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What would you do if you got dropped into the 7 kingdoms?


Defengar

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Culturally, Westeros doesn't seem very advanced. You might expect rich Lords to collect paintings, sculpture, books, and to enjoy (and perform) classical music, as they certainly did in fourteenth century Western Europe, but there's little sign of that in Westeros. Culture seems to mean listening to a performance of the Bear and the Maiden Fair.

So far as we know, there's no equivalent of Chaucer or Boccaccio or Dante.

Presumably, there's some culture at The Citadel, but that apart, there's no evidence of universites or monastic learning centres.

I think it might come down to GRRM's atheism-he is unaware of/doesn't want to think about the contributions that religion (even the Catholic Church) has made and thus doesn't show the equivalents of Thomas Aquinas, Peter Abelard, Gratian etc.

Perhaps Boccaccio won't exist until after the Others/Grey Plague/Pale Mare. After all Boccaccio was heavily influenced by the Black Death, and whilst Westeros has experienced Grey Scale plagues in the past, the lack of sunlight will make this one even more severe... Chaucer was in turn influenced by Boccaccio.

We also meet very few scholars. I would expect Margaery to be writing original translations from High Valyrian of the Seven Pointed Star (or other random books and foreign languages), Tyrion to be spending time not only reading and studying dragonlore but writing essays and books about it, Catelyn to be writing books about how a woman's highest purpose is fulfilled through submission to her husband, et cetera. These are things that were very common pursuits during the Middle Ages -- IIRC, Mary I was doing translations from Latin into English and French when she was still in her teens, Katherine Parr wrote a number of books and essays about femininity, etc. It is like the nobles in Westeros do nothing besides hunt and practice swordsmanship.

Exactly. Sansa shouldn't be reading novels about knights and so on! The reason princesses (and Sansa and Cersei were princess in all but name) were so religiously educated was to prevent them from cheating on their husbands and thus putting the kingdom into precisely the situation that Westeros finds itself in now. Religious education was huge in the Middle Ages. Where is the Golden Legend with it's heavy handed praise of chastity? Where are the manuals on good manners that Catelyn would've written (which were actually a lot about sexual morality too)

Also, how is religious faith communicated to the masses? The Faith should be coming out with religious art for that reason alone! Halloween, for example, started out as All Saints Day (or became it, but that was the purpose it served) and there were parades with people dressed up as their favorite saint that featured the way that he died (carrying a cross, arrow through costume, etc.). There should be high holidays that have religious art and observances based around them.

The whole point of religion is the festivals and art that give people diversion and fun! Yet we have not seen anything like this. GRRM's atheism again.

I think the lack of art and artists is actually a really good point. Where are the theater plays, classical musicians, portraits, et cetera? One could almost think that Westeros only has pop songs where bards make fun of the local nobility! The Faith should be coming out with huge pieces of religious art and musical compositions. We hear about puppet shows and mummers, but nobody really seems to patronize it. The only time I recall someone sitting through a performance is Daenerys, and that was naked dancers having sex.

There is also a huge lack of the merchant class in ASOIAF (which is probably why you strange people are resorting to prostitution for survival!). We see bits and pieces but there are no mentions of guilds or anything about these people.

I could easily see Sansa Stark becoming a huge patron of the arts by the end of the story, but Westeros doesn't seem for her to have anything more than pop singers to take under her wing!

GRRM is also a leftwinger, so he is unaware of/doesn't want to think about the contribution of the merchant class made towards ending the Middle Ages.

Lysa patronised music (Marillion) but this is shown as foolish... Does GRRM think that Beethoven's "Ode To Joy" would've been written without someone like Lysa Tully to patronise him?

Actually there is one thing that really irritates me in GRRM and some of these posts hint at it...The Free Cities and Slavers Bay (aside from Slavery which I agree is bad) are repeatedly shown as being degenerate, lazy, stupid and worthless. Volantis would the equivalent of Constantinople or Baghdad and yet Quentyn Martell's description of it (and Tyrions) make you want to cheer when the Dothraki come in a horde of noble-savage righteousness and burn that decadent money grubbing city to the ground.

