A Daenerys Character Arc Reread II

[Parwan]

ok.

To get on topic!

Let's all make a vow.

Anytime anyone's planning to write anything else about the facts of what happened during the sack of King's Landing... I suggest that instead of posting,

WATCH THE PROMO FOR S2 OF THE HBO SERIES BECAUSE OMFG

Now let's get back to discussing Dany's flawfree/full - depending on your perspective - chapters!!

Okay. I'd be happy to watch the promo. I sent out my last post on the KL sacking business just before I read this post from you. Sorry for the overlap.

[Alkion]

I believe that my argument is more with Alkion than with you. However, I flatly reject any assertion that I'm missing a lot of things that were said. You may think that. I think that you provide no evidence to support such a thought. The fact that Jorah said he saw KL after the sack in no way "excludes much of a Northern presence." I agree with Average Cheese. Jorah never says anything that excludes such a presence. For that matter, we have no reason to assume that all of the Stark forces arrived at the same time. Jorah may have arrived quite a while after the first northerners got to the city. The presence of a banner provides no evidence of anything. Soldiers can run up a banner while a city is being sacked.

I have no desire to argue that Stark's men hung around and opted not to stop the activities of the Lannisters; I also have no desire to challenge this theory. As I clearly stated, the idea comes from one of the links that Alkion provided. One of the posters there puts this forth as a good possibility. Let me restate my main argument with more force: Alkion's assertion that there is a plethora of evidence indicating that the northmen arrived after the sack was concluded is totally bogus. It is badly undercut by the very links he provides. MDIND does a pretty good job of showing this in her quotes from the Citadel link Alkion gives us. Go there yourself if you want to. Perhaps the most telling quote is, "It appears that even as this was taking place, Lord Stark’s host had arrived and he himself appears to have entered the Red Keep only a short time after Aerys’s murder (III: 131)." I challenge anyone to read the full entry and then provide a good reason why the "this" stated there does not include full-scale sacking.

Wow, other than pretty much flat out calling me a liar in your post earlier directed to My Dog..., you seem to intentionally misconstrue a lot of what I say.

I posted the links to other discussions not as direct evidence either way, but as more appropriate avenues for discussion. As for the link that gives a scenario where the northmen stood by and let it happen, it was brought up in that thread as a possibility that "isn't a good one" and largely dismissed.

I myself said the evidence was circumstantial, something you very purposely leave out when you quote me, I noticed. Circumstantial evidence is only valid when there is no direct evidence one way or another. In legal terms, we're talking civil vs. criminal trial evidence here. If you can give a single piece of direct evidence that the Stark forces were there during the sack, then any circumstantial evidence is nullified, but no one has presented any, nor has any of the circumstantial evidence been effectively refuted. For reference, here are the four (+1) pieces of circumstantial evidence I mentioned.

0 (as it is not from the text). The FAQ - MyDog posted excerpts earlier. It only mentions the Lannisters doing the sacking. Were the northmen involved, would Ran (ie. the guy writing a book with GRRM's help) not have mentioned it? As for the assertion that the FAQ "undercuts" my point, I'd like more of an explanation how.

1. Eddard's assertion that he arrived after the Lannister banner was already up, and his very clear assertion that they were the ones responsible. If Eddard was a part of the sack, he is in serious denial. And as for the conquest and sack being different things, they weren't in this case as the forces were let in willingly. In this way, and that way alone, it was similar to Alaric's sack of Rome in 410.

2. Jorah's assertion that he saw the aftermath, after the sack. Been discussed enough in this thread... if he was there during he would have said during.

3. Jamie gives the order to stop the sack as "Ned Stark was leading his men through the King's Gate even then", (note entering the city as the sack is stopping, not being there for it) during his recollection in ASoS. While he is not Tywin and there is no guarantee the sack stopped right then, it seems pretty likely.

4. Barristan, who attempts to decimate Jorah's character in Dany's eyes in the end of ASoS, does not bring anything about the sack, and from the tone of the rest of what he says, had he knowledge of Jorah being at the sack he surely would've used this.

As I said, circumstantial evidence, but a lot of it, and none of it refuted by anything else in the text.

Anyway, MyDog wants to get this back on topic, so I won't be posting on this anymore. I look forward to reading about the House of the Undying, though I'm not sure if I'll post or go back to lurking, as I'm generally not what you'd call a Dany fan in a lot of her chapters from here to the end of ADwD.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

My whole point is that the Ned thing is a test of Dany's maturity and ability to deal with hard/uncomfortable truths. A "queen" who can't come to terms with these things isn't fit to rule Westeros.

Two responses to this: First one is that she is still working under limited information. If she had all the information I think she'd accept it.

Second, I've already posted about. Even if she quite litearlly puts her fingers in her ears and says "LALALA I don't want to know the truth about Ned Stark" I don't think that this would be enough to make her "unfit to rule". Every king of Westeros has had flaws (some more than others), and this one is hardly a dealbreaker. Could it conceivably cause tensions with the north? Maybe or maybe not, depends on how much diplomacy she employs, but it's nothing that a generation's time and a few marriage alliances couldn't fix.

There's clearly a large gap between what she expected from the Qartheen and what she ends up getting, and all throughout this chapter especially, her attitude is that she's entitled to their help.

I think that's a matter of interpretation. When Dany returns from the Pureborn empty handed and isn't happy and smiling, one can interpret that as meaning 1) she's pouting that she didn't get what she demanded or 2) she's disappointed that she wasted all her war funds to no effect. It's all in the attitude the reader applies to the text.

She believes that she's just a curiosity to the Qartheen and that may be true. They enjoy seeing her and her dragons, but that shouldn't (and doesn't) obligate them to provide help in conquering a land with which they have no quarrel. .

You stated that she offered them nothing and I replied saying that was blatantly untrue - clearly she offered them something of large value given that they paied a huge price without even being asked. You've moved the goalposts.

She's not mature enough to understand this yet. It's not that she just wants to be on her way, it's that she's expecting the Qartheen to provide men, money, and supplies to her cause.

She doesn't think they are "obligated" to help her, though. She wishes that they would help her, and she is disappointed that they do not. She does not expect them to help her, as is quite obvious from the last chapter where she clearly states she trusts none of them further than she can throw them. Yet she needs them, because she has no other choices.

Yes, the Qartheen got to see her and the dragons, but they don't owe her anything for this. The hospitality and gifts she receives is more than enough compensation for the "privilege of viewing the dragons." You complain that they "discard" her, but what exactly do they owe her in your mind? The Qartheen have no conflict with Westeros. They have no pressing need to secure an alliance with a woman who has dragon hatchlings, but rules no kingdom. They're getting along just fine as they are.

I don't think they "owe her" anything and neither does Dany. Being disappointed when one does not receive help is not evidence that one believes one is entitled to help. Dany hoped (not demanded, not pouted) that some of the Quartheen might realize that allying with her this early might be a good bargain - that they might take a chance, and have their investments returned with interest. Indeed, Xaro himself representing all the Quartheen realizes the truth of this during a dance with dragons. They were fools for not taking a chance on her (not that it was in any way a predictably safe bet... but wow the returns would have been huge).

And the fact remains that the Quartheen threw tons of money at Dany. Following that, she thought she could push her luck a bit further, but was disappointed. Again this is not evidence she "feels entitled to their help" while "offering nothing".

I don't see any evidence of his jealousy. Can you quote some passages you think show it? When he's visibly jealous of others in ASoS, Dany's PoV remarks on it quite clearly.

