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The_Salt_Wife

Did Shae get a raw deal?

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He did say that, but he was also willing to fight the Dothraki when they came to Westeros. I'm not saying I would order the poisoning of a pregnant woman, but my point is Ned doesn't even seem to consider that such a war would destroy the peasant class in Westeros.

If it came to a Dothraki invasion, not facing them would have worse effects for the peasant class. As Robert stated in the series, he could easily just sit in his castle and the Dothraki could do nothing about it, but they'd raze the fields, kill the smallfolk and take the survivors for slaves (like we've seen them do to any non-martial population they meet up with).

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His usefulness came from his being both male and part of the nobility. Shae's life was one of sexual abuse and at best lower middle class to outright poor. To me, Shae is likely just young Sansa without the rosy shelter of Winterfell. She has similar goals, just blackened by actually having to face the realities of non-noble life.

Well, yes because he was a warrior experienced in battles etc. But Shae also had a choice to do something useful corresponding to her gender and "class": to grow crops, to cook food etc. But she didn't choose one of those, don't tell be because she was sexually abused and so on. She could be useful, she just chooses not, because it is harder than to fuck (even with man you don't like). Moreover, you that she even wasn't working at the brothel, when she met Tyrion, because work there is also harder.

Yes, there are some similarities with Sansa, but, in practice, Shae appeared to be more experienced.

If Dothraki invaded, and he was obviously doubting that. Robert and Ned were discussing a fictional scenario of invasion, which was far from truth. I personally understood it another way: if Dothraki came, they would destroy them in the sea, not the land, because they are helpless there on the ships.

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Moreover, you that she even wasn't working at the brothel, when she met Tyrion, because work there is also harder.

Yes, there are some similarities with Sansa, but, in practice, Shae appeared to be more experienced.

I honestly don't remember that she said brothels are too much work. But I wouldn't blame her. Why take so many risks when Tyrion is more than likely clean and less demanding?

Her experience comes from being abused as a child, and she is still a child based on the POV (Tyrion) we see her in.

Just to clarify, "deserve" was meant in a relative sense, not me judging Ned as worthy of the death penalty. I just don't see how it could be any other way, if not the least because as an adult he had far more agency.

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Well, yes because he was a warrior experienced in battles etc. But Shae also had a choice to do something useful corresponding to her gender and "class": to grow crops, to cook food etc. But she didn't choose one of those, don't tell be because she was sexually abused and so on. She could be useful, she just chooses not, because it is harder than to fuck (even with man you don't like). Moreover, you that she even wasn't working at the brothel, when she met Tyrion, because work there is also harder.

Westeros appears to have a command economy, but this idea that being a sex worker is somehow not useful (in a way that being a warrior!! is) is something I disagree with. Shae could be a farmer, but she has another opportunity for social advancement and takes it. The same is true of Bronn, who could have become a peasant, but instead chooses a path to social advancement. If there is a shortage of farmers, weavers, blacksmiths, ect and an excess of sex workers and sellswords than the wages for the former group will rise and the latter group will fall, thus leading the scales to be balanced out.

Ned as an aristocrat by contrast has a station in life that is very much parasitic, (as does all of the knightly class), he defends his peasantry against rivals who defend their peasantry against he and his forces. Further unlike the position of sex workers in which economic forces will compel wages downward if there is an excess of workers, the knightly class is immune to economic pressures, as it has a practical monopoly on force.

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No, it doesn't. I agree with you there. However, it also doesn't make it any less wrong for Shae to lie during a murder trial. The fact that the defendant was her john and that she never really loved him is irrelevant.

What do you suppose would have happened to her had she refused to testify against him? Remember, Tyrion was in no position to protect her from Cersei. Bronn was off to claim his bride and land. Varys had proven himself untrustworthy. She was on her own against the might of the Queen. Had she not testified, she would have been killed and likely tortured first.

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I think Tyrion was trying to keep her safe when offering her a job as a maid. She's young, pretty and small: that isn't a good thing to be on the streets during difficult times. She could be easily raped and murdered in the street of King's Landing like thousands of nameless girls (or young women if you prefer). As an employee of Sansa and Tyrion, she was obligated not to talk about their personal lives to anyone like a housekeeper of today would be. I would have the right to sue a housekeeper for discussing my personal business on the street. Most employers make maids and other personal servants sign an agreement not to talk about anything that they might hear in confidence. Even when I worked as a volunteer at a hospital, I knew it was wrong to talk about anything I overheard.

