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The_Salt_Wife

Did Shae get a raw deal?

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I felt sorry for Tyrion when everyone was laughing at him (that was harsh) but in the end, you don't get to strangle people because they embarrass you.

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Of course Shae got a raw deal. But it's always amusing reading the excuses Tyrion fans come up for his vile acts.

Shae made her own bed and lied in it. I was honestly hoping she wasn't going to betray Tyrion but I was surpised that she did. What did surprise me is how big of a lie she told at Tyrion's trial. And then to find out she was in Tywin's bed. I wonder how long that had been going on. She had to have known that Tyrion genuinely and misguidingly cared for her. She used that to her advantage (in her mind). She deserved to die since she knew full well that her little theatrics would essentially seal the deal for Tyrion's death. And her I had liked her!

What betrayal? Tyrion was nothing more to her than a client.

Tyrion was already doomed at his "trial" without Shae's involvement. Do you really think anyone would've taken a common born prostitute accusing one of the highest ranked nobles in the realm remotely seriously if it wasn't for the overwhelming other evidence?

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Shae was only put on the stand so Cersei could further embarrass Tyrion, he was already guilty in the eyes of Mace Tyrell (and probably his own father) before anyone even got up to testify. Cersei used Shae to to mock Tyrion and implicate Sansa.

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I'm just surprised how everyone here is quick to decide who deserves to die! I know that the series is brutal, but that doesn't mean that all of us should become that way. I mean, sure, I wish for some characters in the book to die a painful death (Walder Frey comes to mind), but to say that someone deserves to die just for scorning someone is a bit over the top...

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Am I included in the "everyone", Nahlim?. I wouldn't go so far as to say she deserved to die. If she had been killed by Cersei for refusing to lie on the stand, I would have felt more pity for her. If she had died attempting to save and/or apologize to Tyrion after lying about him, I would have felt more pity for her. If she had died trying to escape King's Landing, I would have felt more pity for her. But she did none of those things; she lied about Tyrion to save her own hide and enjoyed the pleasures of his father's wealth once Tyrion was condemned. I do pity her; it's just not as much pity as I felt for other characters that died.

I apologize if it appears I'm a Tyrion apologist, but the truth is, we only have his point of view. If we had Shae's point of view, perhaps I would feel a lot differently.

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Very few people would be willing to die for Tyrion. Very, very few. I'm not interested in condemning Shae for not being willing to die for him. Even Bronn wasn't willing to die for Tyrion but nobody condemns him for it. Shae is enjoying "the pleasures of his father's wealth" and Bronn was bought off with a castle and a noble bride.

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Why is everyone making it sound like she just embarassed him a little? She lied on the witness stand and basically got him sentenced to death. Not by herself, but still. In real life, perjury is a serious crime, someone who got caught lying at a murder trial would go to jail for a very long time.

That said, I do feel sorry for Shae, I just don't think she's the angel people are making her out to be. I also haven't seen any evidence that Cersei or Tywin would have killed her if she hadn't lied for them, more likely they just paid her off somehow.

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I don't think GRRM had Tyrion kill her so we could say she deserved it (and worse), but to enhance the tragic character that is Tyrion. In my opinion he shouldn't have killed her, but I am glad he did, not because I think she deserved to die, but because it was a consequent way to establish Tyrion as a believable character with a nicely reversed redemption arc. Doesn't make it right, though. Poor Shae. She died a plot device.

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Well, I never said she was an angel. xD She did screw up big time.

I was just surprised that people are easy to take on the role of an executioner and decide who deserves to die. And, of course, when I said "everyone" I didn't mean every single person. xD

Other than that, story wise, it's fine that Tyrion decided to kill her cause it adds more to his character...

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Tyrion had been presented as a rational and intelligent person up to that point - albeit with a weakness for the "good things" in life.

With his own backstory, he had a very good reason (as much as it is later disproved) to mistrust prostitutes even before he met Shae.

From Shae's perspective, she did not act out of character. She played the role of the devoted sweetling with Tyrion until his well of gold dried up.

She then merely moved onto bigger and better things. Only if you believe that Tyrion's money should have bought him more than just the pleasure of her company can you condemn her actions.

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Tyrion goes through life mocking those around him for their looks, lack of wits, station in life. If he's mad at people for laughing at him over having a prostitute callling him a giant than he has only himself to blame. Your embarrassing sexual proclivities aren't safe with prostitutes.

But yeah her letting the court know that tyrion liked to be called a giant (which imo is hilarious) is totally a good enough reason to be strangled.

