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The_Salt_Wife

Did Shae get a raw deal?

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Bullshit. Ned is governed by honour, would he kill a girl in that situation? What about Jon? Robb?

There was no betrayal. Tyrion only paid for her body. She doesn't owe him anything, except animosity, when the trial takes place.

This is wrong. First...she first and foremost owes a duty to behave as a moral human being, without any regard to what Tyrion paid her or didn't. A moral human being doesn't testify falsehoods.

Second, any servant (sex servant or medical servent or cleaning lady) serving for somebody for some period of time owes his master certain amount of loyalty. Shae was no slave, Tyrion actually tried to end their relationship few times, but it was Shae who convinced him otherwise. He treated her well , even asking favors from Varies to assure her safety- even when he thought he will not be able anymore to fuck with her.

And when we are talking about servant who provides especially personal services that imply trust, (and Shae wasn't some random whore in a whorehouse but a trusted personal servant) loyality he owns is even bigger.

any servent

Ned, Robb and John are not a good example - they are almost "saints" in their behavior - a shining beacon of morality. If you will judge people according to standard set by them, you will be able to condemn anybody.

And there is "mocking" and "mocking". Just because both acts can be called by same name, they are not the same. It is one thing to call you a clown and another one to let's say secretly record a moment when your prick don't rise when you try you have sex with a woman and put it on a loop on a large screen TV in your place of work.

Anyhow , it was not the mocking that killed her but what this mocking symbolized - that Shae was a willing partner to an attempts to condemn Tyrion to death.

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Moreover, Shae didn't run to Cersei to betray his secrets as has been suggested here. Shae was arrested by Cersei immediately after Joffrey's death (along with the other maid) for questioning because Tyrion decided to make her his wife's maid. He placed her in the line of fire himself.

turns up in his Fathers bed, when Tywin forbids Tyrion any whores!

The reason he was forbidden any whores (which seems to get lost in these conversations) is the fact that Tyrion threatened to rape Tommen.

In westerosy society driven by honor and self made justice it is entirely different thing.

(and it wasn't just "mocking" - it was a terrible public humiliation in a society that values "honor" above all else).

It kind of sounds like you are defending honor killings here.

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Okay, now I'm relieved. xD There ARE people that don't justify murder.

But I can understand Tyrion fans trying hard to justify what he has done. It's in our nature to defend what we love...

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Shae didn't run to Cersei to betray his secrets as has been suggested here. Shae was arrested by Cersei immediately after Joffrey's death (along with the other maid) for questioning because Tyrion decided to make her his wife's maid. He placed her in the line of fire himself.

That is why whole "giant of Lannister" thing is so important. By this we learn that she willingly betray Tyrion (or al least this way it seems to be) and went much beyond what was necessarily to save her life.

BTW he didn't place her in line of fire, because being Sansa's made was a safe place for Shae to be, and she herself repeatedly lamented her being away from Tyrion in less flashy position. In hindsight it wasn't save --- but we are all very smart in hindsight.

It kind of sounds like you are defending honor killings here.

I would ask to refrain from demagogic tricks. We are discussing piece of literature, not arguing on TV show. I guess you know very well what a "honor killing" is and understand difference between women's sexuality being controlled trough murder with family honour being used as excuse, and person seeking retribution at someone who gravely assaulted his dignity. BTW our society also protects someone's honor and allows retribution against assailant on one's honor.

In our society it is done trough courts, by use of anti-libel and privacy laws. In our society Shae would have being imprisoned for a lengthy period of time for giving false testimony and taking part in a conspiracy to innocent person executed. In westerosy society , especially during civil war , people have to take law in their own hands.

The reason he was forbidden any whores (which seems to get lost in these conversations) is the fact that Tyrion threatened to rape Tommen.

This is not very relevant, but it seems to me to be a wrong interpretation. Tiwin believes that Tyrion affliction to whores endangers his position as a Lannister. The Tommen issue demonstrated that Tyrion cares about whores (Alayaya in this case) much more then a Lannister should care for a common person - that's why Tiwin had to stop it.