I'm not saying that she deserved to die, but Tyrion invited her to be his wife's maid to keep her safe. She split on his kindness by speaking of things said in her confidence and then taking them out of context. He probably told her that he wanted Joffrey die. If I was working as a housekeeper and heard that, I wouldn't assume that person did it. People often wish other people dead and don't kill them. There were so many at the wedding that wanted Joffrey dead. Sansa wasn't the only one that thought him a monster. People knew Joffrey was hated by many.

Did he kill her because she lied in court? No, he was angry that she embarrassed him in court. He hired her to play a game, to pretend to love him. I felt that she had the obligation to continue to play that game. I hated her when she said those things in court against Tyrion. I thought as an employee she should have respected him and gave him loyalty. Bronn didn't lie in court. He didn't appear. That wasn't disrespectful and he was honest about it.

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I had liked Shae too, but think she got what she deserved. She embarassed him beyond belief at the trial and then was sleeping w/his father. I don't blame Tyrion at all. She betrayed him twice. She got off easy IMO.

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I had liked Shae too, but think she got what she deserved. She embarassed him beyond belief at the trial and then was sleeping w/his father. I don't blame Tyrion at all. She betrayed him twice. She got off easy IMO.

It's true the trial was embarassing; when I read that my reaction was "why does she have to tell everyone >_>"

But you're being horribly unfair to Shae by thinking it was her fault she was in bed with Tywin. Don't forget her station in life--she was a servant found out to be a whore. She has no power in that society. If Tywin ordered her to his bed, then she is gonna go to his bed whether she wants to or not.

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I see your point, I doubt she was all hip on hopping in Tywin's bed, but she shouldn't have called him my Giant of Lannister after she embarassed him w/that same phrase. I'm not sure he would've killed her until she said that, he might have said "A Lannister always pays his debts" and left, but that seemed the last straw for him. Now I never saw any of this coming. I thought Joffrey or Cersei might have been involved in something happening to her and then Tyrion would've killed Kpgg in revenge, but this was a big surprise how she ended.

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I think it was really cruel of Tywin. Not only do you find out he is a hypocrite for sleeping with her when he is always bitching to Tyrion about his whores, but he specifically chose Tyrion's favorite girl. I know she is a whore but men have some sense of one's right to a woman. I doubt he would have went with Shae before he knew she was with Tyrion. I felt like he did that just to f*** Tyrion over once more. I did think that Cersei forced her to testify, somehow.

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ICAM. Tywin most likely did it as a additional insult to Tyrion, but he had no way of knowing Tyrion would find them, but must've thought, while doing it, he'd find out someday. I wonder if we'll ever find out the deal Shae got, although it was probably in all honesty testify, embarass Tyrion, or you'll die.

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...As an employee of Sansa and Tyrion, she was obligated not to talk about their personal lives to anyone like a housekeeper of today would be. I would have the right to sue a housekeeper for discussing my personal business on the street. Most employers make maids and other personal servants sign an agreement not to talk about anything that they might hear in confidence...

But this isn't in the context of releasing some tittle tattle gossip to a newspaper this is a murder trial. That is going to trump any any non-disclosure agreement. Secondly it is a show trial, the Lannisters always pay their debts and I'm sure that Shae would have feared what would have happened to her if she didn't testify against Tyrion.

I had liked Shae too, but think she got what she deserved. She embarassed him beyond belief at the trial and then was sleeping w/his father. I don't blame Tyrion at all. She betrayed him twice. She got off easy IMO.

Sorry, but you seriously think that a woman should be killed just for embarassing a man?

...If Tywin ordered her to his bed, then she is gonna go to his bed whether she wants to or not.

There is a theory that Tywin had nothing to do with it, that the whole situation was set up by Varys.

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Westeros appears to have a command economy, but this idea that being a sex worker is somehow not useful (in a way that being a warrior!! is) is something I disagree with. Shae could be a farmer, but she has another opportunity for social advancement and takes it. The same is true of Bronn, who could have become a peasant, but instead chooses a path to social advancement. If there is a shortage of farmers, weavers, blacksmiths, ect and an excess of sex workers and sellswords than the wages for the former group will rise and the latter group will fall, thus leading the scales to be balanced out.

