The northmen inside and outside Winterfell. Conspiracy? The GNC - The Grand Northern Conspiracy

[Eyron]

Well, I for one relish the thought of the North finally getting sneaky. It seems every major house has it's secrets and subterfuge:

Tyrrels: The Whole Renly becoming king thing

Dorne: Secret pact between The Prince and Viserys

The Vale: Death of John Arryn

Lannisters: I don't have the time or the patience to list is all.

So finally the North is getting in on the party! Better late than never...

And the North did not cast the first stone, just the one to get even... This is also why I like the idea of the grand plot, they will let the foes fall to their own schemes, they hardly have to lift a finger :)

this all sounds wicked awesome. northern conspiration with the vale. woot!

as for rickon, i can believe that he, shaggydog, and osha went past the dreadfort. that was the last place anyone was looking for him and it is possible that they were occupied with something else. like rounding up men for the sack of winterfell. kinda like what pippin said in one fo the lotr movies "the closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."

:D

I thought about this when I read this chapter!

Where will the Boltons least expect them to go? Beneath the walls of the Dreadfort of course! They wont even be looking...

[tearloch]

I do like the idea of a Manderly attempt at retrieving Rickon failed. Somewhere it was theorized (is that a word?) that Ned's mother may be from Skagos, since there is literally no mention of her or her family anywhere. If Rickon is being sheltered by his grandmother's kin, then maybe they refused to turn him over to Manderly...thus prompting Manderly to enlist a smuggler to sneak the boy away, as his plans require the proof of Rickon and Shaggy in the flesh....it makes sense.

I also like the idea of the Northern conspiracy temporarily teaming up with Stannis based on common goals, but not really being "with" his cause. I imagine they would use Stannis to help defeat the Boltons and the Freys in the north. They may also stay with him long enough to finish off the Freys in the Riverlands. At that point, the would tell Stannis where to go:

"Lord Stannis, the Iron Throne awaits you that way. But the North is no longer subject to the Iron Throne. You may go in peace, accepting this truce between us, or you will die here today. The North has one king, and his name is Stark!"

[tearloch]

Another question related to this thread as well as the status of the remaining northern army in the Riverlands:

Did Roose leave any contingent of men to hold the Neck at Moat Cailin after taking the IronBorn from it? I don't recall if it was mentioned.

If not, that could open the door for the northern army left in the Riverlands to be rallied and come to the aid of the grand conspiration in the north, or to be working on plans to end the Freys at the Twins.....just a thought.

[wvlr]

I'm not that sure about a "Grand North Plot", but it is pretty clear to me that all the Southern (Mainly Freys) forces in Winterfell are dead meat. They might not realize it yet (Dead Men Walking) but that is what they are. The simple fact is that "Winter is Here" and fighting or not fighting, once they leave Winterfell, they will not survive. The only way that they could survive, is if they had help from the Northerners. Which they will never get.

It will not be a matter of Northerners killing Southerners, It is just Northerners watching Southerners, that can't handle it - die.

Sure they will kill some, but it is going to be more for revenge than necessity, as they would mostly all die anyway.

GRRM, puts a lot of history in these books. Hitler and Napoleon were not the first to attack Russia only to learn that "Winter is Coming".

Stannis has a little of the same problem, but thanks to Jon's advise, his Northerners are at least "trying" to help him.

That said, then there is the "Manderly factor", I am pretty sure that in one of the aDwD chapters it said tha Manderly brought all or most of the food. I think that we saw that Roose was careful, to only eat the same things that Manderly ate, but what happens IF Manderly leaves with ALL his men, to supposidly attack Stannis, taking all his "good" food with him, and leaving only poisoned food behind. It leaves Bolton and his loyalists, only the option of dying from eating poisoned food or dying. from starving.

Meanwhile, Manderly and his men drive the Freys into the holey lake toward Stannis. Frozen Freys all ready for the Manderly Oven.

[tze]

Another question related to this thread as well as the status of the remaining northern army in the Riverlands:

Did Roose leave any contingent of men to hold the Neck at Moat Cailin after taking the IronBorn from it? I don't recall if it was mentioned.

If not, that could open the door for the northern army left in the Riverlands to be rallied and come to the aid of the grand conspiration in the north, or to be working on plans to end the Freys at the Twins.....just a thought.

I'm not sure if Roose did leave a contingent at Moat Cailin, but even if he did, anybody he left there will probably be so busy hiding from the pissed-off poison-hurling crannogmen (remember what happened to the Ironborn stuck there!) that I doubt they'd be capable of harassing an army coming up the causeway.

I also like the idea of the Northern conspiracy temporarily teaming up with Stannis based on common goals, but not really being "with" his cause. I imagine they would use Stannis to help defeat the Boltons and the Freys in the north. They may also stay with him long enough to finish off the Freys in the Riverlands. At that point, the would tell Stannis where to go:

Before Stannis leaves the Wall, he tells Jon to keep Val safe. Jon says he will, and Stannis jokingly asks if he needs to get Jon to swear before a weirwood. Jon doesn't swear before a heart tree, and look what he ends up doing: he sends Val into the Haunted Forest, a place crawling with wights, to meet up with Tormund. Jon did not swear before a weirwood tree, and he broke his promise. Somehow, I doubt Stannis got the hill clans or Alysanne Mormont to swear allegiance before a weirwood tree. The moral of the story being, failing to get Northmen to swear things before a weirwood tree is a mistake.

