Unpopular opinions, more of them

[ARYa_Nym]

Probably much the same as Sansa felt when the Tyrells ditched her.

I really find the Tyrells nauseating. I'm still not sure if they set up Tyrion and Sansa to take the fall for Joff's death, but it wouldn't surprise me.

So for a brief period she did have friends. They weren't true friends but she had them. Arya's friends left her high and dry. Sansa was in a horrible place in KL but at least LF gave her an opportunity for a place to stay( and probably abuse her but that's another subject).

Arya went to Braavos because after the Hound took her she had no where to go. She wanted to go to the Wall but she had no money.

[1234567]

True, it was for such a short period of time I forgot!

The difference is Hot Pie and co were Arya's friends and left her because they too needed to find somewhere they could live and survive. The Tyrells just used her as means to an end and then unlike Hot Pie and Co ditched her and stayed in the same place doing the same things and excluding her entirely.

Edit: also Arya's friends knew she was being taken to her mother at Riverrun. I doubt they would have left her if they thought she was going to be alone.

[1234567]

Sansa doesn't have physical endurance. That doesn't mean she has more phychological endurance than Arya.

I meant Sansa has had to endure more psychological torment than Arya has and Arya has endured more physical deprivation than Sansa has.

Like the poster said before, I don't either one would have survived what the other went through.

[Woman of War]

Now something else:

I really came to like Jon's storyline. In the beginning I found him thoroughly boring, all oaths and vows and that.

I was so glad when Ygritte took care of this aspect. And maybe he can have his fun with Melisandre (urrrggghhhhh), hopefully at least graphically gratitous. But then he developed initiative and creativity.

Right now, in the fifth volume he got really interesting - and he is killed off, what a pity.

But even if I am really sorry, NO please NO UNJon!

We have had enough dead people walking, lurking corpses behind each plot corner!

Next there will be NEARLY headless Ned because Ilyin Payne did not do his job as well as he thought.....

Or Tyrion with an UN-nose because it will be easier for makeup artists in further seasons.......

No, if Jon was saved at the last moment, hm, ok, BUT please not UNDEAD, otherwise stay dead, sorry, no dragonriding or promised Prince or azor ahai or.......for you!

[SeanF]

Sansa has been through hell. As far as she knows, all of her family (apart from Jon Snow) have been murdered. She's been abused by Joffrey, held hostage by his family, threatened with death by Cersei, and then framed for Joffrey's murder by people who befriended her. She's being hunted by Qyburn's whisperers, her Aunt has tried to murder her, and in turn, LF has made her assist in the cover up of LF's murder of Lysa. And, LF desires her.

All in all, for her simply to survive, and to avoid a mental breakdown, has been a real achievement.

[brashcandy]

Sansa doesn't have physical endurance. That doesn't mean she has more phychological endurance than Arya. Just because Arya is generally the tougher one of the two, the more proactive one, doesn't mean she doesn't suffer.

It only means that people like Randyll Tarly will shrug off Arya's suffering because she brought it on herself, by her actions. (Their opinion, not mine.)

Actually, Sansa does have more psychological endurance. What is Arya's reaction to most things that bother her? Fly off the handle, and kill someone, like she did with the NW deserter and by ordering Jaqen to kill some pretty insignificant characters. The reality is that from the time Arya left KL, she was in disguise; she didn't have to be Ned Stark's daughter. Sansa did though, around the very same people who had ordered the death of her father and were keeping her imprisoned.

As for not having physical endurance, maybe not as much as Arya, but come on. The girl endured being beaten daily by grown men, and we cannot know that she would not have survived a perilous journey like the one Arya undertook. It was a lot easier for Arya to fit in as a boy and act like one, because she was smaller with more boyish features and habits. Sansa would have attracted too much attention based on her looks alone - she cannot pass as a boy, but she would probably be able to survive moving around the country if it was based on physical stamina wholly.

