convincing the pro-Stark houses to agree to a truce with the ironborn? I vote the man, who by dint of stubborn insistence, manages to argue Old Flint and the Norrey around to grudging acceptance of an alliance with wildlings, reminding them of the old Kings of Winter in the process. (Foreshadowing?)

[Eyron]

Yeade, it seems I missed your fine post, I am very sorry!

I have tried to find out about the Vale lords stand on things and I came up with some things that could speak in favour of an extended conspiracy theory... But it is only by judging from their previous loyalty towards the north.

Many of the powerful houses of the Vale are part of the Lords Declarent. And they were trying to get Lysa to side with Robb so they could go to his aid.

The Royces, (First men, related to the Starks) Bronze Yohn knighted Harry the Heir. His bannermen Coldwater, Shett and Tollet.

The Waynwoods, (related to the Starks) Lady Waynwood is Harrys protector. The Hardyngs are bannermen.

House Redfort, (First men) related by marriage to the Royces,

House Templeton, (related to the Starks) a knightly house with a big host.

House Belmore, Marwyn Belmore got degraded from Captain of the guards by Littlefinger. He was put in service as guard to the upjumped Royces of the Gates of the Moon now.

House Hunter.

As far as I know Littlefinger has Corbray, the Royces of the Gate of the Moon (Nestor), Lynderly and Grafton, maybe Sunderland and their bannermen from the Sisters too.

The rest of the Vale seems of uncertain loyalty, and they are bannermen to the Arryns so I guess they will follow the real Arryns, Robert or perhaps Harry the Heir if they have to choose. Unless LF buys more loyalty.

I have a suspicion the Royces know Alayne is Sansa too, and that is why they backed off Littlefinger so meekly. Many of them even turned up at that wedding he arranged, against Littlefingers belief. Their friends the Waynwoods have Harry the Heir who they are guarding most carefully, and perhaps they are anticipating Littlefingers move to have him and Sansa married. And maybe they don't mind at all, it could be their wish too, but LF probably does not know that. If they are playing him it is very subtle so far so he could actually loose this round of the game. I really hope so!

BTW I like your idea about Jon being able to consiliate the houses in the north, throw in the free folk in that and I will be satisfied. Stannis could never do that.

[tze]

Yeade, it seems I missed your fine post, I am very sorry!

I have tried to find out about the Vale lords stand on things and I came up with some things that could speak in favour of an extended conspiracy theory... But it is only by judging from their previous loyalty towards the north.

Many of the powerful houses of the Vale are part of the Lords Declarent. And they were trying to get Lysa to side with Robb so they could go to his aid.

The Royces, (First men, related to the Starks) Bronze Yohn knighted Harry the Heir. His bannermen Coldwater, Shett and Tollet.

The Waynwoods, (related to the Starks) Lady Waynwood is Harrys protector. The Hardyngs are bannermen.

House Redfort, (First men) related by marriage to the Royces,

House Templeton, (related to the Starks) a knightly house with a big host.

House Belmore, Marwyn Belmore got degraded from Captain of the guards by Littlefinger. He was put in service as guard to the upjumped Royces of the Gates of the Moon now.

House Hunter.

As far as I know Littlefinger has Corbray, the Royces of the Gate of the Moon (Nestor), Lynderly and Grafton, maybe Sunderland and their bannermen from the Sisters too.

The rest of the Vale seems of uncertain loyalty, and they are bannermen to the Arryns so I guess they will follow the real Arryns, Robert or perhaps Harry the Heir if they have to choose. Unless LF buys more loyalty.

I have a suspicion the Royces know Alayne is Sansa too, and that is why they backed off Littlefinger so meekly. Many of them even turned up at that wedding he arranged, against Littlefingers belief. Their friends the Waynwoods have Harry the Heir who they are guarding most carefully, and perhaps they are anticipating Littlefingers move to have him and Sansa married. And maybe they don't mind at all, it could be their wish too, but LF probably does not know that. If they are playing him it is very subtle so far so he could actually loose this round of the game. I really hope so!

BTW I like your idea about Jon being able to consiliate the houses in the north, throw in the free folk in that and I will be satisfied. Stannis could never do that.

Bronze Yohn Royce would definitely support the King in the North, from what we've seen of him. Good call on the Waynwood/Templeton/Royce families being cousins to the Starks.

Domeric Bolton was fostered in the Vale with the Redforts, so while loyalty to a Roose Bolton-backed Lannister regime might be possible, loyalty to a regime that backs Ramsay (or that backs Roose with Ramsay as a declared heir) seems extremely unlikely, given that it seems like an open secret that Ramsay killed Domeric. I can see them siding with the Starks because they hate that the Lannisters legitimized Ramsay and that Roose has named Domeric's murderer his heir (Roose tells us that Domeric was close to the Redfort sons).

The Maester of House Hunter, Maester Willamen, is a Frey. However, he's also the son of Bethany Rosby, and is a full brother to Roslin, Olyvar, and Perwyn Frey (and Benfrey, who died at the Red Wedding). All of his full siblings are either Stark loyalists or died because of Walder Frey's pride, so I can see him nudging the Hunters into supporting the King in the North. (Not to mention that the Hunters are Lords Declarant.)

Totally agree that Myranda Royce knows Alayne is Sansa. First, she unambiguously knows that Alayne isn't Littlefinger's daughter; she was making sexual innuendos to Sansa about Littlefinger's "little finger", and women just don't say things like that to other women about their dads. It's gross. And second, there was really no logical reason to mention the Lord Commander of the Watch to Littlefinger's bastard daughter---the goings-on at the Watch don't strike me as prime gossip material for a couple of teenage girls.

I subscribe to the theory that the Blackfish, former Knight of the Gate and great-uncle to Lord Arryn, has been hiding out in the Vale and gathering support for Jon as King in the North. (Who but the guy who practically raised LIttlefinger would be able to beat Littlefinger at his own game?) Littlefinger very much believes he's got the Lords of the Vale under his thumb, but I think he's in for a bit of a surprise.

[Eyron]

Yeah I thought Myranda was trying too hard to become friends with "Alayne". I mean girls like to talk in confidence but she was really pushing it. She dropped some info on the Redfort kid too, who was in love with Mya, Mychel Redfort was forced to marry a Royce. So I guess we know the Redforts allegience from that.

I have wondered some time about when Olyvar will turn up again, he was kept away from the RW and haven't been heard of since IIRC. If he is not locked up somewhere I guess he could sow some bad feelings within the Frey camp.

And now LF is no longer sitting safely up in the Eyrie. He's on the ground surrounded by people who wants to get rid of him, including Sansa. She knows LF wants Sweetrobin dead and he is her cousin after all, she suspects he is being poisoned (not the crazy-mouse attacking a bear poison, I'd like to say before anyone comments on that) and she has learnt so much from LF about deceit and how to play the game. She will find a way to break free of him and walk out, and hopefully it will be over his dead body.