Now think, repellent as many aspects of Arab and Islamic culture are to me personally, the fact that the Mongol Horde destroyed the Library of Baghdad is one of the greatest tragedies in human history...

It is questionable whether the Renaissance would've been possible if the Turks had destroyed Constantinople, rather than letting the Greek scholars flee to Italy.

and yet GRRM's narrative voice wants you to cheer when Volantis is burnt down?

WTF

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Hook up with Tyrion, fill in his blanks and together we'd plot on how to save the world, Jon and Dany. Then I'd propose to Tyrion he be Hand and I'd be lead scientist of a school of brainiacs. I produce the brainstorming, they figure out how to get it done.

I'd wave my phone around capturing anyones soul (taking their picture) and threaten to burn it in the 7 hells (delete the picture) if they did not do my bidding.

Oh and contact Arya getting a hook with the FM, have Varys and LF killed asap.

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VoodooQueen: Exactly where are you getting your information on Martin's religious and political views? At any rate, I don't think he's explicitly anti-religious, even if he is an atheist. In ASoIaF, the church definitely has far less influence than they did in the real world during medieval times, but there are positive aspects to that as well as negative ones. Sure, the religious culture is somewhat less developed and commoners seem to have trouble understanding exactly what the Septons tell them to believe in, but the Faith of the Seven is far more tolerant of other religions than the Catholic Church was in medieval times, and the people of Westeros have far more religious and social freedom than the people of Europe did in medieval times.

As for why Westeros doesn't have a merchant class, I don't think it's part of any "left-wing" agenda of the author's, but rather because a lot of the story's peasants (as well as some lords) already seem to function as merchants, artisans, or soldiers. In real life, feudal systems had several distinct classes, but in ASoIaF there are only two, and the line between them is much more blurry than it was in real medieval socities. I think Martin did this more to simply things than anything else; the story is already complex enough without readers needing to understand the many details and intricacies of a realistically-layered caste-based socio-political system. Blurring the lines between classes also makes it easier for readers to care about highborn and lowborn characters alike.

In-universe, I think the reason for both the simplified feudal system and for Westeros' lack of cultural advancement is simply because it's a harsher world than ours where even nobles have to do some kind of meaningful work to survive. That's why so many second and third sons of noble houses go off to join the Night's Watch or the Church or the Citadel, why honored knights and lords become sellswords, and why poor Merrett Frey was in danger of becoming homeless despite his high birth. This blurs the lines between the nobles and the smallfolk, and also means that most nobles have less time for artistic or scholarly pursuits, except for those who've specifically devoted their life to being an artisan or a scholar.

Everyone else: Sorry for the off-topic rant! As for what I'd do in the world of ASoIaF... well, presuming I can somehow survive the myriad of diseases my 21st century body wouldn't be prepared for, I'd probably try to join the Citadel and become a Maester. It might be difficult because all my education has been in the social sciences and I don't know if Westeros even has a concept of those, but my odds of finding an occupation there are still far more likely than they'd be anywhere else. Not knowing how to cook, build anything, or use any weapons is really a hinderance in a medieval world.

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Voodooqueen- those little voices in your head are known as "thoughts", and only you can hear them. The reaction you had to Volantis is your own opinion, I cant identify with anything you said about the way the city was represented, such as having the urge to see it violently conquered. Two people can read the same chapter or passage and have very different reactions to it, it would be foolish and borderline arrogant for you to assume that your personal reaction was the only one intended by Martin,

Also, what we see is not the definitive perspective of Volantis, it is the opinions of one eighteen year old boy. The inner monologues of POV characters are flawed all the time, like when Dany talks about the many assassins sent by King Robert following her and Viserys through the Free Cities (who didn't exist).

Its unfortunate you feel the need to attach a political motivation to every element of a book rather than being able to enjoy a story for the sake of being a good story. Its a fantasy epic about knights and dragons, not a religious or economic manifesto. I image having your mind is an exhausting task.

