OWS- what happens next?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Okay, apparently today is for "direct action". Why don't they stage coordinated "breakdowns" by cars driven by protestors on all bridges and tunnels into and out of Manhattan?

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Baltimore will likely be forcebly cleared Friday night. The square they are occupying has a ralley all ready approved for Saturday by a group bringing aweness to pancreatic cancer.

I personally think the Occupiers should make a 24 hour concession for the ralley.

If they were to move camp before Firday night, they might be able to avoid violence and arrest.

[Verboten]

Baltimore will likely be forcebly cleared Friday night. The square they are occupying has a ralley all ready approved for Saturday by a group bringing aweness to pancreatic cancer.

I personally think the Occupiers should make a 24 hour concession for the ralley.

If they were to move camp before Firday night, they might be able to avoid violence and arrest.

The protestors in Halifax(?) actually helped the organizers clear the square for the Rememberance Day ceremony and voluntarily left several days before, though they kept up their protesting. I see no reason why those in Baltimore cannot do the same.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Scot, they tried that on the Brooklyn bridge and 700 were arrested.

I think they are doing the right thing right now.

But so much for all the people predicting that the attack on Zucotti would stop the momentum of the movement. The action going on today is huge.

Unfortunately, I won't be able to participate in Philly's today. Philosophy calls.

Yeah, hipsters in NYC blocking traffic and deliberately disrupting the lives of ordinary people just trying to earn a buck is going to earn them lots of sympathy.

http://www.reuters.c...E7AE0CS20111117

New York has what -- 8 million people or so? 99% of 8 million is... 7,920,000, give or take a few. But from the article I saw, we've got only "hundreds" of protestors. Which means the protesters certainly aren't the "99%".

And 1% of 8 million is 80,000. So it seems to me like the 1% alone outnumber the protesters at least 100-1. Instead of the "99%", maybe the protesters should call themselves "1% of the 1%." It'd be more accurate.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

The protestors in Halifax(?) actually helped the organizers clear the square for the Rememberance Day ceremony and voluntarily left several days before, though they kept up their protesting. I see no reason why those in Baltimore cannot do the same.

I hope this is the way it goes down. People tend to get so wrapped up in their own issues, they forget about the bigger picture.

[Tyria]

The protestors in Halifax(?) actually helped the organizers clear the square for the Rememberance Day ceremony and voluntarily left several days before, though they kept up their protesting. I see no reason why those in Baltimore cannot do the same.

Yeah, the Occupy NS protesters agreed to move to a different park for the Remembrance Day ceremony, and another event. Then the city council voted in secret to enforce a bylaw about illegal camping and the protesters were forcibly removed on Remembrance Day. It's been quite the clusterfuck for the mayor and council since.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/11/14/ns-occupy-nova-scotia-council.html

eta: added link

[awesome possum]

Sometimes, you just gotta fight trolling with trolling.

New York has what -- 8 million people or so? 99% of 8 million is... 7,920,000, give or take a few. But from the article I saw, we've got only "hundreds" of protestors. Which means the protesters certainly aren't the "99%".

And 1% of 8 million is 80,000. So it seems to me like the 1% alone outnumber the protesters at least 100-1. Instead of the "99%", maybe the protesters should call themselves "1% of the 1%." It'd be more accurate.

Right, and Jerry Sandusky is a registered Republican. Why do Republican men love raping little boys so much?