I interpreted that Dany was sensing the underlying jealousy when she thought "sometimes he sees me as a woman he wants to bed..." - it was right after he said he didn't trust Xaro and Pyat. Also, in the "Honest Beard" scene, she includes Xaro and Pyat in the list of men she thinks that Jorah was jealous of. That implies to me that whether or not Dany vocalized it at the time, she knew full well that Jorah was jealous of them.

Also like I've been trying to explain, it would seem out of character to me if Jorah was not feeling jealous (disregarding his outward expression), considering what we find out about him later. My reading of the character is that during a clash of kings, his feelings are growing stronger daily and he's having a harder and harder time controlling himself (in all aspects), leading up to the kiss in aSoS Ch1. We absolutely know that he's trying to conceal his feelings this entire time (should have kissed you in the red waste etc). We also know that later, after he's not trying to hide his feelings anymore, basically every man that comes along leads to a disproportionately negative reaction from him. For now, he's better at masking that reaction, and pretending that he only mistrusts them because they are sneaky, not because he's jealous. But he is jealous: both because he's naturally an insecure person, and because he's uncertain of Dany's feelings for him.

*Also want to add: the fact that Jorah is jealous of Xaro, Pyat, Arstan, and Daario does not neccessarily mean that the advice he gives about them is wrong! Quite the contrary in fact. He generally gives very good and usually well-reasoned advice about these men (though in the case of Daario he failed a bit spectacularly by starting with "I don't trust him... his beard alone!" :lol:) The reason that this situation is frustrating for all involved (but I'd say especially Dany) is that Jorah's reactions to these men can be explained as simple "protectiveness" or "doing his duty" - because in outward appearance it's indistinguishable from the jealous reaction.

Okay. I'd be happy to watch the promo. I sent out my last post on the KL sacking business just before I read this post from you. Sorry for the overlap.

Lol, no worries. And you're not required to watch the promo nor is anyone else. I'm just veryveryvery excited...

:commie: STANNISTRUELOBSTERKINGOFWESTEROS!! :bowdown:

[Sevumar]

Second, I've already posted about. Even if she quite litearlly puts her fingers in her ears and says "LALALA I don't want to know the truth about Ned Stark" I don't think that this would be enough to make her "unfit to rule". Every king of Westeros has had flaws (some more than others), and this one is hardly a dealbreaker. Could it conceivably cause tensions with the north? Maybe or maybe not, depends on how much diplomacy she employs, but it's nothing that a generation's time and a few marriage alliances couldn't fix.

I wouldn't post about it or use it as a measuring tool if it was an isolated thing, but it's not. It's indicative of her entire approach to dealing with tough decisions. She delays, denies the truth, runs from her choices, retreats into the lies of her past, and these things usually come back to bite her. This is one of the main reasons why I consider her unfit to rule. This is a fatal flaw in someone with a great deal of power and unless she changes, it's a big red flag that she's headed for trouble.

I think that's a matter of interpretation. When Dany returns from the Pureborn empty handed and isn't happy and smiling, one can interpret that as meaning 1) she's pouting that she didn't get what she demanded or 2) she's disappointed that she wasted all her war funds to no effect. It's all in the attitude the reader applies to the text.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Her thoughts are pretty telling, as is the fact that she never really stops to consider that she doesn't deserve their help, that she truly has little of value to offer these people. There's no indication that she even tried to offer anything concrete, like future trade considerations in Westeros, in return for her help. In her mind, the expectation of help is predicated on the fact that she expects them to see her for who she is in her imagination. Disappointment is one thing, but she genuinely seems shocked that they refuse her, and she's angry about it.

Here are some of her thoughts on the matter:

They never saw me for a queen, she thought bitterly. I was only an afternoon's amusement, a horse girl with a curious pet.

For all the help they offered, I could've gone naked.

They listened, but they did not hear, or care, she thought. They are Milk Men indeed. They never meant to help me. They came because they were curious. They came because they were bored, and the dragon on my shoulder interested them more than I did.

Xaro Xhoan Daxos is a man of gold, she thought, and gold will buy me all the ships and swords I need.

I think her thoughts on the matter are pretty clear. She's angry that they don't think she's that big a deal. She's bitter that the Qartheen were curious about her dragons instead of helping her. She's upset that her bribes (which came from the offerings arranged by Xaro) failed to buy her anything. She's just not very good at playing the game here, but she never really stops to understand that the fault is with the situation itself and her expectations.

You stated that she offered them nothing and I replied saying that was blatantly untrue - clearly she offered them something of large value given that they paied a huge price without even being asked. You've moved the goalposts...

And the fact remains that the Quartheen threw tons of money at Dany. Following that, she thought she could push her luck a bit further, but was disappointed. Again this is not evidence she "feels entitled to their help" while "offering nothing".

What did she offer them? The things that were given to her as offerings, she received because Xaro did the equivalent of putting up a "see dragons for 5 cents" sign outside his manor. These were gifts from individuals, many of them foreigners, not from representatives of Qarth itself.

I don't think they "owe her" anything and neither does Dany. Being disappointed when one does not receive help is not evidence that one believes one is entitled to help. Dany hoped (not demanded, not pouted) that some of the Quartheen might realize that allying with her this early might be a good bargain - that they might take a chance, and have their investments returned with interest.

As I said above, she clearly had very high expectations, almost to the point of not really acknowledging that failure was likely. Her thoughts make it clear that she's very upset that they didn't recognize the status she has accorded herself. She may not have used the language of demands in the audience, but her thoughts make it pretty clear that she believes it's reasonable to expect their help while offering nothing concrete in return. This is delusional.

I interpreted that Dany was sensing the underlying jealousy when she thought "sometimes he sees me as a woman he wants to bed..." - it was right after he said he didn't trust Xaro and Pyat.

I think you're misremembering here. The "sometimes he sees me as a woman he wants to bed" comes at the end of the chapter, when they are discussing developments in Westeros. The thought right after he dismisses Xaro and Pyat is, I am his queen, but I will always be his cub as well, and he will always guard me. This doesn't imply jealousy to me.

Also, in the "Honest Beard" scene, she includes Xaro and Pyat in the list of men she thinks that Jorah was jealous of. That implies to me that whether or not Dany vocalized it at the time, she knew full well that Jorah was jealous of them.

She goes down the list of everyone he warns against, not just those who are capable of being interested romantically. I saw this as a comprehensive list of anyone who might challenge his role as adviser to her, not as romantic competition. Barristan and Belwas are both in that list, and I don't think he even sees them as remote threats for her heart.

Also like I've been trying to explain, it would seem out of character to me if Jorah was not feeling jealous (disregarding his outward expression), considering what we find out about him later. My reading of the character is that during a clash of kings, his feelings are growing stronger daily and he's having a harder and harder time controlling himself (in all aspects), leading up to the kiss in aSoS Ch1.

I don't think he feels jealous about other suitors at this point, because he knows that Xaro's not a real threat for Dany's heart. She doesn't read it in his body language the way that she does in ASoS when the mercenaries show up. He sees her interest and her response when they speak of kissing and sex and he reacts visibly. There's no sign that it's going on in ACoK. He's really only responding to challenges to her safety and his role in ensuring it here.

[brashcandy]

I wouldn't post about it or use it as a measuring tool if it was an isolated thing, but it's not. It's indicative of her entire approach to dealing with tough decisions. She delays, denies the truth, runs from her choices, retreats into the lies of her past, and these things usually come back to bite her. This is one of the main reasons why I consider her unfit to rule. This is a fatal flaw in someone with a great deal of power and unless she changes, it's a big red flag that she's headed for trouble.