It's in our nature to defend what we love...

And it is our nature to accuse and seek arguments against ones we don't like. I (not love) but let's say see favour Tyrion because I don't see a huge fault in his actions, otherwise I wouldn't like him. Not that it was the best he could have done - a better man would have forgiven her, but given the circumstances I can understand it.

Thinking over the scene again it came to my mind that what actually "pushed Tyrion over" was not the mocking, but rather Shae's audacity in thinking that she can fool Tyrion once again. If she would have "come clean" and said him plainly that she jumped on the winning side, he would have understand it. She tried to fool him once again , and that was the real "last straw".

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. And it is our nature to accuse and seek arguments against ones we don't like.

I hope this was not addressed at me, because I never said a thing about Tyrion. I was talking about justifying things like murder and deciding who deserves to die... I have nothing against Tyrion and I agree that he had his reasons for killing Shae.

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The reason he was forbidden any whores (which seems to get lost in these conversations) is the fact that Tyrion threatened to rape Tommen.

I don't think that's why he is forbidden them. I think it's more to do with the fact he a Lannister of high birth, his father won't allow him, however he finds Shae in his fathers bed.

I can see both sides of the argument, Shae was a pawn, she had no choice but betray Tyrion to the court, the manner of her story could have been less mocking to him though. She couldn't refuse Tywin either, she is a whore and he is the most powerful man in Westeros at the time so that wasn't her fault. I would just say that Tyrion was seeing the red mist by this point, he was fuming and then he finds the woman he had a relationship with, whom had just betrayed him, in his father's bed.

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Why start such topic?! I mean, what would you like to hear?! "no-no, she didn't deserve to die, oh, bad Tyrion, bad, bad..."or what? She died because she made a bad choice...and was unlucky to be in that chamber that night...I don't think Tyrion would even try to find her to do that in purpose...She was just unlucky to be even born, I think...I mean with character she had (greedy and hypocritical ) and her life (being low born, without money, becoming a whore). She played her part and that's all.

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Nahlim,

My reply was addressed at an argument, not at a person.

You cannot justify murder, but not every killing is a murder. I wouldn't consider Tyrion's killing of Shae justified as such (this presumes that justice was served by this act ), but rather excusable. So may be if to consider a wording of OP question, Shae did get a raw deal, since in a result she was punished excessively for her crimes.

I can see both sides of the argument, Shae was a pawn, she had no choice but betray Tyrion to the court, the manner of her story could have been less mocking to him though. She couldn't refuse Tywin either, she is a whore and he is the most powerful man in Westeros at the time so that wasn't her fault

While as i have mentioned above I thinks that Shae didn't deserve to die, I think from the nature of her testimony and in general it is understood that she wasn't forced into betraying Tyrion or sleeping with Tywin, but rather eagerly jumped on the winning wagon and tried to win favors with Tywin. Of course this is only an impression.

What really bugs me, is the "she is a whore" argument, which implies that every woman (or a man) who provides sexual services for money, must be intrinsically disloyal, opportunistic, untrustworthy and generally immoral in every way. This is one sexist stigma which was used to degrade and victimize women who worked as prostitutes, and I deplore it. GRRM actually tries to go exactly against it by introducing a character of Alayaya who endures beating, but doesn't betray Tyrion or Shae, despite being a "whore".

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Yes, Shae got a raw deal.

Shae, according to her own history, was sexually abused by her father. She ran away from home because she did not want to become his whore. It is hardly clear she wanted to become a whore at all (probably not). But she becomes one, anyway, presumably because are not too many other survival options available for a teenaged runaway. As a whore, she learns to be very observant, and to gain a sense of men, as a survival skill. As she later explains (when she sees through Varys' disguise), a whore must be observant of men, if she is to survive.

