Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

The_Salt_Wife

Did Shae get a raw deal?

Recommended Posts

Oh I can, didn't Cersei start screaming that Tyrion had killed her son right after it happened?

Yes. And she believed it too. And not without reason.

There is so much evidence against Tyrion that even I sometimes wonder. The only thing convincing me of his (technical) innocence is my access to his inner thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remember, Cersei is not really trying to "frame" anybody. She wants real information. She wants the real culprits. I can see Shae twisting the truth to please an implacable interrogator who already "knows" Tyrion is guilty, and who already "knows" that Shae knows something about it, but I cannot see Cersei literally scripting anything.

What I can see is Shae stretching some of the truth in her eagerness to disassociate herself from Tyrion (thus coming up with the story about the marriage to the squire) and then trying to look for clues in what she's seen earlier that tie him and Sansa to Joffrey's murder (such as Sansa's nervousness earlier in the day, et al).

The problem is that Cersei firmly believes that Tyrion is guilty. She wanted real information and the real culprits, but she believes that she knows who they are. Shae wasn't brought up there because she was a meaningful witness against Tyrion. Her testimony is nothing compared to Taena, Pycelle, Varys, KG members, et cetera -- she is a prostitute, from the dregs of society in Westeros. She was brought up there to 1) implicate Sansa (who Cersei and the rest of the court is certain is involved but have no actual evidence against beyond the disappearance); and, 2) humiliate Tyrion. That was her entire purpose up there, a grinding humiliation and a power play on Cersei's part after the situation with Tommen and Alayaya.

I don't think Cersei is sitting around thinking that she's going to frame the innocent Sansa and Tyrion. I think that she's looking for evidence to bring the clearly guilty pair to justice and she will have it, come hell or high water. So I do think that Shae's testimony was almost entirely exaggerations and lies, but I don't necessarily think it was at her own impetus nor do I blame her for acting dishonorably out of self-preservation, especially given that it is highly unlikely that Shae believed Sansa and Tyrion were innocent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh I can, didn't Cersei start screaming that Tyrion had killed her son right after it happened? I think Shae did probably stretch the truth but I think Cersei wanted certain embarrassing details added just to spite Tyrion and implicate Sansa.

:agree:

There is so much evidence against Tyrion that even I sometimes wonder. The only thing convincing me of his (technical) innocence is my access to his inner thoughts.

:agree:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So this is a little off topic, and if there is a thread covering this, tell me and I'll head there, but did Varys know who poisoned Joffrey? What is his motive for staying quiet if he did know the real culprits?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So this is a little off topic, and if there is a thread covering this, tell me and I'll head there, but did Varys know who poisoned Joffrey? What is his motive for staying quiet if he did know the real culprits?

I don't think he actually knew who did -- but I do think he wanted to remove Tyrion from the Lannisters and get him as an adviser for Dany.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually in this particular article they do speak about "age of

adulthood", whatever that means

Until you know what it means, you don’t know what it means. In our times, we also speak of 12-14 year old children coming “of age”. We also know about puberty.

(In our modern time it is first and foremost a right to vote, and I

don't see why it is more important then a right to consent to have

sex).

Voting rights nowadays tend tied to the “age of majority” when one is old enough to manage one’s own property. The medieval equivalent of the age of majority was 21 years of age. Their “twenty-one” was our “eighteen”.

The criminal law of consent had (and still has) nothing to do with any “right to consent to have sex”. It had to do with whether someone would be hanged for rape, as opposed to being guilty of a lesser crime or sin. Here in New York, 11 years of age is the lowest age at which a child’s consent is relevant in a legal prosecution (otherwise it is a much lesser crime), and, even when the girl is under eleven, the penalties are less than they were in the middle ages. So in many ways our child-sex laws are more lenient towards perpetrators than theirs were.

Thirdly, regardless of whether the “right to have sex” is more important than the age of full adulthood, the fact are they are DIFFERENT THINGS, and we were talking about the latter, not the former. Here in New York, the MAXIMUM age at which a girl’s consent might be relevant to a criminal prosecution is 17 years. Yes, 17 is the maximum criminal “age of consent” (one of many such “ages of consent”, including 11 and 13), but 18 is the age of majority.

But anyhow age of marriage, age of consent and age of criminal

responsibility are rather important.