[The Sleeper]

They suffered equally in different ways. Arya wouldn't have lasted very long at court, her personality is just not geared to having to deal with the subtle dangers of court life, which is extremely political and personal and you have to watch everything you say and do and be so careful to survive. Unless you are the queen or the king, you have to stifle a LOT of your impulses & personality to survive. Sansa is able to do that. Well, not so good at first but she learns and fairly quickly because it is in her very nature to do so. As Catelyn told Brienne, Sansa was always a lady even when she was a three-year old child, and always wanted to please people and have them like her.

Arya is much better at dealing with in-your-face danger and she doesn't get subtlety at all. Sansa wouldn't have lasted very long in Arya's post-KL conditions. But Sansa is so much more accustomed to working within the accepted social norms for highborn people, whereas Arya rejects all of that. Arya has always had major difficulty in accepting the role that is expected of her in society. She hates it. Because of her youth and her father's indulgence, she could avoid having to face that for a while, and she is orphaned before she has to start facing her expected societal role for real. Her ordeals on the run suit her much more than the ordeals she would have faced at court.

So they both have awesome survival skills, but just in different areas. Neither of them would have survived long in each other's worlds.

I hope this makes sense... I've had a couple of cocktails [hic]. :drunk:

Interestingly enough, Ayra is actively being tought skills that would have been invaluable to Sansa in King's Landing; to create an entirely new persona, to command her responces at a conscious level, to read through what people are saying into what they actually mean. She is also very charismatic, travelling down the kingroad, with the BwB and as Cat in Braavos people seem to take an almost universal liking to her (with notable exceptions) to the extent that some develop a protective attitude toward her.

Sansa survived in KL because she was a valuable hostage and because of her claim after Robb died. I think the point of her suffering to the reader is to show her preconceived notions and belifs being, in some instances literally, beaten out of her. Add to that the fact, that her protectors in KL are the Hound, a dwarf and a fool. In many ways her situation is the biggest cliffhanger in the series, as it is unclear how much she trusts in LF, if that trust is growing or lessening and to what extent she wants ot emulate him.

It seems to me that their greatest difference now is the way they deal with the situations they find themsleves in. Sansa tries to accept and adapt, while Arya invariably tries to change them often by escaping and of late by escaping from herself. Two very different roads leading to the same place and Martin only knows where they will lead next.

On a side note. Think ADWD Arya in COK Sansa's place in KL (they would be at about the same age). Whose survival would you be worried about then?

Sorry for highjacking your thread.

[Woman of War]

But no, great post, just an Other!

[LordBloodraven]

Guys, both Sansa and Arya suffered physically and psychologically, but differently. No need to grade their sufferings.

[headtrip_honey]

My unpopular opinion:

I just can't bring myself to care about Jon. At all.

I don't dislike him. I just "nothing" him.

[Grail King]

Sansa has been through hell. As far as she knows, all of her family (apart from Jon Snow) have been murdered. She's been abused by Joffrey, held hostage by his family, threatened with death by Cersei, and then framed for Joffrey's murder by people who befriended her. She's being hunted by Qyburn's whisperers, her Aunt has tried to murder her, and in turn, LF has made her assist in the cover up of LF's murder of Lysa. And, LF desires her.

All in all, for her simply to survive, and to avoid a mental breakdown, has been a real achievement.

Let's not forget stripped naked in front of people and possible gang rape and or death by the people of KL if not for Sandor.

[Grail King]

Guys, both Sansa and Arya suffered physically and psychologically, but differently. No need to grade their sufferings.

:agree:

[Hound's She-wolf]

Guys, both Sansa and Arya suffered physically and psychologically, but differently. No need to grade their sufferings.

Yes.

I don't understand why people are arguing about who suffered more.

What I see is that there are some people who seem to be minimizing what one or the other went through based on whether on not they like the character.

[Lemon Cake]

What I see is that there are some people who seem to be minimizing what one or the other went through based on whether on not they like the character.

Got it in one.

In fact, this whole conversation reminds me of this confession on tumblr, with which I wholeheartedly agree. (And I direct that as much at myself as at anyone else, since I've been guilty in the past of taking sides, too.)