Sevumar, I would like some real evidence that Dany in any way really runs from the truth or retreats into some comfort zone of her past. She appears very practical about her chances, and her expectations of help from the Quarteen are not unrealistic. One of the most interesting things about this chapter for me is how desperately she wants to get to Westeros. For someone who is constantly blamed for hanging about in a region where no one wants her, it's shown quite clearly here that Westeros was always a top priority for her. I think she begins to learn in this chapter that one cannot depend on the help of others, but she is certainly not thinking that she is entitled to it. This is the whole point of the bribes in the first place.

In ADWD, where we get to see Dany's actual ruling of a city, it's evident that's she willing to make the hard decisions in order to improve the volatile situation in Meereen. She locks up the dragons, but she doesn't balk when she has to endorse harsh questioning techniques, and she certainly doesn't run from her choices in the marriage to Hizdahr. She isn't happy about it, suspects that it isn't the right thing to do, but as she tells Quentyn, she cannot leave Meereen without seeing it stabilised, and marrying Hizdahr (she believes at the time) is the first step to accomplishing this goal.

Her entire approach with Quentyn is to treat him with respect as a Prince of Dorne, and to pretty much overlook the glaring absence of any tangible help from Doran during all those years when she and Viserys were in exile. She never plays him for a fool, but instead invites him to see the dragons, forcing him to admit that he has come for "fire and blood" and telling him quite honestly that she herself is comprised of these components, and that he would need to be able to meet such challenges.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Her thoughts are pretty telling, as is the fact that she never really stops to consider that she doesn't deserve their help, that she truly has little of value to offer these people. There's no indication that she even tried to offer anything concrete, like future trade considerations in Westeros, in return for her help. In her mind, the expectation of help is predicated on the fact that she expects them to see her for who she is in her imagination. Disappointment is one thing, but she genuinely seems shocked that they refuse her, and she's angry about it.

Here are some of her thoughts on the matter:

They never saw me for a queen, she thought bitterly. I was only an afternoon's amusement, a horse girl with a curious pet.

For all the help they offered, I could've gone naked.

They listened, but they did not hear, or care, she thought. They are Milk Men indeed. They never meant to help me. They came because they were curious. They came because they were bored, and the dragon on my shoulder interested them more than I did.

Xaro Xhoan Daxos is a man of gold, she thought, and gold will buy me all the ships and swords I need.

Dany is more embittered, than angry, and she's realising the hard truth of the matter. I don't know why you're insisting on viewing her words here in such a pessimistic light, but there is nothing to suggest that she has some superior sense of entitlement, and that she expected the Pureborn to simply fall at her feet. She operated very much within the rationale of standard negotiations: I give you something, you give me something in return. Besides the enormity of the bribes she offered them, she herself is a rarity. Quaite makes it clear that magic is returning to the world now because of the dragons, and even the sailor who brings her the news of Robert's death speaks of being amply repaid merely by the sight of the dragons.

As for the quote you offered above, I think the one further on really clarifies the reason Daenerys is so disappointed by her failure to secure the Pureborn's support:

Yet even crowned, I am a beggar still, Dany thought. I have become the most splendid beggar in the world, but a beggar all the same. She hated it, as her brother must have. All those years of running from city to city one step ahead of the usurper's knives, pleading for help from archons and princes and magisters, buying our food with flattery. He must have known how they mocked him. Small wonder he turned so angry and bitter. In the end it had driven him mad. It will do the same to me if I let it.

This observation highlights just what is behind Dany's feelings of anger and resentment at those who have not helped her: fear, not entitlement or sense of privilege. She remembers quite clearly the feelings of impotency and powerlessness that she and her brother experienced with having to beg for help constantly, and knowing secretly that they were being subjected to derision and scorn. But as she goes on to note, she won't let it turn her mad like Viserys, because she has the dragons, and they are everything. She doesn't want to be a beggar, and she doesn't want to have to depend on the generosity of others. We come to see the importance of this harsh lesson in Qarth when she turns away from Pentos and goes to seek her own army.

What did she offer them? The things that were given to her as offerings, she received because Xaro did the equivalent of putting up a "see dragons for 5 cents" sign outside his manor. These were gifts from individuals, many of them foreigners, not from representatives of Qarth itself.

She offered them, along with the bribes, a once in a lifetime chance. I think you're really not grasping the sheer wonder of actually being able to see a dragon. It would be the equivalent I suppose of seeing a dinosaur, or a unicorn. People were happy to give her gifts for such a sight, because really you cannot put a value on having the chance to see the first dragons in hundreds of years. This is not some cheap trick: come and see the woman with two heads! type show, it is a rare and wondrous thing to behold.

As I said above, she clearly had very high expectations, almost to the point of not really acknowledging that failure was likely. Her thoughts make it clear that she's very upset that they didn't recognize the status she has accorded herself. She may not have used the language of demands in the audience, but her thoughts make it pretty clear that she believes it's reasonable to expect their help while offering nothing concrete in return. This is delusional.

As the quote I provided above shows, she was acutely aware that failure was very likely. She may have accorded herself the status of Queen, but she knows that Viserys was called a beggar king for most of his life. She isn't naive in thinking the world owes her something or will give her something because she has now crowned herself, but she also knows that she has a very powerful asset in her dragons. This is the opposite of being delusional.

[Alexia]

Lol, no worries. And you're not required to watch the promo nor is anyone else. I'm just veryveryvery excited...

:commie: STANNISTRUELOBSTERKINGOFWESTEROS!! :bowdown:

I loved this promo but I wish they would show more Sansa in the promos. I get that Arya is the fan favorite, but some of us would like to see Sansa too! Though I guess that I can't complain too much since we got all those delicious riot pictures...

I love the lobster sigil for Stannis too. So much better for him than a flaming heart... watching the burning gods was pretty cool too. :)

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Brash covered what I'd like to have said about the points in general about Dany being "entitled" and "running from the truth" so I'l just add my interpretation of these quotes that you found so damning.

1. They never saw me for a queen, she thought bitterly. I was only an afternoon's amusement, a horse girl with a curious pet.

2. For all the help they offered, I could've gone naked.

3. They listened, but they did not hear, or care, she thought. They are Milk Men indeed. They never meant to help me. They came because they were curious. They came because they were bored, and the dragon on my shoulder interested them more than I did.

4. Xaro Xhoan Daxos is a man of gold, she thought, and gold will buy me all the ships and swords I need.

1 and 3 show disappointment that her plan with the Pureborn has failed. Further, they demonstrate acceptance of the hard truth - that the Quartheen nobles really will not back her cause and view her only as a curiosity.

2. She's upset at herself that she wasted all that money she might have better spent on something else.

4. She adapts from her failure with the Pureborn to a secondary plan - try to convince Xaro to give her ships.

I keep asking this but what exactly would you rather have her do??

And now the Jorah show.

I think you're misremembering here. The "sometimes he sees me as a woman he wants to bed" comes at the end of the chapter, when they are discussing developments in Westeros. The thought right after he dismisses Xaro and Pyat is, I am his queen, but I will always be his cub as well, and he will always guard me. This doesn't imply jealousy to me.

You're right, it was a bit later when she added the romantic context.

She goes down the list of everyone he warns against,

I do'nt have my book on hand but I believe it was Daario, Pyat, Xaro, and Arstan/Belwas in that conversation. Belwas was clearly being bundled up with Arstan as indeed some of the times that Jorah argued against Arstan he also lambasted Belwas. Anyway like I say below romantic interest is not a prerequisite for jealousy. Jorah might very well have been jealous of her spending too much time with her dragons if he was crazy enough (thankfully he isn't).

not just those who are capable of being interested romantically. I saw this as a comprehensive list of anyone who might challenge his role as adviser to her, not as romantic competition. Barristan and Belwas are both in that list, and I don't think he even sees them as remote threats for her heart.