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Well, and FLOW, NYC probably has a higher concentration of 1%ers (as commonly understood) than other places given that (1) it's a national base number that people are usually talking about and (2) NYC cost of living is so high so therefore (3) salaries tend to be higher (e.g., I know from my sister's experience that you can get Executive Assistant (with experience) jobs that start at $70/80K and go up in the six figures, but when she looked for jobs in other cities they balked at paying $45K for the same job and were thinking more on the lines of $35K) and (4) this pushes more people into the 1% (mind you, they are super well-off, but might not be 1% in a different city). That's a long way of saying that I don't think that's a really helpful way of looking at it.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Well, and FLOW, NYC probably has a higher concentration of 1%ers (as commonly understood) than other places given that (1) it's a national base number that people are usually talking about and (2) NYC cost of living is so high so therefore (3) salaries tend to be higher (e.g., I know from my sister's experience that you can get Executive Assistant (with experience) jobs that start at $70/80K and go up in the six figures, but when she looked for jobs in other cities they balked at paying $45K for the same job and were thinking more on the lines of $35K) and (4) this pushes more people into the 1% (mind you, they are super well-off, but might not be 1% in a different city). That's a long way of saying that I don't think that's a really helpful way of looking at it.

Then that should be the epicenter of the OWS movement, right? Heck, from what I've read, a fair number of the protesters there aren't even New Yorkers. They've come from other states to join in. And the best you can get for this action -- the Wall Street in Occupy Wall Street -- to supposedly disrupt business on Wall Street for a day is a few hundred?

Though I'm admittedly just having a bit of fun here, there is actually a point to be made. I think what is happening is that as the tactics of the protestors move further and further from just speaking and assembling, the number of participants will shrink. Because while a much larger number of people may agree with at least part of the underlying complaints, these chosen tactics/methods are keeping them away.

That's the exact opposite of what the hard-line/revolutionary core want/expect. They visualize starting with basic speech and assembly, and then moving to more "direct action". They hope that the response of the authorities to this "direct action" will be to radicalize more and more people, until you have tens of thousands of people willing to mix it up with the police, until things are brought to a head and some radical change effected.

But that's not going to happen. Not in this country, and certainly not yet. Because the vast majority of the population, while recognizing some of the flaws in our system, still have an underlying respect/reverence for it. Even most of those who want more significant change still believe (rightly, I think) they they'd have much more to lose than to gain by blowing it all up. And they tend to believe that voting and less confrontational tactics are the better way to obtain any desired changes.

In other words, I think OWS has way overplayed their hand, like a dysfunctional left-wing version of the Beer Hall Putsch, but they're blinded to that reality by their own perspectives, formed and reinforced within groupthink collectives.

[Just a peasant]

Boston's OWS won a court case. The court ruled that the the city is forbidden to remove their camp sites at least until a December 1st hearing.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

FLOW, I'm not sure I'm following you. Isn't NYC the epicenter of the Occupy movements? And why wouldn't it make sense to protest in a place with a great concentration of wealthy people (with the footnote that a lot of people aren't really taking cost of living into account when they think about such things) if that's the thing you are protesting? And why is it bad for people to travel to protest?

I do agree that if/as protests become violent or more radical, mainstream folks here will likely disassociate themselves with the movement, but really, who knows? Who would have thought even a year ago that there would be violent riots in the middle of London?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Isn't NYC the epicenter of the Occupy movements? And why wouldn't it make sense to protest in a place with a great concentration of wealthy people (with the footnote that a lot of people aren't really taking cost of living into account when they think about such things) if that's the thing you are protesting?

You are 100% correct. My initial post here was a response to Coco's prediction that the direct action today would be "huge". Yet despite OWS being the epicenter, and despite the numbers of homegrown New Yorkers protesting being augmented by people from elsewhere in the country, they only get a few hundred? This is the huge direct action protest?

And why is it bad for people to travel to protest?

It's not. I was simply pointing out that the numbers are extremely low when you consider that they have been augmented by out of state protesters.

This really goes to the question posed in the thread title -- What happens next? Well, if today is any indication, the "direct action" route doesn't look all that productive.

[Ken Stone]

FLOW, I'm not sure I'm following you. Isn't NYC the epicenter of the Occupy movements? And why wouldn't it make sense to protest in a place with a great concentration of wealthy people (with the footnote that a lot of people aren't really taking cost of living into account when they think about such things) if that's the thing you are protesting? And why is it bad for people to travel to protest?

I do agree that if/as protests become violent or more radical, mainstream folks here will likely disassociate themselves with the movement, but really, who knows? Who would have thought even a year ago that there would be violent riots in the middle of London?