At the Greenfork, she is no longer servicing multiple men. She is found in a Knight's tent, apparently serving a particular man (a squire, she later says). At the trial, she says this man was her fiancee -- that he had promised to marry her. Perhaps he did; and (whether he was telling the truth or not) perhaps she believed him. We have no evidence to the contrary - all the indications are that she hopes to escape her dead-end life as a common whore. She also says that this fiancee was placed in the vanguard and died in the battle of the Greenfork. Again, there is no evidence to the contrary.

At this time, she is still little more than a child. "No more than 18 by the look of her". Indeed, from her description, she could possibly be as young as 12 or 13. She is only 5 foot tall, slender, small-breasted, doe-eyed, and possessing an aura of unspoiled innocence that Tyrion finds remarkable in a whore.

She meets the mighty nobleman Tyrion Lannister just before the battle of the Greenfork. Tyrion sends his most vicious sell-sword to seize her for him. Bronn does seize her -- at knifepoint. Before he meets Shae, Tyrion warns Bronn to tell her WHO and WHAT he is. "WHO" is a powerful Lannister nobleman, not to be thwarted. WHAT is a dwarf, and Bronn (who has heard some of Tyrion's history) knows what this means: that she must not show revulsion; she must not acknowledge his dwarf status; she must feign eagerness. She must play the role of the eager whore.

This she does, when brought before him. But, though she does a good job of feigning eagerness, she does not really negotiate with him about the price of her services. Such negotiation would imply she had a choice, and this is not her understanding of the situation. (She makes a playful remark about the truth costing him extra; but he treats this as a joke, and she immediately drops the subject). Tyrion tells her he means to be a generous master, but specific amounts are not discussed, and he clearly does not expect them to be. He is a Lordly Lannister, giving orders to a common whore.

Tyrion's understanding of her lack of choice is emphasized after he learns from Bronn that she was taken by knifepoint. But by this time, he has decided that he wants her, and therefore puts aside qualms, and rejects Bronn's offer to take her back to the man he took her from. Indeed, his qualms, as voiced to Bronn, have nothing to do with Shae's rights at all. He is only concerned that he has made an enemy of another man.

Interestingly, this conversation about her "fiance" being Tyrion's "enemy" occurs just outside Tyrion's tend, where Shae is (pretending to be?) sleeping. When Tyrion later asks Shae about this man, Shae tries to convince Tyrion not to harm him. She assures him that he is a "small man", and no threat to him. This attempt to protect her former "fiancee" shows her understanding of the situation. She understands Tyrion to be a dangerous and powerful man who takes what he wants, and is willing to harm those who stand in his way. (Later, at Kings Landing, she hears him tell Varys that, being a coward, he likes to eliminate his enemies, by implication including those who show an interest in Shae).

But in attempting to protect her "fiancee", she makes an accidental slip-up. She uses the words "small man". This makes Tyrion angry. "And what am I, a giant?" Shae senses his anger, senses a threat, and remembers Bronn's warning. "Oh yes!" she says, "A giant of a Lannister." She does it well enough that Tyrion is mollified. (We see this threat again later, when she accidentally reminds him of his small size, and he responds by slapping her in the face. Her frozen, blank-faced apology shows how seriously she takes the situation).

Later, after the battle, after having been warned by Tywin not to do so, Tyrion decides to take Shae with him to King's Landing to defy his father. He knows he is putting Shae's life in danger by doing so, but does not care. Only his needs matter. Note that he does not ASK her if she wants to go to King's Landing. He TELLS her he is taking her there.

Tyrion understands that, during sex, Shae is only feigning eagerness, but does not mind as long as she pretends well. Sometimes he hurts her during sex (for instance, leaving bite-marks on her breasts that he does not notice until later), but he ignores her screams of pain, preferring his little fantasy that they are screams of ecstasy. Only once is Shae described as being sexually aroused during sex, and that is when Tyrion finds her asleep and dreaming. Shae was, presumably, dreaming about someone else.