In general, feelings of jealousy are not restricted only to sexual jealousy. Possessive men react negatively to women hanging out with their women friends, or gay male friends, or really doing anything not in their presence. Jorah's behavior when Dany ordered him to scout for her on the docks is a good example of this pattern. (if not proof of such a pattern). He can rationalize/explain it away but really he knows as well as Dany that her bloodriders are fully as able to protect her as him.

Even if he's not going to sleep with her, Arstan is a massive threat to Jorah. Perceiving that, Jorah is clearly more jealous of Dany spending time with Arstan than any of the other men - because he sees him as a very real threat. A threat to Jorah's position as adviser like you say, but also someone who is antagonistic towards him and so he fears Arstan may turn Dany's opinion against him. Of course there is also the rationalization Jorah makes that Arstan is almost certainly lying about who he is, which makes it easier for him to explain away his reactions. Dany sees through this as only being half the truth because his reaction is so extreme. Similarly she comes to realize his protestations against Xaro and Pyat were motivated by more than just her personal safety.

I don't think he feels jealous about other suitors at this point, because he knows that Xaro's not a real threat for Dany's heart. She doesn't read it in his body language the way that she does in ASoS when the mercenaries show up. He sees her interest and her response when they speak of kissing and sex and he reacts visibly. There's no sign that it's going on in ACoK.

I'd argue that she was definitely picking up on those signals, but willing to forgive Jorah a bit of possessive behavior, since she's very sympathetic to him at this point (really, she pities him). Later when it becomes clear there's a pattern of jealous/possessive behavior she reconsiders those signs and adds Pyat and Xaro to the list.

[Alexia]

About Dany and the Pureborn. I think she is going through a learning experience here. She starts off thinking, or perhaps hoping, that it will be as easy as asking. And then she begins to learn that it isn't that easy and that "circus freaks" aren't granted armies to invade a neighboring kingdom. She also starts to learn that she can't get something for nothing, et cetera. At this point it is all learning experiences on her part. Trial and error.

TBH, I think the right choice would have been to return to Vaes Tolorro, or to Illyrio in Pentos*, until her dragons grew and then invade. But that would have been a very boring storyline.

*Illyrio wouldn't exactly be an ideal choice, but I'm just trying to think of whom she might be able to consider an ally that might host her.

[brashcandy]

*Illyrio wouldn't exactly be an ideal choice, but I'm just trying to think of whom she might be able to consider an ally that might host her.

But that would have been a mistake, never mind boring. What she learns is that people don't host you without wanting something in return, or even if they don't, they generally might not take you seriously. In order to truly conquer Westeros, she needs to be an independent power, and in order to be an independent power, she needs to source her own means of support. The dragons might be "circus freaks" to some people in Qarth because of their size and rarity, but as Jorah notes, Xaro would be able to rule the city with just one dragon. Daenerys I think comes to realise just how precious the dragons are, and that finally she has something which will distinguish her from simply being an ordinary beggar Queen.

[Parwan]

Wow, other than pretty much flat out calling me a liar in your post earlier directed to My Dog..., you seem to intentionally misconstrue a lot of what I say.

I posted the links to other discussions not as direct evidence either way, but as more appropriate avenues for discussion. As for the link that gives a scenario where the northmen stood by and let it happen, it was brought up in that thread as a possibility that "isn't a good one" and largely dismissed.

I myself said the evidence was circumstantial, something you very purposely leave out when you quote me, I noticed.

"Liar" is your term, sir, not mine. I did not call you one, and I did not imply that you are one. I say that your "plethora" of evidence is non-existent. Lots of people who are not liars put forth weak arguments. I also do not question your purposes. You say that I "very purposely leave out" your statement that the evidence is circumstantial. How do you know my purposes? Did you read my mind?

The link you posted was:

http://asoiaf.wester...-kings-landing/

There, Ahmrogar says, "I favour scenario two, where they were more or less indifferent to the sack and just kinda hung around. They didn't stop the sacking Lannisters, but they didn't join in the orgy of destruction either." No one really refutes Ahmrogar's opinion. There are a lot of comments along the line of "I got the impression...," "I think...," and "...this would suggest..." A further discussion of this matter belongs on the above thread. I'll go there soon. Anyone interested in the matter can do likewise. I will post no more comments about the sacking of KL on this thread.

[Sevumar]

Sevumar, I would like some real evidence that Dany in any way really runs from the truth or retreats into some comfort zone of her past. She appears very practical about her chances, and her expectations of help from the Quarteen are not unrealistic.

We've talked about this before. She was in denial about the price of MMD's magic. We see instances where she gets very excited about the prospect of learning about her family, but only if it's something positive (tell me about the tournaments Rhaegar won, surely he won some tournaments!). Twice, Barristan attempts to tell her the truth about her father, and once she defers him with "I'm not ready," while the next time it's interrupted with "hey, let's go visit the dragons!" The text explicitly says she "flees" from the choice of recalling Jorah. She declines to do anything about the situation in Astapor or to try to deal with Yunkai until they're on her doorstep, besieging her. Then, she gets upset about her lack of choices and the fact that she has to settle for a sham marriage and a peace that really satisfies nobody.

In ADWD, where we get to see Dany's actual ruling of a city, it's evident that's she willing to make the hard decisions in order to improve the volatile situation in Meereen. She locks up the dragons, but she doesn't balk when she has to endorse harsh questioning techniques, and she certainly doesn't run from her choices in the marriage to Hizdahr.

We've had the torture debate before. She didn't "have" to endorse torture, and she shows herself a poor ruler when she does so. Her marriage to Hizdahr really doesn't represent a good solution to any of the problems and is sort of a last ditch "hail Mary" to try to make things settle down in the city.

Dany is more embittered, than angry, and she's realising the hard truth of the matter. I don't know why you're insisting on viewing her words here in such a pessimistic light, but there is nothing to suggest that she has some superior sense of entitlement, and that she expected the Pureborn to simply fall at her feet. She operated very much within the rationale of standard negotiations: I give you something, you give me something in return.

I think her thoughts make it rather clear that she is angry. She even reflects about how she sees herself becoming angry and bitter the way Viserys did. Then, she consoles herself with the fact that she has dragons. She expects that her engagement in corruption will secure the help of the Pureborn, and she's very disappointed when it doesn't. I also see no evidence that she offered the Pureborn or Qarth anything in the standard sense of negotiations. She had nothing to give.

Besides the enormity of the bribes she offered them, she herself is a rarity. Quaite makes it clear that magic is returning to the world now because of the dragons, and even the sailor who brings her the news of Robert's death speaks of being amply repaid merely by the sight of the dragons.

I think the jury is still out on the value of anything Quaithe says. We don't have any indication about what her motives are and it seems that her statements to Dany are pretty vague and not terribly helpful.

This observation highlights just what is behind Dany's feelings of anger and resentment at those who have not helped her: fear, not entitlement or sense of privilege. She remembers quite clearly the feelings of impotency and powerlessness that she and her brother experienced with having to beg for help constantly, and knowing secretly that they were being subjected to derision and scorn.

But you were saying earlier that she's not really that angry, mostly bitter. Her thinking throughout this chapter seems pretty simplistic and lacking in any real reflection. Part of it is her age, and it's a good demonstration of why we don't want inexperienced teenagers in charge of anything so vast and powerful as a nation. It also hurts that she's lacking a parent or a counselor to help her put these kinds of failures in perspective. You can bet that most parents wouldn't like the attitude that Dany demonstrates here if it was, say, their teenager reacting to not getting into Harvard.