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VoodooQueen: Exactly where are you getting your information on Martin's religious and political views? At any rate, I don't think he's explicitly anti-religious, even if he is an atheist. In ASoIaF, the church definitely has far less influence than they did in the real world during medieval times, but there are positive aspects to that as well as negative ones. Sure, the religious culture is somewhat less developed and commoners seem to have trouble understanding exactly what the Septons tell them to believe in, but the Faith of the Seven is far more tolerant of other religions than the Catholic Church was in medieval times, and the people of Westeros have far more religious and social freedom than the people of Europe did in medieval times.

As for why Westeros doesn't have a merchant class, I don't think it's part of any "left-wing" agenda of the author's, but rather because a lot of the story's peasants (as well as some lords) already seem to function as merchants, artisans, or soldiers. In real life, feudal systems had several distinct classes, but in ASoIaF there are only two, and the line between them is much more blurry than it was in real medieval socities. I think Martin did this more to simply things than anything else; the story is already complex enough without readers needing to understand the many details and intricacies of a realistically-layered caste-based socio-political system. Blurring the lines between classes also makes it easier for readers to care about highborn and lowborn characters alike.

In-universe, I think the reason for both the simplified feudal system and for Westeros' lack of cultural advancement is simply because it's a harsher world than ours where even nobles have to do some kind of meaningful work to survive. That's why so many second and third sons of noble houses go off to join the Night's Watch or the Church or the Citadel, why honored knights and lords become sellswords, and why poor Merrett Frey was in danger of becoming homeless despite his high birth. This blurs the lines between the nobles and the smallfolk, and also means that most nobles have less time for artistic or scholarly pursuits, except for those who've specifically devoted their life to being an artisan or a scholar.

Everyone else: Sorry for the off-topic rant! As for what I'd do in the world of ASoIaF... well, presuming I can somehow survive the myriad of diseases my 21st century body wouldn't be prepared for, I'd probably try to join the Citadel and become a Maester. It might be difficult because all my education has been in the social sciences and I don't know if Westeros even has a concept of those, but my odds of finding an occupation there are still far more likely than they'd be anywhere else. Not knowing how to cook, build anything, or use any weapons is really a hinderance in a medieval world.

GRRM religious and political beliefs are well known, read his blog

I don't think it's an agenda, it's just subconscious. As an atheist, he is unable to see the huge cultural achievements that the Church has made but is only able to see it's intolerance, peadophilia and corruption (all of these things are true, but the Sistine Chapel is still beautiful and I doubt the Enlightenment would have been possible were it not for the Universities, which were originally centred around the Religious Scholasticism of people like Thomas Aquinas).

As a leftwinger, he is unable to understand the positive role of consumer culture, that democracy is unviable without capitalism, so he leaves the merchants and the church out because he can't see how important they are.

It's just an accident

Conversely

If I was writing a novel of such scope (should I have the talent) I would probably leave out the achievements of the brotherhood without banners, deeply spiritual woodswitches/greenseers, everyone would have money (Ygritte speech to Jon=stupidest moment in the book) and there would be no such thing as noble savages... My theoretical novel would also be full of women and readers would wonder why family's seem to have far too many daughters then sons.

Voodooqueen- those little voices in your head are known as "thoughts", and only you can hear them. The reaction you had to Volantis is your own opinion, I cant identify with anything you said about the way the city was represented, such as having the urge to see it violently conquered. Two people can read the same chapter or passage and have very different reactions to it, it would be foolish and borderline arrogant for you to assume that your personal reaction was the only one intended by Martin,

Also, what we see is not the definitive perspective of Volantis, it is the opinions of one eighteen year old boy. The inner monologues of POV characters are flawed all the time, like when Dany talks about the many assassins sent by King Robert following her and Viserys through the Free Cities (who didn't exist).

Its unfortunate you feel the need to attach a political motivation to every element of a book rather than being able to enjoy a story for the sake of being a good story. Its a fantasy epic about knights and dragons, not a religious or economic manifesto. I image having your mind is an exhausting task.

It's just the way Volantis is described...the food is terrible, the people are terrible, it's too hot, it's smells, the Widow of the Waterfront can't wait till Daenerys comes and liberates them...It's made to seem so decadent that it would be no great loss if the Dothraki destroyed it.

Both Tyrion and Quentyn hate the place... and yet it's a democracy (such a common trope in fantasy literature btw)

the only performance we see is Daenerys in Slavers Bay is naked dancers having sex... Everything about the Free Cities and Slavers Bay is made to seem repellent.