You are misunderstanding. FLOW cares deeply about the OWS movement so he is giving them advice to help them succeed at their mission.

[Serious Callers Only]

The organizers will be profiled and placed in no fly lists

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

You are misunderstanding. FLOW cares deeply about the OWS movement so he is giving them advice to help them succeed at their mission.

I don't think anything any of us say here will have any effect at all on the OWS protesters. It won't affect what they do, nor will it affect how they are viewed by the general population. The idea that anything I say here somehow affects whether or not that movement will be successful can only be based on delusions of grandeur.

Whether or not I agree with the goals of the movement (to the extent I can discern them, it's probably about 20% agreement, 80% disagreement) is irrelevant to whether my comments about the chosen methods are correct, or not.

I do admit being a little bit puzzled by the unwillingness of so many here -- who generally are far more supportive of the goals of the movement than I am -- to discuss the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of the chosen tactics. It is as if some folks are afraid to say anything that could be considered critical, even if the criticism is more on the execution than the ideas themselves.

[Galactus]

This is "direct action"? Proudhon would be disappointed. This ain't no general strike!

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

This is "direct action"? Proudhon would be disappointed. This ain't no general strike!

Well, they did call a general strike about what happened in Oakland. Remember that?

Hundreds of thousands of people in Oakland didn't go to work. Garbage wasn't picked up, transit workers didn't show, etc. It was then picked up by sympathy strikes in other major cities. And in fact, tens of millions ended up not going to work, and the government collapsed.

Not.

[awesome possum]

I can't help but feel sorry for some people are are so pants-shitting scared out of their minds that their precious status quo is threatened. Watching anti-OWS reactions in these threads and beyond has been like watching some bizarre and mentally handicapped seven steps program play out.

Police beating everyone in their paths. Stay classy NYPD

“The police officers were beating the protesters with batons, and were also beating the media,” Fields told TheDC.

...

Clear indications that Fields and Cousins were members of the press didn’t stop the NYPD beating.

“Direna had a camera in her hand and I had a microphone, and we were being hit,” she said. “When I fell to the ground I said at one point, ‘I’m just covering this! I’m covering this!’ And the officer just said, ‘Come on, get up, get up,’ before pulling me up by my jacket.’”

“The protesters came up to me right away and asked if I needed any medical assistance. They were actually very kind and helpful. It was the police officers who were very aggressive,” Fields added.

More hippies being arrested. Oh wait, what?

At least 200 people have been arrested so far for peaceful assembly and nonviolent civil disobedience, including retired Philadelphia Police Captain Ray Lewis. "All the cops are just workers for the one percent, and they don't even realize they're being exploited," Mr. Lewis said. "As soon as I'm let out of jail, I'll be right back here and they'll have to arrest me again."

And finally, a live stream of happenings in NYC.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I can't help but feel sorry for some people are are so pants-shitting scared out of their minds that their precious status quo is threatened.

Do you really think these protesters are a legitimate threat to the "status quo"? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the status quo either. But these protesters aren't scary. They'e annoying.

The "status quo" likely was a lot more worried about this a couple of months ago, before all the good will was blown by people crapping in parks and annoying other citizens. The protesters have given the status quo a win. They just don't know it.

[tzanth]

I do admit being a little bit puzzled by the unwillingness of so many here -- who generally are far more supportive of the goals of the movement than I am -- to discuss the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of the chosen tactics. It is as if some folks are afraid to say anything that could be considered critical, even if the criticism is more on the execution than the ideas themselves.

I think many people here agree that the tactics chosen by OWS have been enormously successful. We're all talking about the movement, the medias talking about it, politicians are talking about it; they certainly have done a good job of seizing the national narrative, which at this point, is the main thing that they are after.

ETA:

Do you really think these protesters are a legitimate threat to the "status quo"? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the status quo either. But these protesters aren't scary. They'e annoying.

My point exactly! If they are succeeding in annoying you, they are clearly doing something right! :)