She offered them, along with the bribes, a once in a lifetime chance. I think you're really not grasping the sheer wonder of actually being able to see a dragon. It would be the equivalent I suppose of seeing a dinosaur, or a unicorn.

I think you're overestimating the value of seeing something unique versus giving someone a large amount of money, military supplies, or troops. It would be interesting to see a dinosaur or a unicorn, but ultimately, it's something to take a picture of and a story to share with your kids. It won't put food on your table, run your business, or increase the return on your investments.

1 and 3 show disappointment that her plan with the Pureborn has failed. Further, they demonstrate acceptance of the hard truth - that the Quartheen nobles really will not back her cause and view her only as a curiosity.

2. She's upset at herself that she wasted all that money she might have better spent on something else.

4. She adapts from her failure with the Pureborn to a secondary plan - try to convince Xaro to give her ships.

I think 1 and 3 showcase that she thinks she deserved more than she got. There's a shocking lack of perspective. She's personally insulted by the actions of the Qartheen, even though they're perfectly reasonable in their response to her. I think she's right to be upset that she squandered her money attempting to buy favor and access in the city. What I don't see in her attempt to wrangle ships and gold from Xaro is any understanding that she's trying to get something for nothing. That part hasn't changed.

I keep asking this but what exactly would you rather have her do??

Cut her losses and move on.

In general, feelings of jealousy are not restricted only to sexual jealousy. Possessive men react negatively to women hanging out with their women friends, or gay male friends, or really doing anything not in their presence. Jorah's behavior when Dany ordered him to scout for her on the docks is a good example of this pattern. (if not proof of such a pattern). He can rationalize/explain it away but really he knows as well as Dany that her bloodriders are fully as able to protect her as him.

I don't think that he's being all that possessive here. Most of his actions in ACoK can be explained by his dedication to protecting her as the Lord Commander of the Queensguard. I think even Barristan might have raised an objection about being sent from her side to go search for news at the docks. I don't think we get any measurable cross between the romantic and the protective roles until we're in ASoS.

I've separated the threats into romantic and job security for a reason, because it's some time before we see a lot of open overlap between them. His advice and behavior really starts to suffer as a result of him getting his streams crossed in ASoS. After he tries to make his move in the first chapter, Jorah starts his downward spiral and his performance as an adviser is compromised.

[Alexia]

We've had the torture debate before. She didn't "have" to endorse torture, and she shows herself a poor ruler when she does so. Her marriage to Hizdahr really doesn't represent a good solution to any of the problems and is sort of a last ditch "hail Mary" to try to make things settle down in the city.

I agree with this. The Hizdahr marriage was a really bad idea in general. She didn't negotiate from a position of strength (she had dragons and 10,000 Unsullied!) or try to do so, and it was a disaster that culminated in her (surprise!) attempted murder.

Ordering the torture of the wineseller and his daughters on the flimsy evidence they had (wrong place, wrong time) was downright evil. It was done out of impotence and anger and not in an attempt to make a hard decision.

I think her thoughts make it rather clear that she is angry. She even reflects about how she sees herself becoming angry and bitter the way Viserys did. Then, she consoles herself with the fact that she has dragons. She expects that her engagement in corruption will secure the help of the Pureborn, and she's very disappointed when it doesn't. I also see no evidence that she offered the Pureborn or Qarth anything in the standard sense of negotiations. She had nothing to give.

I tend to agree with this, but I'd be more compassionate towards her in this. She's learning that she has to negotiate and that she can't get something for nothing. Children are used to the idea of getting something for nothing because all their lives they are maintained in a certain standard of living at the expense of their guardians. Dany, to some extent, is still there -- caught in that line between childish innocence/hopefulness and a more adult understanding.

I say to some extent because she shows flashes of great understanding at time too; when it comes to Illyrio and his gifts for example. But she's brand new to this and learning. As long as her mistakes don't get her killed (or those she loves) like they did Robb Stark, there is progress.

[brashcandy]

We've talked about this before. She was in denial about the price of MMD's magic. We see instances where she gets very excited about the prospect of learning about her family, but only if it's something positive (tell me about the tournaments Rhaegar won, surely he won some tournaments!). Twice, Barristan attempts to tell her the truth about her father, and once she defers him with "I'm not ready," while the next time it's interrupted with "hey, let's go visit the dragons!" The text explicitly says she "flees" from the choice of recalling Jorah. She declines to do anything about the situation in Astapor or to try to deal with Yunkai until they're on her doorstep, besieging her. Then, she gets upset about her lack of choices and the fact that she has to settle for a sham marriage and a peace that really satisfies nobody.

Whether she was truly in denial over MMD's price or not has nothing to do with her being competent to rule. At the time she was desperate to save Drogo's life, and naively thought that MMD was not going to harm her, but this lesson has not been forgotten as she constantly thinks of people that she cannot trust in the wake of MMD.

Now you mention Astaphor and the Yunkai. She had good reasons for not being able to deal with them, and none were about running and pushing her head in the sand. She may have been desperate for peace, but the marriage pact with Hizdahr was not a last ditch "Hail Mary". She offered him her hand in marriage if he was able to stop the violence. In Dany's mind, stopping the violence was the first step in being able to rule Meereen effectively, and this is still as pertinent as ever. Hizdahr stood up to his end of the bargain, and Dany fulfilled hers.

You seem to think that she is not allowed to be conflicted or hesistant as a ruler. She is not only supposed to know everything, but also never to show moments of doubt or insecurity. What GRRM shows is that whilst all leaders certainly have these moments (hello Stannis!) Dany, by and large, is pretty decisive about what she has to do, and always keeps the greater good of her people in the forefront of her thoughts.

Not facing the truth about her father doesn't affect her ability to rule. She's already proven she's not like him, so not knowing the reason for the rebellion isn't stopping her from being an effective leader. When she learns the truth it will amount to your father was crazy - which she already suspects - and Ned Stark was not really one of the usurper's dogs, but together he and Robert were fighting to save their lives, and unseat a madman. Case closed. It won't be earth shattering or mark some great upheaval in her policy, and she'll still have reason to be upset over the treatment of her niece and nephew.

We've had the torture debate before. She didn't "have" to endorse torture, and she shows herself a poor ruler when she does so. Her marriage to Hizdahr really doesn't represent a good solution to any of the problems and is sort of a last ditch "hail Mary" to try to make things settle down in the city.

A reckless, poor leader would have done the opposite of what Dany did. Instead of simply questioning the remaining suspects, they would have rounded up everyone in the area and subjected them to investigation also. Or a poor ruler might have stood by and wrung their hands in despair whilst the suspects who might know something were let off the hook. Or a truly poor leader would have unleashed her dragons on the entire city, and let the innocent perish along with the Harpies. Dany's endorsement of the Shavepate methods might not have made her a sympathetic ruler in your eyes, but it definitely doesn't make her a poor one.

I think her thoughts make it rather clear that she is angry. She even reflects about how she sees herself becoming angry and bitter the way Viserys did. Then, she consoles herself with the fact that she has dragons. She expects that her engagement in corruption will secure the help of the Pureborn, and she's very disappointed when it doesn't. I also see no evidence that she offered the Pureborn or Qarth anything in the standard sense of negotiations. She had nothing to give.

She gave what she thought would satisfy them. When it didn't she was upset, and disappointed, but once more this idea that you have that she is somehow raging mad about their lack of assistance is ridiculously false.