As a side note, remember how the southerners think of the North? Pretty much nobody south of the Neck even contemplates the idea that Bolton can't hold the North. Jaime, Kevan, the Tyrells; even Littlefinger assumes Bolton will hold the North until the Sansa/Harry plan is ready. Connington's apparently basing his plan to get control of the North for Aegon on the theory that he can get the treacherous Boltons to turn against the Lannisters; yet that plan only works if the Boltons can deliver the North in the first place, which we know they can't (and never could).

It's like everybody in the South is so obsessed with the "power" of the Iron Throne that they've totally missed the fact that the entire North just does not care who the Iron Throne "puts in charge". To the South, the North is supposed to be all sewn up. Then we switch perspectives to the Lords of the North, and holy crap, the idea of the Iron Throne dictating the Northmen's allegiances, the idea of Bolton ever being in charge, suddenly becomes laughably naive. That's why a Northern conspiracy to basically fuck up all the southerners' carefully laid plans would be so delicious---because it's obvious to readers that the North can't be ruled by anyone but a Stark, but the southerners just can't conceive of what being a Stark means in the North.

[Eyron]

I do like the idea of a Manderly attempt at retrieving Rickon failed. Somewhere it was theorized (is that a word?) that Ned's mother may be from Skagos, since there is literally no mention of her or her family anywhere. If Rickon is being sheltered by his grandmother's kin, then maybe they refused to turn him over to Manderly...thus prompting Manderly to enlist a smuggler to sneak the boy away, as his plans require the proof of Rickon and Shaggy in the flesh....it makes sense.

It has been discussed in this thread, but probably other places too. I have a strong feeling that Lady Stark indeed was a Skagosi, exactly because of what you say, where else could she be from? Had she been from any other Westerosi house she should have been mentioned, or relatives should have some forth during Robb's advancement south.

I also like the idea of the Northern conspiracy temporarily teaming up with Stannis based on common goals, but not really being "with" his cause. I imagine they would use Stannis to help defeat the Boltons and the Freys in the north. They may also stay with him long enough to finish off the Freys in the Riverlands. At that point, the would tell Stannis where to go:

"Lord Stannis, the Iron Throne awaits you that way. But the North is no longer subject to the Iron Throne. You may go in peace, accepting this truce between us, or you will die here today. The North has one king, and his name is Stark!"

:D

I really like this idea! Stannis surrounded by northmen, with the Neck at his back... There is only one place to go and that is south.

[wvlr]

Before Stannis leaves the Wall, he tells Jon to keep Val safe. Jon says he will, and Stannis jokingly asks if he needs to get Jon to swear before a weirwood. Jon doesn't swear before a heart tree, and look what he ends up doing: he sends Val into the Haunted Forest, a place crawling with wights, to meet up with Tormund. Jon did not swear before a weirwood tree, and he broke his promise.

Actually, the way that I remember it is:

Stannis tells Jon to keep the "Princess" safe. Jon had previously told Stannis many times, Val was not a "princess" So when Jon said OK, it ment nothing, because, he had already told Stannis that Val was not. Jon even thinks something along that line. It is much better than the Frey "mayhaps" line as it would be accepted by most anyone. Although Stannis would have been pissed if she had died. But Jon broke no prommise.

[tearloch]

It has been discussed in this thread, but probably other places too. I have a strong feeling that Lady Stark indeed was a Skagosi, exactly because of what you say, where else could she be from? Had she been from any other Westerosi house she should have been mentioned, or relatives should have some forth during Robb's advancement south. :D I really like this idea! Stannis surrounded by northmen, with the Neck at his back... There is only one place to go and that is south.

I really hope the little "slip" by the Mormont girl will come back again. I truly love the idea of hearing several more times the words

"The North only has one king, and his name is Stark!"

[tze]

Actually, the way that I remember it is:

Stannis tells Jon to keep the "Princess" safe. Jon had previously told Stannis many times, Val was not a "princess" So when Jon said OK, it ment nothing, because, he had already told Stannis that Val was not. Jon even thinks something along that line. It is much better than the Frey "mayhaps" line as it would be accepted by most anyone. Although Stannis would have been pissed if she had died. But Jon broke no prommise.

Eh, I think it can go both ways.

If I leave the girl with you as well, do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?”

She is not a princess. “As you wish, Your Grace.”

“Do I need to make you swear an oath before a tree?”

“No.” Was that a jape? With Stannis, it was hard to tell.

The discrepancy between their idea of Val's title is certainly there, but I think it's worth noting that Jon's exact words are "As you wish", not "I swear to keep the princess safe". Not to belabor the point, but I do think the juxtaposition of, on the one hand, mentioning the need for a weirwood tree in the promise Jon makes to Stannis, and on the other, mentioning a weirwood tree with Mors Umber and possibly the other Northmen--- it could be foreshadowing the Northmen intending all along to turn against Stannis, if Stannis didn't get them to swear vows before heart trees (and he hasn't yet met up with Mors Umber in person, so there was no way for him to ensure Mors swore anything before a weirwood).