[Hound's She-wolf]

Got it in one.

In fact, this whole conversation reminds me of this confession on tumblr, with which I wholeheartedly agree. (And I direct that as much at myself as at anyone else, since I've been guilty in the past of taking sides, too.)

Yes, that is great.

On this thread, people who admit to not liking Sansa seem to think she is eating lemoncakes and knitting instead of being emotionally and physically abused, and it seems some of them think she hasn't suffered enough, that the pink princess needs to be raped or taken down another rung or two. Why does her innocence and passiveness annoy you so much? Because what she does is not what you'd do?

Arya has also suffered but in a different way, she reacts to her surroundings differently because she is a different personality. Doesn't mean she has suffered more or less, just differently.

[1234567]

I don't understand why people are arguing about who suffered more.

Yep I think that's my fault.

I posted the unpopular opinion that Sansa had suffered as much (if not more than Arya).

I actually like both characters though!

[LordBloodraven]

Sandor should stay dead or live the rest of his life as a monk in the Quiet Isle.

I don't think that Doran Martell is a good plotter, if for 17 years, he based his revenge on a hypothetic marriage between his daughter and a pretender to the Iron Throne (who wasn't even aware of that). He doesn't seem to care about Targs.

Rhaegar Targaryen with all his mystique is responsible for the disastrous situation of Westeros. "There must be another one, the dragon has three heads", fine, but did you need to "abduct" the betrothed to the Stormlord and pissing two Great Houses, while honeymooning for 9 months.

Robert Baratheon is certainly the most useless and despicable man in Westeros: in his youth, he's a ferocious warrion who inspires loyalty with his charm and skills; when he becomes king, he's just a fat drunken sot who doesn't care about his realm. Even Henry VIII and Edward IV cared about their people. I don't know for who to worry more: the drunken moron or the 7 kingdoms.

[Alexia]

Guys, both Sansa and Arya suffered physically and psychologically, but differently. No need to grade their sufferings.

:agree:

What I see is that there are some people who seem to be minimizing what one or the other went through based on whether on not they like the character.

:agree:

I like them both a lot with Sansa as my favorite. I never understand this need to pump one up by denigrating the other. They both had really shitty lives and suffered horribly. Is it really necessary to downgrade the psychological trauma of sexual and physical assault, or watching innocents being tortured to death, to pump up a favorite character?

[Woman of War]

I realize that I somehow like the anticlimactic bittersweet endings:

Tyrion NOT getting Casterly Rock, NOT killing Cersei, finding another purpose in life

Sansa NOT getting back as heiress of Winterfell, let alone queen but finding the quiet happy life she wants as, say, a blacksmith's wife,

Daeneris NOT sitting on the Iron Throne,

Aegon being fake,

Sandor leaving the Quiet Isle to kill his brother only to return there in the end, finding his peace of mind.............

Sounds boring, I wonder....No there is so much plot potential in it, so much blood and heroism and courage until all important deeds are done and the world is saved.

But there will be no rewards for the protagonists, only sadness and disaster and maybe some wisdom.

No, I don't like revenge plotting for the sake of blood spilling, Cersei will scorch herself, no valonquar needed, I like a gripping plot, apocalypse included, but no typical fantasy ending. RL history doesn't end either, after the war is before the war.

Or should I read Stephen Pinker "the better Angels of Our Nature" to become a little more optimistic. Or should I start to favor the more martial solution to finally end all wars? ( worked so well in RL)

You realize perhaps that I am taking people literally if they tell they want to end the Sansa - Arya debate. I have my favorite too but I am not telling and no one will guess......

[Ofaelol]

And can I say as much as I love a good discussion on Sansa and Arya, shouldn't this discussion have its own thread? I was going to post an unpopular opinion, but it feels a bit out of place here. 90% of the posts are about something else :mellow:

Unpopular opinions:

1) Syrio is dead and never coming back

2) Sansa will never fall in love with Sandor