Cut the guy some slack. For all his life, Tyrion received only mockery, distrust, on account of how he looked. Even when he tried to make the best out of a crummy situation at King's Landing in ACOK, people still made him out to be a twisted little monkey. That is what his entire life has been like. Then he finds out that the only person he allowed himsefl to love, Jaime, lied to him about the most importat thing in Tyrion's life. He's not the only person to blame here.There's only so much an individual can take when all the reward he gets for being the best human being he can possibly be is mockery.

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I cannot understand this whole "she is a whore" excuse. A prostitute sells sexual services. not her allegiance,personal loyality or her entire human morality and decency. (as opposed to sellswords) Whore and "traitor" or disloyal person are not the same. Tyrion should have known that Shae doesn't love him or that she will not go and have sex with others , but that doesn't mean that he should have known that she will run to tell his secrets, and actively join his enemies in trying to humiliate and kill him.

Lets substitute sexual services for let's say a medical services or cleaning services. Would you justify Tyrion's personal and well treated doctor , whom Tyrion befriended and protected, if he decided to "jump on the winning wagon" in Tyrion moment of weekness, betray Tyrion, disclose his secrets and testify falsehoods against Tyrion?

Stating that somebody who provides sexual services for money must be inherently indecent and disloyal in all aspects of his/her life is sexist and degrading.

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You are arguing against a strawman. Nobody is saying "he should have known that she will run to tell his secrets, and actively join his enemies in trying to humiliate and kill him.". What some of us are saying is that Shae mocking Tyrion and then taking on his father as a client doesn't make Tyrion murdering her justified in any way. It's not her fault that he was deluded that she loved him and acted like a jealous lover.

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First of all, she wouldn't die if she wasn't in his father's bed that night, baring in mind her "betrayal" and the news Tyrion got earlier that evening! She just made few very unlucky choices (because of her greed): getting involved with Tyrion, lying in the trail, sleeping with his father...So she just ended up in the wrong place with the wrong man because of herself.

Stupidity and greediness are not worth pity!

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Well Tyrion had just been told Tysha wasn't a whore, then the whore who he had at least some feelings for, who had already stood against him in a trial turns up in his Fathers bed, when Tywin forbids Tyrion any whores! I'd be pretty pissed off if I was him to say the least. I think the whole Tysha thing is what killed her, Tyrion was pretty messed up at this point.

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You are arguing against a strawman. Nobody is saying "he should have known that she will run to tell his secrets, and actively join his enemies in trying to humiliate and kill him.". What some of us are saying is that Shae mocking Tyrion and then taking on his father as a client doesn't make Tyrion murdering her justified in any way. It's not her fault that he was deluded that she loved him and acted like a jealous lover.

But she did ran to tell his secrets , actively joined his enemies , tried to humiliate him and kill him (by testifying against him), didn't she? Did these deeds of her justify her killing, jealousy not withstanding? In our society governed by laws and human rights, certainly not - in our society only active self defense justify killing. In westerosy society driven by honor and self made justice it is entirely different thing.

You assume that Tirion has killed Shae purely out of jealousy - I challenge this assumption - this is your "straw-men". Probably jealousy was a factor, but Shae betrayal (not the sexual one) and actions were another one.

In this regard I wish to point out that "giant of lannister" thing is important not only because of the horrible mock it was (and it wasn't just "mocking" - it was a terrible public humiliation in a society that values "honor" above all else). It was symbolic of a fact that Shae didn't testify against Tyrion because she was forced to do so. She didn't only do Cercei's biding , she went "beyond the call of duty" - actively betraying and condemning Tirion purely out of greed and doing everything in her power to please her new masters.

Trust me, I know about ethics of whoring... my job is the closest one to it- I am a lawyer. :)

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In our society governed by laws and human rights, certainly not - in our society only active self defense justify killing. In westerosy society driven by honor and self made justice it is entirely different thing.
Bullshit. Ned is governed by honour, would he kill a girl in that situation? What about Jon? Robb?

That Tyrion has a behaviour consistent with Tywin or Ramsay regarding honour killing does not speak in his favour.

Told another way: you can talk yourself blue about supposed values of Westerosi society, we know who are the good guys and who are the bad guys, and we can clearly see which group acts like you say is normal to act.

but Shae betrayal (not the sexual one)
There was no betrayal. Tyrion only paid for her body. She doesn't owe him anything, except animosity, when the trial takes place.

As for the appeal to emotion about poor Tyrion, mocked all his life... Yeah, life sure is hard when the only thing you have to worry about is mockery, when others have to sell their body to survive, and hope that the most their John will do is kidnap them, dictate his rules and hit them when they speak out of line. I'm certain whores bear no social stigma either, lucky them. It's justified for one to murder his heart's content when one has been mocked, but mocking others, ah, totally unjustified, deserving of death penalty.

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I mean, even Tyrion himself knows how lucky he is by virtue of birth.

"You see a dwarf..."

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