Various Questions

[deloscielos]

I have a few questions.. hoping you all can help! Spoilers for any who haven't completed SoS

1) It is revealed that Lysa poisoned Jon Aryn after being told to do so by Petyr. He also told her to write the letter to Lady Stark

- Did Cersei even know that Jon Aryn knew that Joff wasn't Roberts son?

2) I remember Ned Stark saying "I know the truth Jon Aryn died for"

- Is that really why Jon Arryn died? Or did Petyr have something else in mind?

3) Lord Hosted kept repeating "tansy" on his death bed.

- Is that the "tansy" Lysa was referring to? Along with the moon tea to stop the birth? If so, would that mean that Hoster felt remorse for his actions?

Thanks in advance - i'll have more questions when they come up!

[Blangadanger]

1. Not sure.

2. The reason Arryn died was because Lysa was blinded by her love for Petyr, wasn't so happy about her marriage with Arryn, and was promised by Petyr that a Lannister/Stark conflict would allow him to be wed to her (at some point in the future). I don't believe Ned knew anything about Lysa and Petyr's plan. Petyr used his knowledge of Robert's bastards against Ned Stark in hopes that it would cause trouble for Ned. Supposedly Jon Arryn was investigating Robert's bastards like Ned did, but how much of that is true, I don't know. After Lysa revealed all she knew of Littlefinger's plan, I'm inclined to believe that most of everything Ned determines about Jon Arryn is a lie manufactured by either Petyr or Lysa, and not by Cersei, as we are lead to believe. At the same time however, Cersei is consumed with killing the bastards herself. Littlefinger knows this and uses it to his advantage. Ultimately it ends with Ned getting taken out of the picture, but for what purpose, I'm still not sure.

3. I think you are right about all you assume regarding the late Lord Tully.

[Maky]

This can be a little confusing (as with many other things in ASOIAF), but here is my interpretation on how things went down:

Jon Arryn began investigating about Robert's bastards because as far as I could tell Robert asked him to, wether to make sure they were being taken care of correctly or for some other reason not disclosed at the moment. I think this is why Jon Arryn borrowed that book from Grand Maester Pycelle, to see if the bastard's description fit the Baratheon lineage. I think that this is as far as Jon's research went. I do not think that at the time of his death he was aware of the fact that Robert's "legitimate" children were actually bastards. Petyr convinced Lysa to poison Arryn to create a conflict between Lannisters and Starks that would lead to a series of circumstances in which he could take a leading role in the "game of thrones" (let us not forget that Petyr is an extremely plotting and deceiving person). Ned's assumption of Jon Arryn dying because he knew that Robert's children were actually bastards is only a conclusion he (erroneously) came to. You can see why he would think that Cersei would have Arryn poisoned if she had discovered he knew this truth. When Ned is told that Arryn may have died because of a poison called "Woman's Tears", it reinforces even more the theory he has (we know now that the poison's name was accurate, but because of Lysa, not Cersei).

As for Lord Tully and "Tansy", yes, Tansy is the pet name he had for Lysa, and the things he says while delirious are about him having Lysa drink the moon tea to abort the baby, this is why he said "You can have more babes" or something like that. Lysa's stint with Petyr resulted in pregnancy, and Lord Tully saw to it that it came to an end, before wedding her to Jon Arryn who needed a wife who was fertile. Lord Tully knew for a fact that Lysa was fertile, and if I remember correctly it is implied that Arryn knew of Lysa's abortion, which is why the marriage was mutually loveless.

[deloscielos]

Thanks for the input!

If tansy was a pet name for Lysa, you would think that Cat would have known what he was talking about when he was muttering on and on about it on his death bed. Unless I'm mistaken, I thought that she never found out what he was talking about. She even asked other members of the castle household and they know nobody by the name of tansy. If it were her pet name, I'm sure somebody would have known. Unless of course I missed something.

[Chise]

Thanks for the input!

If tansy was a pet name for Lysa, you would think that Cat would have known what he was talking about when he was muttering on and on about it on his death bed. Unless I'm mistaken, I thought that she never found out what he was talking about

no, "tansy" isn't a pet name. It just happens to be the main ingredient in the "moon tea", and thats why his dying mind probably kept floating that word up to his head. At one most coherent moment he mumbles "You'll have others... sweet babes, and trueborn"

Considering Lysa's future child-bearing ending in many still~births and couple miscarriages, perhaps he felt that FIRST moon tea was what "ruined" her child-bearing ability, if you will (Littlefinger did claim her virginity after all...)

PS: because I have no life, just looked it up! "Tansy" flower was apparently very popular in Middle Ages as high doses were used to induce abortions

[richardya]

Why do you all assume that Petyr killed John Arryn to cause conflict between the Starks and Lannisters?

The Starks were not in Kings Landing and he did know that Ned would be the new hand. I would imagine either he wanted to be hand himself or he just wanted to rule the Eyrie.

[Blangadanger]

Richardya, I guess it's mostly because of what Lysa did regarding the Starks. First she sent a letter to Catelyn (certainly knowing Eddard would learn of it) about the Lannisters killing her husband. Then later, when Catelyn brought Tyrion to the Eyrie, she professed that it was him that did the deed. While your supposition that Petyr wanted to be the hand may be true, why did he ask Lysa to bring the Lannisters into it? It could be that he assumed Tywin would be made the hand after Arryn's death and wanted Ned to come to King's Landing to expose the Lannisters as corrupt power players, but it's clear to me that he wanted Ned out of King's Landing as soon as he arrived (by working against him with Cersei).

[Maky]

I'd say that Petyr probably knew within a 85% chance of being right that Ned was going to be the new Hand. He obviously must've known a) Robert's love and friendship towards him, and B) Robert's resistance to making Tywin Hand. He probably knew he was playing his cards right. After all, he's a character that appears to have incredible amounts of foresight.

[Sandy Snow]

Petyr seem to me to be playing one of the most complex Games in the series so far. With the Jon Arryn Gambit, he engineered the escalation of the Lion/Wolf Feud that started the War, as well as advancing his own standing at Court, which eventually gained him the Vale and control of the last known surviving Stark (a very important piece at this point i think).

So in answer to the first question posed, Petyr needed Jon dead, it didn't matter what Cersei actually knew, only that people thought she might, to put Jon Arryns death at the Lannisters' door.

Ned died because it served Petyr for him to die too. He gained the trust of the Lannisters by serving him up on a platter while putting the blame for his death right back on the Lannisters, plus he got rid of a piece he was struggeling to manipulate (too rigidly honourable), and managed some petty vengeance to boot. I don't think money would come into it really, he is ikely one of the richest people in Westeros considering he had years in charge of the royal purse. Not even Tyrion could unravel the web of transactions he left behind.