Even though it's the Dothraki who genuinely are repellent, since they create the demand for the Unsullied as well as make the interior of Essos unhabitable for civilized people because they enslave people to sell them to Slavers Bay so that Ghiscari can turn them into Unsullied...

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As an atheist, he is unable to see the huge cultural achievements that the Church has made

As a leftwinger, he is unable to understand the positive role of consumer culture, that democracy is unviable without capitalism, so he leaves the merchants and the church out because he can't see how important they are.

There is no way that you can be a functional, mentally sound adult who dresses themselves without assistance everyday and honestly think that this is how human beings work. In the interest of keeping this thread on topic and maintaining my sanity I'm going to chalk it up to high-level trolling and call it a day.

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GRRM religious and political beliefs are well known, read his blog

I don't think it's an agenda, it's just subconscious. As an atheist, he is unable to see the huge cultural achievements that the Church has made but is only able to see it's intolerance, peadophilia and corruption (all of these things are true, but the Sistine Chapel is still beautiful and I doubt the Enlightenment would have been possible were it not for the Universities, which were originally centred around the Religious Scholasticism of people like Thomas Aquinas).

As a leftwinger, he is unable to understand the positive role of consumer culture, that democracy is unviable without capitalism, so he leaves the merchants and the church out because he can't see how important they are.

Again, I can't see him as being that opposed to organized religion considering his Catholic Church analogue is overall a far MORE benevolent institution than the real Catholic Church was. Sure, he's left out a lot of the church's positive achievments, but he's also left out all of their worst atrocities. If the Faith of the Seven was anything like the real medieval Catholic Church they'd have torn down all the weirwoods and executed anyone who worshipped the Old Gods, the Drowned God, the Lord of Light, or any other foreign deity. If he could really only see the evil aspects of religion and none of the good parts, then why does the Faith of the Seven seem so benign overall?

The thing about his left-wing views leading him to ignore the merchant class seems even less likely. Not all left-wingers are extreme left-wingers, and I very strongly doubt that Martin opposes capitalism altogether. Most liberals and democrats don't oppose capitalism, I certainly don't. Also, even socialists and communists recognize that merchants had a major influence on society, they simply perceive it as a negative one.

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Again, I can't see him as being that opposed to organized religion considering his Catholic Church analogue is overall a far MORE benevolent institution than the real Catholic Church was. Sure, he's left out a lot of the church's positive achievments, but he's also left out all of their worst atrocities. If the Faith of the Seven was anything like the real medieval Catholic Church they'd have torn down all the weirwoods and executed anyone who worshipped the Old Gods, the Drowned God, the Lord of Light, or any other foreign deity. If he could really only see the evil aspects of religion and none of the good parts, then why does the Faith of the Seven seem so benign overall?

he's not a militant atheist! so whilst he isn't one of those hamfisted authors who portray religion as evil*, in contrast to the free spirited, nudist, vegan atheist hero-race :ack: ... I just think that his atheism caused him to forget to put in the art patronage, the scholastic philosophers, the pilgrimages, the obsession that the Medieval man or woman had with Christianity (practically every work that has come down to us places great emphasis on faith).

If you asked GRRM whether he was aware of the role that the Church played in art patronage, philosophy and day to day life during the Middle Ages, he would say yes, that he was aware.

But when he comes to write his fantasy series, which is otherwise realistic, he just leaves these things out, not consciously but just because they don't interest him and he would find a character who was as militantly religious as a real Medieval man or woman unsympathetic...

*No doubt the Medieval Church was evil,

BTW according wikipedia. I think GRRM was raised Catholic, which could explain why huge there are a number of celibate orders (The Nights Watch, Maesters and Kings Guard) in Westeros (only the Maesters and Septons should be celibate, unless you count the Night Watch as being like the Knights Templar) and why breaking said vows is portrayed unsympathetically.

The thing about his left-wing views leading him to ignore the merchant class seems even less likely. Not all left-wingers are extreme left-wingers, and I very strongly doubt that Martin opposes capitalism altogether. Most liberals and democrats don't oppose capitalism, I certainly don't. Also, even socialists and communists recognize that merchants had a major influence on society, they simply perceive it as a negative one.