I think the jury is still out on the value of anything Quaithe says. We don't have any indication about what her motives are and it seems that her statements to Dany are pretty vague and not terribly helpful.

Why should Quaithe be lying about the impact of the dragons? Other people have commented on the magic returning to the world. The dragons are important in this regard, never mind getting the chance to see one.

But you were saying earlier that she's not really that angry, mostly bitter. Her thinking throughout this chapter seems pretty simplistic and lacking in any real reflection. Part of it is her age, and it's a good demonstration of why we don't want inexperienced teenagers in charge of anything so vast and powerful as a nation. It also hurts that she's lacking a parent or a counselor to help her put these kinds of failures in perspective. You can bet that most parents wouldn't like the attitude that Dany demonstrates here if it was, say, their teenager reacting to not getting into Harvard.

I never said she wasn't angry, I said she felt more bitterness than anger. As for your idea that her thinking is simplistic and lacks any real reflection, the quote on Viserys directly disproves this. Yes, she's a teenager in charge of a nation, get over it already Sevumar. She has advisors and mentors just like any other ruler and she's a lot wiser than most. Dany did not fall into some tantrum and stamp her feet when the Pureborn didn't help her. Anyone would be disappointed, yes, even a little angry, but trying to claim that this shows some larger sign of being incompetent to rule is absurd. What the Quartheen did was personally insulting, and she remembers the days of begging for help from door to door, but she doesn't succumb to such insecurities like Viserys did for instance.

I think you're overestimating the value of seeing something unique versus giving someone a large amount of money, military supplies, or troops. It would be interesting to see a dinosaur or a unicorn, but ultimately, it's something to take a picture of and a story to share with your kids. It won't put food on your table, run your business, or increase the return on your investments.

Please think of the people that come to offer gifts to Dany. These are not people worrying about putting food on the table, and the dragons are a once in a lifetime deal. Xaro doesn't set her up in such lavish surroundings for nothing - he is hoping to get a dragon. That she attempted to bribe some of the Pureborn to help her shows that she isn't naively expecting to get something for nothing, but the truth is that what they would have wanted, a dragon perhaps, was to precious to part with.

Cut her losses and move on.

Which is exactly what she does later on the book after she realises that Xaro is playing his own game. However, she wasn't silly in hoping that they could have worked out a deal together. She simply will not part with one of her dragons, and he refuses to take anything less.

[Sevumar]

Whether she was truly in denial over MMD's price or not has nothing to do with her being competent to rule...

Now you mention Astaphor and the Yunkai. She had good reasons for not being able to deal with them, and none were about running and pushing her head in the sand. She may have been desperate for peace, but the marriage pact with Hizdahr was not a last ditch "Hail Mary".

You asked for examples, so I gave you a list. You and I have discussed this in detail before in several threads in the ADWD forum and here. I agree with what Alexia's saying about Hizdahr, poor decisions in Meereen, and torture. Dany's not a person I'd want in charge of anything more powerful than a student council. Many of the things she must learn are not unique to her, but are things any teenager must learn on the path to adulthood and her behavior is a good example of why we typically don't put teenagers in charge of important things.

You seem to think that she is not allowed to be conflicted or hesistant as a ruler. She is not only supposed to know everything, but also never to show moments of doubt or insecurity.

I didn't say anything of the sort. What I have been saying is that in her time in Qarth, she doesn't show a lot of reflection or depth of thought in her analysis of her failure there. I also said that tracking her attitudes toward certain things that readers know, but Dany finds out throughout the series, is one way I look at her growth as a character. Dany can be a very frustrating character because she moves back and forth between extremes of competence and childish thought and behavior. That's a normal part of development for a teenager, but it has far-reaching implications when you decide that you want to invade, take over, and rule a country.

Not facing the truth about her father doesn't affect her ability to rule. She's already proven she's not like him, so not knowing the reason for the rebellion isn't stopping her from being an effective leader.

Ignorance of history is always a bad trait in a leader. It doesn't matter if you're the King of Westeros, or the President of the United States. It plays a big part in making the electoral process in the US into a circus.

When she learns the truth it will amount to your father was crazy - which she already suspects - and Ned Stark was not really one of the usurper's dogs, but together he and Robert were fighting to save their lives, and unseat a madman. Case closed. It won't be earth shattering or mark some great upheaval in her policy, and she'll still have reason to be upset over the treatment of her niece and nephew.

It may not be a big deal to you, but it represents an important lesson about nuance, understanding people as individuals, and the abuse of power.

A reckless, poor leader would have done the opposite of what Dany did. Instead of simply questioning the remaining suspects, they would have rounded up everyone in the area and subjected them to investigation also. Or a poor ruler might have stood by and wrung their hands in despair whilst the suspects who might know something were let off the hook. Or a truly poor leader would have unleashed her dragons on the entire city, and let the innocent perish along with the Harpies.

I've said everything I want to say about Dany's use of torture at this point. Alexia sums it up nicely. The rest of your argument seems to be that because Dany could've done worse, what she did was OK.

I never said she wasn't angry, I said she felt more bitterness than anger. As for your idea that her thinking is simplistic and lacks any real reflection, the quote on Viserys directly disproves this.

I don't think her thoughts about Viserys disprove a thing. It shows that she knows a long term lack of success is only going to cause those feelings to multiply and she believes she has a better chance of success because she possesses dragons.

Yes, she's a teenager in charge of a nation, get over it already Sevumar. She has advisors and mentors just like any other ruler and she's a lot wiser than most.

She's not in charge of a nation at this point in the book. She's a girl with a couple dozen followers, looking for charity to launch a war of conquest.

Please think of the people that come to offer gifts to Dany. These are not people worrying about putting food on the table, and the dragons are a once in a lifetime deal. Xaro doesn't set her up in such lavish surroundings for nothing - he is hoping to get a dragon. That she attempted to bribe some of the Pureborn to help her shows that she isn't naively expecting to get something for nothing, but the truth is that what they would have wanted, a dragon perhaps, was to precious to part with.

The people who gave her gifts did so because of Xaro's marketing skills, and of course he's hoping to get something. Luckily, Dany is able to keep him at arm's length while trying to take advantage of his position, wealth, and hospitality. My point about putting food on the table wasn't that people were going broke to see the dragons, it was that seeing the dragons isn't something that's likely to help them in other spheres of their life. They weren't receiving any real, tangible benefit from it.

[Alexia]

Ignorance of history is always a bad trait in a leader. It doesn't matter if you're the King of Westeros, or the President of the United States.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. :leaving:

[brashcandy]

You asked for examples, so I gave you a list. You and I have discussed this in detail before in several threads in the ADWD forum and here. I agree with what Alexia's saying about Hizdahr, poor decisions in Meereen, and torture. Dany's not a person I'd want in charge of anything more powerful than a student council. Many of the things she must learn are not unique to her, but are things any teenager must learn on the path to adulthood and her behavior is a good example of why we typically don't put teenagers in charge of important things.

And therein lies the problem. I think Dany is actually quite competent to rule, and had some really good ideas for rebuilding Meereen which weren't able to come to fruition because of the violence. Her commitment to actually hearing cases at court, and trying to make the fairest decisions, her crusade against slavery, and her commitment to Meereen when she could have easily deserted it, all prove that she isn't your average teenager. However, this is a fundamental difference in approach to a character, so I don't think we need to continue beating a dead horse.

I didn't say anything of the sort. What I have been saying is that in her time in Qarth, she doesn't show a lot of reflection or depth of thought in her analysis of her failure there.