At King's Landing, Shae is dissatisfied with being Tyrion's kept sex slave. She expresses this dissatisfaction, however, only in safe ways. Obviously, she dare not break the fantasy. She dare not say she wants to leave him, or that she prefers any other man. So instead, she expresses her aspiration to be more than a mere whore by saying she wants to be his "Lady Wife." She complains about being deprived of the clothes and jewels he has given her (and without which she will have trouble surviving after he abandons her). She is worried that he will die or abandon her, and what will become of her then? She has heard what happened to his last fantasy whore "wife", gang-raped by Tyrion with an entire army, and then made to disappear. Tyrion is in fact thinking of getting rid of her -- of giving her to a whore-house, or of marrying her to one of his vicious sell-swords. Meanwhile, the jealousTyrion insists on guarding her only with the ugliest and scariest of his sell-swords (a fact which she surely notices). She is briefly befriended by the handsome Simon Silvertongue ... but Tyrion has Simon murdered (mainly to eliminate a blackmailer, but the fact that Shae likes Simon, and that Tyrion sees Simon as a competitor for Shae, is also a factor).

It is also possible that, at this point, Shae is being used as a spy by either Varys, or Tywin, or both. Either way, she is a pawn of powerful people (including Tyrion) who have the power of life and death over her.

Before we move on to Shae's trial testimony, lets get a few things straight about Sansa and Tyrion. As for Sansa: (1) Sansa DOES hate Joffrey; (2) Sansa DOES want revenge against Joffrey for the deaths of her family; (3) Sansa DID in fact once try to murder Joffrey; (4) Sansa WAS in fact plotting something on the morning of Joffrey's death; (5) Sansa DID in fact play a key role in the plot to murder Joffrey (though she did not know it); (6) Sansa's maids DID in fact notice, on the morning of Joffrey's murder, that Sansa was nervous and trembling - and they also noticed her attempt to cover this up with an obvious lie (that the water was cold, which it was not). How much of this Shae knew or guessed is unclear, but we know she is a very observant person.

Now about Tyrion. (1) Tyrion DOES hate his family, and dream of them dead; (2) Tyrion DOES want power for himself; (3) Tyrion DOES think that Joffrey deserves to die; (4) Tyrion HAS tried to talk to Sansa about the fact that Joffrey deserves to die; (5) Tyrion HAS stolen poisons from Pycelle, presumably with the intent of using them; (6) Tyrion DID talk to Shae, on that night the dungeons, about how his entire family were a problem for his goals. Again, how much of this Shae knew or guessed or thought she knew, is unclear, but she has seen at least some of it, and we know she is a very observant person. In this case, Tyrion, unlike Sansa, is hardly shy about talking about his wickedness. He has even boasted, in her presence, that he is the type of man to eliminate his enemies through murder. Shae is hardly the only person to hear Tyrion talk about murdering Joffrey. Tyrion framed himself.

After Joffrey was murdered, Tyrion implicated himself in the murder by trying to pour out the poison chalice (which he apparently believed Sansa had given him). In doing so, he became an accomplice after the fact. He was also seen doing this.

After Joffrey was murdered, and Sansa escaped, everybody (presumably including Shae), reached the obvious conclusion. They had plotted it together. It was what everyone was saying. It was what everyone believed. Naturally, Sansa's maids were questioned.

Cersei naturally focussed her suspicions and her attentions on Shae, because she knew Shae was Tyrion's whore. Varys warned Tyrion that he would tell Cersei this if Shae came to her attention, and presumably carried through on his threat. Obviously Cersei suspects Shae is in on the plot, and will not hesitate to torture and kill her. There is only one way that Shae can save her life, and that is by trying to be as helpful as possible, even if she has to stretch the truth a little bit if possible. We cannot know what Shae knew or thought she knew, but it is ironic that her testimony is so close to the truth. Meanwhile, she has no reason to believe Tyrion and Sansa are innocent, and every reason to believe they are guilty as charged.