Ned as an aristocrat by contrast has a station in life that is very much parasitic, (as does all of the knightly class), he defends his peasantry against rivals who defend their peasantry against he and his forces. Further unlike the position of sex workers in which economic forces will compel wages downward if there is an excess of workers, the knightly class is immune to economic pressures, as it has a practical monopoly on force.

Agree with your post but I think you have to take into account something else: We all accept that Shae could be a farmer or something else without great problems but I am not so sure. She had to leave her home where people knew her and search for another place to live. But in other places people did not know her. How react people in small, rural and insular communities to strangers especially if they are young women sans family, husband or father and with little money? They probably mistrusted her (what woman usually leaves her own home? Mostly a "fallen" one) and besides, probably had enough workers from their community whom they could hire. I also doubt that in the towns the job situation was so much better which leaves prostitution as only viable choice for Shae.

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Shae gives credence to the high-born's belief that only the high-born are worthy of the riches. Shae thought she was clever enough to get in on the cash rewards but found, in the end, that she was playing a dangerous game. She played it fairly well and would have had success if not for the unexpected actions of Jaime and Varys.

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There is a theory that Tywin had nothing to do with it, that the whole situation was set up by Varys.

For everything that has ever happened in Westeros, someone has a theory that Varys was behind it.

There are just too many reasons why I think that is ridiculous for me to point them all out here. Mainly, I think that scene sent a powerful message, speaking of it as literature, that would just be bizarre to usurp the whole thing by bringing Shae back into the picture as part of some elaborate plot device.

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Whatever the circumstances of how Shae got into Tywin's bed that scene will always send the same powerful message about Tyrion's character.

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Whatever the circumstances of how Shae got into Tywin's bed that scene will always send the same powerful message about Tyrion's character.

Is that why she was in Tywin's bed? As a plot device to show how complete Tyrion's downfall is both internally as well as externally? That makes a certain amount of sense because I can't figure out any other reason for her to be there (that makes sense according to Tywin's character).

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I was thinking that it shows that he really isn't a very nice person, but if you like...

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Is that why she was in Tywin's bed? As a plot device to show how complete Tyrion's downfall is both internally as well as externally? That makes a certain amount of sense because I can't figure out any other reason for her to be there (that makes sense according to Tywin's character).

Well my interpretation of that scene was that Tywin had been whoring it up with Shae, and it shows how much of a hypocrite he is and what an evil heart he has. He just wanted to be with Shae as a fuck you to Tyrion. I think he is really, really angry at Tyrion for killing his wife and doesn't want Tyrion to have any love from a woman at all. He is so upset about Tyrion whoring not because he is especially opposed to whores/sleeping around but because he doesn't want Tyrion to have love at ALL from anyone. He's boxed the man into a corner by not making hier to Casterly Rock and finding a wife for him. Then, he punishes him for finding release another way (paying) because his real problem is that Tyrion could ever find happiness.

Sleeping with shae was his way of taking whatever love was between them away from Tyrion. Even though he didn't plan on Tyrion finding out, in his mind he could tell himself there was nothing between them that he couldn't buy for himself.

Though I do think he bought it with power, and not with money :\ Shae is a good pro and my theory is that's why she had the Hand's necklace on. They were probably fooling around before, trying on each other's clothes or Titanic roleplay or something.

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Well my interpretation of that scene was that Tywin had been whoring it up with Shae, and it shows how much of a hypocrite he is and what an evil heart he has. He just wanted to be with Shae as a fuck you to Tyrion. I think he is really, really angry at Tyrion for killing his wife and doesn't want Tyrion to have any love from a woman at all. He is so upset about Tyrion whoring not because he is especially opposed to whores/sleeping around but because he doesn't want Tyrion to have love at ALL from anyone. He's boxed the man into a corner by not making hier to Casterly Rock and finding a wife for him. Then, he punishes him for finding release another way (paying) because his real problem is that Tyrion could ever find happiness.

Sleeping with shae was his way of taking whatever love was between them away from Tyrion. Even though he didn't plan on Tyrion finding out, in his mind he could tell himself there was nothing between them that he couldn't buy for himself.

Though I do think he bought it with power, and not with money :\ Shae is a good pro and my theory is that's why she had the Hand's necklace on. They were probably fooling around before, trying on each other's clothes or Titanic roleplay or something.

I think he has no respect for Tyrion, and going back to Tysha, he did everything he could to ruin his chances of finding any type of happiness. Tywin was an evil person and his death frees a lot of people up, I'm really interested in finding out how Cersei and Jamie move forward from his death.

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