Exactly what kind of analysis would you have her do? She knows why people aren't helping her, and she knows she won't get any substantive assistance from them. What other analysis must be done? That her cause isn't worthy, or that she shouldn't seek out help? Well, her cause is worthy, and she chooses not to go to Pentos. I think she's learnt a lot.

I also said that tracking her attitudes toward certain things that readers know, but Dany finds out throughout the series, is one way I look at her growth as a character. Dany can be a very frustrating character because she moves back and forth between extremes of competence and childish thought and behavior. That's a normal part of development for a teenager, but it has far-reaching implications when you decide that you want to invade, take over, and rule a country.

What childish thoughts exactly? Desiring Daario or wanting to rule a city in peacetime? I haven't seen any evidence of childish behaviour when she's in Qarth. Only a resolve to get some support for her campaign in Westeros.

Ignorance of history is always a bad trait in a leader. It doesn't matter if you're the King of Westeros, or the President of the United States. It plays a big part in making the electoral process in the US into a circus.

Again, I'll ask, exactly how would Dany benefit (in Meereen) especially, from knowing the hard truth of Robert's Rebellion? This is not a matter of not being up to date on foreign policy, it's simply a matter that she doesn't know the full truth of what happened to remove her father from office, and when she gets to Westeros she'll most likely be armed with that knowledge. And if she isn't? Well, nearly all of the usurper's dogs are dead or missing. Dany has long since been more concerned with looking after the interests of those in Meereen, not in avenging her father's murder.

Another point that is useful to consider here is the incident with Quentyn. She didn't know about the first Daenerys and the history of the Targs with Dorne too much, but from the moment Quentyn told her of the idyllic water gardens, she realised he was not fit to be one of the heads of the dragons. It's one thing to not know every tidbit of history, and another to be completely ignorant in being able to provide an analysis of a situation. This is the problem that is turning US politics into a circus, and it is not one which Daenerys has. She is very intelligent despite her lack of schooling, and is able to grasp the significance of things very quickly.

It may not be a big deal to you, but it represents an important lesson about nuance, understanding people as individuals, and the abuse of power.

Well it's a wonderful thing that Dany does understand that people are individuals and all worthy of respect and dignity then. If she didn't she wouldn't be trying so hard to end the slave trade, now would she? Neither is she out to abuse the power she has with dragons. So without knowing of the failures of her father, Dany has managed to become an admirable human being. Wouldn't you agree?

I've said everything I want to say about Dany's use of torture at this point. Alexia sums it up nicely. The rest of your argument seems to be that because Dany could've done worse, what she did was OK.

I've said all I can on it too. If Dany had made torture a hallmark of her regime then we would have a problem. She legitimizes it in one instance to find out valuable information, and she doesn't employ it again. If you want to use this as an example that she's running some kind of inhumane regime, you're free to do so.

I don't think her thoughts about Viserys disprove a thing. It shows that she knows a long term lack of success is only going to cause those feelings to multiply and she believes she has a better chance of success because she possesses dragons.

What she realises is that unlike Viserys, she has assets. She may feel like a beggar Queen, but she is not. She's also not willing to sell even one of her dragons to the highest bidder. You can bet that if Viserys had those dragons he would not hesistate to do so. Of course she has a better chance of success because she has dragons, this isn't up for debate.

She's not in charge of a nation at this point in the book. She's a girl with a couple dozen followers, looking for charity to launch a war of conquest.

Ummm, you keep moving back and forth between Qarth and when she's ruling Meereen. I was merely doing the same.

The people who gave her gifts did so because of Xaro's marketing skills, and of course he's hoping to get something. Luckily, Dany is able to keep him at arm's length while trying to take advantage of his position, wealth, and hospitality. My point about putting food on the table wasn't that people were going broke to see the dragons, it was that seeing the dragons isn't something that's likely to help them in other spheres of their life. They weren't receiving any real, tangible benefit from it.

This is ridiculous. Dany isn't taking advantage of Xaro. He was the one who put her up in luxury so that he could sweet talk her into marriage or parting with a dragon. As for the people who brought her gifts, I'm not catching your point. They weren't receiving any real, tangible benefit because they didn't need any real tangible benefit. Seeing the dragons was enough for them.

[Sevumar]

And therein lies the problem. I think Dany is actually quite competent to rule, and had some really good ideas for rebuilding Meereen which weren't able to come to fruition because of the violence.

Well, of course you're welcome to believe she's competent to rule, and I wish you could have the experience of living in a nation under her administration so you can see just how wonderful she is firsthand. For the reasons I've already stated, given her level of character development to the end of ADWD, she shouldn't be queen of anything more than a Homecoming court. I'm not saying she's incapable of having good ideas, but there's a big gulf between ideas and implementation that she hasn't figured out how to span.

However, this is a fundamental difference in approach to a character, so I don't think we need to continue beating a dead horse.

That sounds fine to me.

Exactly what kind of analysis would you have her do? She knows why people aren't helping her, and she knows she won't get any substantive assistance from them. What other analysis must be done? That her cause isn't worthy, or that she shouldn't seek out help? Well, her cause is worthy, and she chooses not to go to Pentos. I think she's learnt a lot.

I was expecting to see a greater understanding of the Qartheen side here, and how negotiations work in general. She might've reflected on the lack of common interests, or the fact that they have no real reason to grant her pleas because she has nothing to give them and they have no conflict with Westeros. She seems as unprepared for negotiating with the powerful of Qarth as the US troops were for functioning in post-invasion Iraq. Instead, she seems to be content to call them names ("Milk Men indeed") and focus on how they just "wont see her as a queen."

What childish thoughts exactly? Desiring Daario or wanting to rule a city in peacetime? I haven't seen any evidence of childish behaviour when she's in Qarth. Only a resolve to get some support for her campaign in Westeros.

I outlined it above. There doesn't seem to be any analysis worthy of a real leader going on here. There's no attempt to understand what things are important to them or what might give them a reason to go to war. She focuses on trying to convince them to believe in her cause instead of selling it to them in terms they might understand and come to favor. She fails to know her audience.

Again, I'll ask, exactly how would Dany benefit (in Meereen) especially, from knowing the hard truth of Robert's Rebellion?

One of her reasons for staying in Meereen is learning to be a queen. She's using it as a training ground for Westeros, since as you say, it is her ultimate goal. This knowledge is of more use to her in Westeros, but there was an opportunity for her to learn it and she ran away from it.

Another point that is useful to consider here is the incident with Quentyn. She didn't know about the first Daenerys and the history of the Targs with Dorne too much, but from the moment Quentyn told her of the idyllic water gardens, she realised he was not fit to be one of the heads of the dragons.

We've discussed Quentyn at length in other threads and we probably will again when we get to ADWD. There's no sense in rehashing that right now.

Well it's a wonderful thing that Dany does understand that people are individuals and all worthy of respect and dignity then. If she didn't she wouldn't be trying so hard to end the slave trade, now would she?

So she shows that understanding and respect by ordering torture and failing to think out a consistent code of justice?

I don't consider Dany an "admirable human being." She has some admirable ideas, and she's a person who shares some of my values, but I don't and probably won't admire her.

What she realises is that unlike Viserys, she has assets. She may feel like a beggar Queen, but she is not. She's also not willing to sell even one of her dragons to the highest bidder. You can bet that if Viserys had those dragons he would not hesistate to do so.

I don't disagree that she's a better person than Viserys because she has more assets and because she's not as mentally unstable as he was.

This is ridiculous. Dany isn't taking advantage of Xaro. He was the one who put her up in luxury so that he could sweet talk her into marriage or parting with a dragon.