Of course not. GRRM if asked would no doubt reply that yes, he was aware that much Renaissance art would not have been possible where it not for the patronage of people like the Medicis... No doubt GRRM enjoys going to cafes, bookshops and having his wife possessing a wardrobe that doesn't consist solely of grey pyjamas...

But when he comes to writing his otherwise realistic medieval setting, he forgets to mention the merchant class, simply because he doesn't find them as sympathetic or interesting.

Which is a pity because these things were significant in the Middle Ages, and it adds richness and realism to an already brilliant series.

Or we could just say that GRRM, being a low-brow American finds high culture and philosophy scary and therefore these things are absent from Martinworld or portrayed negatively. :devil:

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I would become someones Old Nan, sitting around telling terrifying tales to some Lords small children, basically going through all movie plot lines I could recall. Might have to make a pilgrimage to meet up with Osha and give Rickon a good spanking and become a wolf whisperer as well. Or I could take the services of my rubber bands to any that need a castration or two done. If I could sing I would be referencing all modern songs but since I cant I guess I would make my way to wherever Tom o Sevens is and give him a few lyrics and try to replicate the tunes for him. basically I would survive just being a crazy ol woman who is not really crazy at all ( evil laughter goes here :devil: )

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GRRM religious and political beliefs are well known, read his blog

I don't think it's an agenda, it's just subconscious. As an atheist, he is unable to see the huge cultural achievements that the Church has made but is only able to see it's intolerance, peadophilia and corruption (all of these things are true, but the Sistine Chapel is still beautiful and I doubt the Enlightenment would have been possible were it not for the Universities, which were originally centred around the Religious Scholasticism of people like Thomas Aquinas).

As a leftwinger, he is unable to understand the positive role of consumer culture, that democracy is unviable without capitalism, so he leaves the merchants and the church out because he can't see how important they are.

No, that is not true. I am an agnostic myself but I am perfectly able to value christianity for its emphasis on the individual responsibility, for the new idea after slavery of equality of each human being before God. And I value the catholic church, if for nothing else, for its definitive engagement against death penalty.

And the current pope, a pope is a ridiculous institution for me, has made one remarkable sentence concerning the death of Bin Laden: (paraphrasing) No christian should rejoice about the death of another human being.

But I am a fervent enemy of all religious fundamentalism and fanatism, so I see where christian or other religions are dogmatic when it comes to sexual politics, to the right of choice pro or contra kid for women etc.

But history has gone on and while recognizing the enormous value of religious motivs both from christianity and islam, for art and music, there has been the age of enlightment precisely going along with the development of capitalism. Sure, democracy needs the informed consumer as well as the informed citizen, Foodwatch as well as Wikileaks. You need not be "right-wing" to make the connection. Time has passed over real-socialist experiments and the term "liberal" has a totally different connotation in Europe compared to US.

I believe Martin simply doesn't know much about economical structures at the end of medieval times. And unfortunately he has little understanding of art, handicraft and music. And, btw, so often artists simply used religious topics to hide their more unconventional Ideas about beauty and sexuality. How often the Virgin as replacement of former fertility goddesses or the naked body of Christ or cherubs as homosexual interest were erotically loaded

And do you really think that ladies were taught religion to prevent them from cheating on their royal husbands? The church was the main source of hypocrisy! The relationship between crown and church has always been one of power, a war of ideologies, may it be Frederic II or Henry VIII.

So, yes, there are certain serious deficiencies when it comes to culture from Martin's side, although he took some pains with religions. But certainly not because he is "left-wing" or whatever, ahem, I don't care - although I admit that, being a European, certain conservative ideas about morality and male supremacy would strike me as appaling, so I prefer not to find them in the books.

Sorry, THAT went off topic

Or we could just say that GRRM, being a low-brow American finds high culture and philosophy scary and therefore these things are absent from Martinworld or portrayed negatively

He can't be that stupid

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I believe Martin simply doesn't know much about economical structures at the end of medieval times. And unfortunately he has little understanding of art, handicraft and music.