But what really angers Tyrion is the "Giant of a Lannister" thing. Note that Shae is crying when she gives this testimony. It is not funny to her. When the crowd starts laughing, she gets even more upset. ITS TRUE, she insists.

And this is, in the end, why he kills her. For breaking the fantasy. For not REALLY meaning it, when she called him a "Giant of a Lannister". For admitting she only said it because he "made" her do it. Which, in the final analysis, is more or less the truth. If you look back, the "giant" thing really was his idea, not hers. Their whole fantasy whore-wife relationship was his idea, begun with a knifepoint abduction.

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Fearsome Fred, you DID describe everything in detail and very well! And I really agree with you: it wasn't her fault-her life, she was trying to save herself and so on. But he wouldn't probably kill her if she wasn't there...she just was unlucky! But why GRRM put her there...that's another story! And I don't think she was that innocent in her heart: she seemed to know what she wanted and plus she was playing and using him too!

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Fearsome Fred...

You are dead wrong. She was only 5 years old and Tyrion was a nasty phedofile. It was clearly said "No more than 18 by the look of her"... no more then 18 could very well mean 5, doesn't it? (at least if we will use your rules of interpretation which are: "we can invent any facts we want without any basis whatsoever as long it wasn't clearly stated that it is not so")

And since we are talking about 5 years old, about what kind of consent can we talk anyway?

Do you know how I know she was 5? Because she didn't understood the danger to her life and was worried about jewelry... that's exactly how 5 years old behave. And that's why she call Tyrion a giant. For a 5 years old even a dwarf can be a giant.

And anybody who think that Shae wasn't 5 is sexist chauvenist and is worst then Hitler.

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You are arguing against a strawman. Nobody is saying "he should have known that she will run to tell his secrets, and actively join his enemies in trying to humiliate and kill him.". What some of us are saying is that Shae mocking Tyrion and then taking on his father as a client doesn't make Tyrion murdering her justified in any way. It's not her fault that he was deluded that she loved him and acted like a jealous lover.

It seems more like you're the one arguing with a strawman. No, of course Shae taking on another client doesn't justify Tyrion's murder, but that's not the main issue here. The real issue is that Shae was actively participating in a conspiracy to get Tyrion unjustly sentenced to death, and even if that doesn't justify him murdering her, it certainly makes it a lot more understandable than simply murdering her out of pride and jealousy.

In our society it is done trough courts, by use of anti-libel and privacy laws. In our society Shae would have being imprisoned for a lengthy period of time for giving false testimony and taking part in a conspiracy to innocent person executed. In westerosy society , especially during civil war , people have to take law in their own hands.

This. Exactly.

Perjury is a SERIOUS crime in every society, including ours. In fact, in the original ten commandments, "Thou shalt not lie" was actually the much more specific "Thou shalt not bear false witness," meaning that even in ancient times giving false testimony was considered one of the worst possible offenses. In Westerosi society, I wouldn't be surprised if it was legitimately punishable by death.

Say Tyrion had been executed, and someone (who wasn't working for Cersei) later found conclusive evidence that Shae had lied during the trial... Do any of you really doubt that a good man (like Kevan Lannister or Addam Marbrand, for instance) would have had her hanged or beheaded for her crime?

Keep in mind that while Shae's testimony alone didn't seal Tyrion's fate, she was one of only three people to outright lie on the witness stand. If it'd been Osmund Kettleblack who'd been murdered instead, would anyone really be talking about how he got a "raw deal" or calling Tyrion a horrible person for killing him? :P

Fearsome Fred: LOL! That was a fun read but seriously, you can make any character look like a monster if you twist things around like that. Maybe Bran is just a bitter and spiteful little crippled boy who mind-rapes the mentally disabled so he can feel powerful and likes murdering people with his wolf for fun. :rolleyes: Those poor Ironborn guards and Wildling scouts just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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It seems more like you're the one arguing with a strawman. No, of course Shae taking on another client doesn't justify Tyrion's murder, but that's not the main issue here. The real issue is that Shae was actively participating in a conspiracy to get Tyrion unjustly sentenced to death, and even if that doesn't justify him murdering her, it certainly makes it a lot more understandable than simply murdering her out of pride and jealousy.