She's taking advantage of the comfort and resources he's giving to her without seriously considering his proposal. In the scheme of things, I don't really have a problem with it, given that he is attempting to use her too. But the problem is that people are quick to brand Xaro as someone who schemes and uses Dany, but fail to acknowledge that she is doing the same thing to him.

As for the people who brought her gifts, I'm not catching your point. They weren't receiving any real, tangible benefit because they didn't need any real tangible benefit. Seeing the dragons was enough for them.

Seeing the dragons was enough for those who came to view them, yes, but several posters have tried to hold up the "privilege of seeing the dragons" as something Dany had to offer Qarth in return for its help. First, I pointed out that those coming to see them are private citizens who are paying a toll to do so, and then I made it clear that "seeing" dragons is not a particularly valuable trade good in dealing with Qarth's leadership.

[brashcandy]

I was expecting to see a greater understanding of the Qartheen side here, and how negotiations work in general. She might've reflected on the lack of common interests, or the fact that they have no real reason to grant her pleas because she has nothing to give them and they have no conflict with Westeros. She seems as unprepared for negotiating with the powerful of Qarth as the US troops were for functioning in post-invasion Iraq. Instead, she seems to be content to call them names ("Milk Men indeed") and focus on how they just "wont see her as a queen."

Well as I've pointed out, Dany has a deep seated and perfectly understandable fear of not being taken seriously. I don't know what common interests she could have found with the Qartheen though. They obviously have no interest in Westeros, and any agreement on trade or such might be disingenous at best given that she's going to conquer a nation with no guarantee of success. I think she understands the Qartheen side very well, but that doesn't mean she has to like it. Later when she goes on to rule Meereen and is causing problems in the region, we see how anxious Xaro is to offer her ships to leave the city. It's always been about what suits them, never her. How is failing to be able to negotiate on these terms Dany's fault?

I outlined it above. There doesn't seem to be any analysis worthy of a real leader going on here. There's no attempt to understand what things are important to them or what might give them a reason to go to war. She focuses on trying to convince them to believe in her cause instead of selling it to them in terms they might understand and come to favor. She fails to know her audience.

But ultimately they have no reason to go to war to help her. This is really the point of the bribes, presenting herself as a Dragon Queen, and relying on their favour. It may sound naive, but there isn't much more that Dany could have done. Xaro has all the power in terms of gold and ships, and he wants something from her that she would be a fool to part with. She realises that he will never help her, but her strategy there wasn't to blame. It would have been the same result in another place. Either the people are inspired by her cause, or accept the bribes as efficient payment, but there isn't really anything that she can promise them in the way of tangible benefits by aligning with Westeros.

So she shows that understanding and respect by ordering torture and failing to think out a consistent code of justice?

Do you understand that Dany is trying to operate under extraordinarily violent conditions? It would be nice to have a chance to operate in peace time, and establish these codes of justice that you speak about, but she is constantly having to react to daily outrages. Conquering the city and freeing the slaves obviously created a whole new host of problems, but even then she tries to establish some code by declaring a blanket pardon for crimes committed during the sack. Also, her very act of being visible to her people and trying to deal with their disputes and claims is an important sign that she takes such things seriously.

I don't consider Dany an "admirable human being." She has some admirable ideas, and she's a person who shares some of my values, but I don't and probably won't admire her.

Really, Sevumar! I never would have guessed!

I don't disagree that she's a better person than Viserys because she has more assets and because she's not as mentally unstable as he was.

Hmm, so these are the only ways that she distinguishes herself from her brother? I hope this reread changes your mind then. At least it would be useful to keep an open perspective.

She's taking advantage of the comfort and resources he's giving to her without seriously considering his proposal. In the scheme of things, I don't really have a problem with it, given that he is attempting to use her too. But the problem is that people are quick to brand Xaro as someone who schemes and uses Dany, but fail to acknowledge that she is doing the same thing to him.

She would be an idiot to seriously consider his proposal when it's clear the man does not desire her and is only seeking to use her. Dany isn't actually seeking to manipulate Xaro, but rather to get him to agree to use some of his vast resources at her disposal. She made an honest request, and was met with more manipulation, deceit, and later complete disregard.

[Sevumar]

I don't know what common interests she could have found with the Qartheen though. They obviously have no interest in Westeros, and any agreement on trade or such might be disingenous at best given that she's going to conquer a nation with no guarantee of success.

Like I said, it's a challenge either way, and that's why her reactions don't square with a person who understands that there's a low probability of success.

I think she understands the Qartheen side very well, but that doesn't mean she has to like it. Later when she goes on to rule Meereen and is causing problems in the region, we see how anxious Xaro is to offer her ships to leave the city. It's always been about what suits them, never her. How is failing to be able to negotiate on these terms Dany's fault?

I don't see any deep understanding of the Qartheen side in Dany's behavior this chapter, sorry. Most people negotiate from a position of what suits them, but people who are good at it know how to appeal to the other party's interests. If there's little common ground, as there is here, it's very difficult to come to an agreement.

But ultimately they have no reason to go to war to help her. This is really the point of the bribes, presenting herself as a Dragon Queen, and relying on their favour. It may sound naive, but there isn't much more that Dany could have done. Xaro has all the power in terms of gold and ships, and he wants something from her that she would be a fool to part with.

I've said many times they have no reason to go to war to help her. But I think if she's knowledgeable about Qartheen culture and the low likelihood of getting anything from them, as you claim she is, her reaction is off. A mature person in that position would take the point of view that she tried, the outcome was about what could be expected, and that there's no sense in dwelling on it or being bitter about having little common ground.

Do you understand that Dany is trying to operate under extraordinarily violent conditions? It would be nice to have a chance to operate in peace time, and establish these codes of justice that you speak about, but she is constantly having to react to daily outrages.

Actually, when there is a lack of order, one of the best things you can do is apply a consistent code of law. Instead, Dany makes decisions as the mood strikes her and she's completely lacking any kind of systematic approach. This kind of weakness is especially common in absolute monarchies without a court system.

Conquering the city and freeing the slaves obviously created a whole new host of problems, but even then she tries to establish some code by declaring a blanket pardon for crimes committed during the sack. Also, her very act of being visible to her people and trying to deal with their disputes and claims is an important sign that she takes such things seriously.

A pardon for crimes during the sack is a decent and realistic approach to take to an extraordinary situation like that, but it needs to serve as the beginning point for a system. One of the most helpful things she could have done was spent some time acting as a legislator before playing the magistrate. Having a codified and publicly available reference for the laws of the city would allow her to begin to delegate judicial responsibilities, as she was running into problems with trying to do too much herself. Being visible to people is good, but she's going to have to learn that an effective monarch will need to appear at the times that give her the most impact and to delegate much of the time.

She would be an idiot to seriously consider his proposal when it's clear the man does not desire her and is only seeking to use her. Dany isn't actually seeking to manipulate Xaro, but rather to get him to agree to use some of his vast resources at her disposal. She made an honest request, and was met with more manipulation, deceit, and later complete disregard.

Her marriage to Hizdahr fits that description as much as Xaro's proposal does. And if Xaro doesn't want to place his resources at her disposal, but she's seeking to wheedle them out of him anyway, that sounds like manipulation to me. Like I said, it doesn't bother me all that much, as they're both engaging in it. They deserve each other in this, they just can't come to an arrangement that allows them to be mutually useful to each other in tolerable ways.

[Verboten]

Okay quick question, we know Dany calls Drogo her Sun and Stars, does he call her any (preferably capitalized) nickname?