I tend to agree with this, myself. The merchant class is mentioned in passing (Antler Men, the blacksmith who apprenticed Gendry) but they aren't explored as the smallfolk and the nobles were. Which is kind of a shame, they could have been very integral to the KL arc.

For one thing, Robert should have been in debt to 90% of them. :lol: I remember one War of the Roses king (I think it was Henry VI) who was so in debt to his local merchants that they finally refused to lend him what he needed for a proper Christmas dinner.

although I admit that, being a European, certain conservative ideas about morality and male supremacy would strike me as appaling, so I prefer not to find them in the books.

:huh:

The books are loaded with ideas about morality and male supremacy. It influences most of the novel, in one way or another. Most of the female characters seem to be written as exploring different ways a woman would navigate such a world.

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The books are loaded with ideas about morality and male supremacy. It influences most of the novel, in one way or another. Most of the female characters seem to be written as exploring different ways a woman would navigate such a world.

but we should be careful not to mix Martin's description of a historical or fictional timesetting with his own personal convictions. No writer is free free of transferring those into his story, and we should never expect that.

Otherwise his books would be self-censored down to poor politically correct journalism of westeros.

This debate has no doubt been led many times before I even heard about the books, so I won't be able to state anything new. And i love to analyse books, but they are no political pamphlets and should not be paragons of political correctness, describing noble affirmative action supporting lords. The books give a disillusioned view on their world, where women are brutalised and cripples are despised.

And, no , Martin is no reactionary Tea Party women hater, really not, we should not discuss him as one.

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I tend to agree with this, myself. The merchant class is mentioned in passing (Antler Men, the blacksmith who apprenticed Gendry) but they aren't explored as the smallfolk and the nobles were. Which is kind of a shame, they could have been very integral to the KL arc

I don't think that, for all it's vaunted 'grit' and 'realism', ASOIAF is particularly naturalistic or possibly even intended to be. "Portraying an accurate and realistically functional medieval/renaissance economy" is definitely WAY down on GRRM priority list, and possibly not at all. That is, ASOIAF is like the single least surreal-atmospheric thing of his that i've read. He uses worldbuilding to get across themes and support plot and characterization, not the other way around. Not saying that I don't like to geek out about historical comparisons or scratch my head at stuff that makes no fucking sense every now and then ( WTF is Northern Religeon anyway?) but largely I find ASOIAF not really written on that sort of nitty-gritty total detail registed, rather more based on awe and romantic cultural resonance and evocation for the worldbuilding. That is, is a feature not a flaw. :dunno:

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Hmm.. That's quite a situayion! With whatever tradable goods of interest I have (maybe my watch), I'd immediately try to make it to Oldtown. I could do with some Accolyte lessons. Then, on Westetosi garment, I would figure a way to visit The Reach and the Westerlands. My smartphone I would keep and hide. I would take pictures with it and document my visit.

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I believe Martin simply doesn't know much about economical structures at the end of medieval times. And unfortunately he has little understanding of art, handicraft and music. And, btw, so often artists simply used religious topics to hide their more unconventional Ideas about beauty and sexuality.

I tend to agree with this, myself. The merchant class is mentioned in passing (Antler Men, the blacksmith who apprenticed Gendry) but they aren't explored as the smallfolk and the nobles were. Which is kind of a shame, they could have been very integral to the KL arc.

I don't know about this. I've read historical novels set in the middle ages that don't deal with merchants, tradespeople, art or music either.

There are I think limits to what you can reasonably do within the context of a story about the conflicts of the political elites, it is a novel not an encyclopeadia after all. And there are more passing references to the arts and commerce than in many another fantasy book.

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And there are more passing references to the arts and commerce than in many another fantasy book.

With respect to the arts, where?

And, no , Martin is no reactionary Tea Party women hater, really not, we should not discuss him as one.

Nobody said that he is.
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As has been said before, although they all existed to a certain extent The Arts, (including music), and the merchant class didn't really take off until the cultural revolution known as The Renaissance.

I think GRRM has set the period firmly before this time. The widespread questioning of Political and Religious hegemony also accompanied the Renaissance and we see no evidence of this in the books.

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