[idreamofpikas]

because it's obvious to readers that the North can't be ruled by anyone but a Stark, but the southerners just can't conceive of what being a Stark means in the North.

So if the Starks all die in the next book the North becomes a democracy and throws off the shackles of Lordship?

The average peasant doesnt give a shit who they are serving or dying for in battle. I'm sure the English felt exactly the same way about being ruled by a non-Englishman and then came the romans, the saxons, the normans and later the germans.

Its one thing fighting till the death for freedom but its batshit crazy to do the same because you want to be ruled by one specific family.

The Starks are not that different from any of the other ruling families in Westeros. The Westerlands and the Reach moved on after the Casterlys and the Gardeners. Even within the North when the Starks conquered it(like the Marsh kings in the Neck) didn't go on fighting afterwards and just accepted the new rule.

Readers perceive them differently because the majority of the story had been introduced through their eyes.

[Eyron]

I don't think the smallfolk are issue here. It's the major lords, the minor lords and houses that have any power that are concerned. The smallfolk will be ruled by whoever, but it is the military forces that can not be ruled by just anyone.

For one lord to take over and rule in peace, the other lords need to accept this new rule. And this is not going to happen, they will all want a piece of the pie and will end up in the same situation as in the south.

Unless there is a division of power so the former kingdoms are emancipated, and a council for common matters are in place. That could work for the north too, if there are not any unknown reasons for the Starks to be liege lords (some mystical aspects we don't know of yet).

However, at this point even the smallfolk might have a stake in the war. Current ruler is Roose Bolton, and no one wants to be ruled by him (and Ramsay). The Starks had their people's interests in mind, they were not tyrants to the smallfolk. If Winterfell had not been burnt they would be in winterstown with a lot of food stored to last them a long way through winter.

[idreamofpikas]

The Starks had their people's interests in mind, they were not tyrants to the smallfolk. If Winterfell had not been burnt they would be in winterstown with a lot of food stored to last them a long way through winter.

But WInterfell was burned down and it was largely down to the Starks not leaving enough protection. They also took most of the men right before the last harvest to fight in a war and in some cases never to return. The Starks are just like any other Lords, sure there are extreme examples like Ramsay who hunts down the smallfolk or Doran who refuses to go to war which will cost the smallfolk their lives but by and large the Lords look after number one.

Right now the biggest draw the Starks have going for them is Ramsay Bolton. And the biggest draw for Roose would be peace which all the smallfolk and some of the Lords must want after a costly 2 years.

[Eyron]

Well unfortunately what the smallfolk want has little bearing on the politics of the realm, and this goes for the North too.

I agree that Ramsay is a big reason for anyone to ally with the Starks, but I am not so sure that Roose can offer enough to change the opinion to his benefit, precisely because Ramsay is the heir. I think this weighs heavier than the Starks lack of protection before the sack, during which many were murdered and had their hard earned stock of food destroyed by Ramsay.

I think they would rather have things restored to the old setting, for some continuity in their lives, and a predictable rule ensures that. Even if they are not happy with the Starks they know what they get with them, and drawing from history they probably think a Stark would try to minimise their suffering as much as possible. Even if this is not necessarily the case (we don't know which Stark will come to restore Winterfell and how that Stark will act) I think that this is the way the smallfolk would approach it.

With the Boltons in power all bets are off, especially under these circumstances with winter descending and the supplies limited more than ever.

But it is all speculation, we will never know these things I am sure.

[MtnLion]

sure there are extreme examples like Ramsay who hunts down the smallfolk

and burns down Winterfell

or Doran who refuses to go to war which will cost the smallfolk their lives but by and large the Lords look after number one.

Don't forget that a woman could travel by herself safely on the King's Road when a Stark was in power.

[idreamofpikas]

Don't forget that a woman could travel by herself safely on the King's Road when a Stark was in power.

You could also go for a night out and leave your castle unlocked without worrying about it being burgled while you were out :drool:

[hotweaselsoup]

and burns down Winterfell Don't forget that a woman could travel by herself safely on the King's Road when a Stark was in power.

stark naked, to boot! (no pun intended)

[Eyron]

stark naked, to boot! (no pun intended)

:D

Admit it. It was so intended

I am a sucker for puns... I can't help myself, if there is a possible pun, I have to write it. (and then make the inevitable excuse for it...)

[PrinceHenryris]

Moat Callin - no matter who holds it, doesn't stand a chance if the Crannogmen don't like the holder.

[Sword of the North]

I'd love it if the most of the Northerners are in on a plan to get Jon to be their King.

Manderly could want to get Rickon back just to make sure there is always a Stark in Winterfell, while Jon goes out to war.

[idreamofpikas]

Moat Callin - no matter who holds it, doesn't stand a chance if the Crannogmen don't like the holder.

Based on what?

The Ironbron quite comfortably held Moat Cailin but only lost it down to Euron pulling out most of the troops and the Boltons wanting to retake it. The Crannogmen with their poison darts were an inconveniance at best.