Maybe it's just my interpretation, but the way I see it, for Tyrion it was the jealousy and the hurt pride which was his main motivations for the murder. He was a lot more angry about the "giant of Lannister" part in her testimony than about her claims he wanted to kill Joffrey. And before she stumbled upon her by accident in his father's bedroom, he certainly wasn't planning "I need to kill Shae because she committed perjury at my trial".

"Involved in a conspiracy to get Tyrion unjustly sentenced to death" is really stretching it, BTW. Most likely Shae thought he was guilty and would be sentenced to death with or without her testimony. She knew he hated Joffrey, she knew he couldn't stand mockery and she most probably have heard the details about the murder, which certainly made Tyrion the number one suspect by far..Also this is not a modern type of trial with the whole "presume to be innocent" principle paramount - it's pretty much the other way around. So I believe it was a case in which Shae thought Tyrion was guilyu and would get executed anyway. Her false testimony is still wrong under those circumstances, but it's nowhere near as bad as dooming someone who you know is innocent to death with your testimony being decisive for that.

Say Tyrion had been executed, and someone (who wasn't working for Cersei) later found conclusive evidence that Shae had lied during the trial... Do you have any doubt that any good man (like Kevan Lannister or Addam Marbrand, for instance) wouldn't have had her hanged for her crime?

Wait, Kevan is a good guy? This is the guy who led Tywin's campaign of atrocities in the Riverlands and is responsible for the deaths of thousands.

Anyway, most probably Shae would've been executed for that, since she was a commoner falsely accusing a high lord. That doesn't make it right though. The Westeros laws aren't exactly fair and morally sound to say the least.

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Yes, she got a raw deal, and yes, Tyrion's behaviour wasn't surprising, but you'll find a lot of people to claim she deserved what she got and that tyrion is white as snow.

And you'll find a lot of people also claiming that Catelyn Stark was rational and a very thoughtful, intelligent character too :D

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Shae did get a raw deal. Tyrion should not have killed her as he placed her in KL and exposed her to the dangers of the court and his sister.

Once he found out that Cersei had captured and brutally whipped the other prostitute - that should have galvanized him to move her to a safer location (if such a location could indeed be found). But it was his lust that kept her in KL.

If I remember correctly, Shae did not by her own accord testify against Tyrion. Once she was brought into custody by Cersei and threatened with extreme violence - it was very hard for her to do anything other than comply and testify against Tyrion.

I found it very disturbing that Tyrion doesn't seem to think much about Shae's death in ADWD. Nor does he seem to have any remorse for her. I hope her death will come to haunt him in the next book.

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Wait, Kevan is a good guy? This is the guy who led Tywin's campaign of atrocities in the Riverlands and is responsible for the deaths of thousands.

Anyway, most probably Shae would've been executed for that, since she was a commoner falsely accusing a high lord. That doesn't make it right though. The Westeros laws aren't exactly fair and morally sound to say the least.

Regarding Kevan, everything I've read so far makes it seem like he's a basically decent person. I was under the impression that it was Gregor Clegane who was doing most of the pillaging in the Riverlands, and Kevan was just leading his brother's army against Robb and Edmure's armies in legitimate wartime engagements. During one of the council meetings, he seems absolutely disgusted by the idea of killing innocent people or lords and soldiers who've surrendered. Granted, all this information is from Tyrion and Jaime's POVs, so it might be a little biased.

As for the Westerosi laws not being fair... What do you think would happen to someone in the real world if they lied during a murder trial and got an innocent man condemned to death? What do you think should happen?

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That one's pretty simple, they go to jail for perverting the course of justice. As opposed to being murdered.

Quod so erat demonstrandum.

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