Sure they are. But they are not, and were not, not the same thing as the age of full adulthood. That came at twenty-one years (compared to our 18).

Age of adulthood comes at 18 now, at least here in New York. But age of criminal responsibility is 13 or 14. Age of marriage is 14. And criminal “age of consent” is as low as 11 (and as high as 17 for much lesser crimes). So even today, it is apples and oranges.

A person who is considered by a society responsible enough to be a

mother and run a household is much more close to adult then to a

child.

In the middle ages, society did NOT consider 12-year olds to be responsible enough to run households, or necessarily, even to “be mothers”. 21 years of age, not 12, was the age at which a person was considered legally competent to manage property.

Married girls did not achieve independence. They merely went from being subject to their fathers to being subject to their husbands. Wives often did end up managing households, despite their husband being technically in charge. But 12-year olds who got married did not typically end up managing households, even on a de-facto basis. Even setting aside her husband, someone else was almost always in charge. If a peasant girl got married at a very young age (which was unusual), she would typically end up as part of a household headed by an older woman (such as, for instance, her mother in law). If she married a rich man, that man would have servants to manage the property and educate the children.

But it may well be that, in the middle ages, the ability to manage a household was important for most (but of course not all) marriages. If so, this helps explain why, in the middle ages, most marriages were to brides over the age of 18 years. If a groom needs a bride who is mature enough to manage a household, and to be in charge of raising and educating children, then he does not, for obvious reasons, marry a 12-year old.

Since the majority of girls married at 18+ years of age, it would appear that the majority of society did not think 12 year olds were competent to be mothers and wives. High profile exceptions existed among the aristocracy, but among the aristocracy the household was managed by servants, and the children were cared for and educated by servants. The aristocrats did not think 12-year olds were competent to be “mothers” either, except in the purely physical sense.

Which is probably more to the point. 12-year olds could get pregnant. Since this could happen, it was probably felt that it should be legally possible for them to get married when this happened.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am sorry, but what difference it makes whether she was 13 or 17 (as I expect she was)?! She really lied! And I don't think she ever thought about anything or anybody! He sold him, when the first opportunity came! She wasn't a decent or compassionate person at all: remember what she said about the high born girl raped for 100 times and eventually become pregnant the day, when the princess went to Dorne (I don't remember her name, the one that was not very smart or there was something like that about her), She literally said that it wasn't big deal and that she envied her jewellery! She wanted gold, jewellery and so on so much! Or did you see any compassion to Sansa? NO! She never cared about nobody, even about Tyrion! Instead she used him to get to a better place, manipulated him.

Yes, he deluded himself, but Tyrion took her to KL, gave her a good house and food, whatever she wanted, he tried to keep her save all the time, later he put her to the palace, or what it's called, for safety, she even didn't wanted to be a maid (I mean, what she expected? She was a lowborn whore!), in general he treated her well (about biting: sex preferences are a personal thing, really;if you have a husband or wife and you have a healthy relationship sometimes you can play, as you wanted :) ), and in the end she lied to sentence him to death!

I don't think she even made any thought about who the murderer was, she wasn't interested, but she was capable enough to realize what she can get from this trial! I don't think somebody ever threatened her! We have evidence of this! NOT even a sign, it just speculation!

She wasn't decent, truthful or kind! But we have evidence that she indeed was manipulative, mean, greedy and heartless person!

It has nothing to do with the fact that she was a whore or lowborn or that she suffered a lot! It's her character... I mean do you remember the young whore, who was a cover in order to keep Shae safe!!!She was good and decent girl, I pity what happened to her, but she really was a good person!

+, as I wrote in posts earlier, she was just unlucky! He wouldn't find her to kill her... instead he met her in his father's bed in very, very, very depressed mood! He gave her what she wanted - gold! (Keeping in mind, that Tysha was an innocent girl and Shae just pretended to be innocent)

Did Shae get a raw deal?! I don't know, may be, It's not for me to decide (it's not the character from my book) but at least I can see why she got what she got! I'm not the fan of murders and I do not approve them, but I really understand why

Just put yourself into Tyrion's shoes! What would you do?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am sorry, but what difference it makes whether she was 13 or 17 (as I expect she was)?!

People are angry at me for referring to her as a "child" or a "teenager", even though, in my book, that is exactly what she was. Address your question to them. Ask THEM why it makes a difference. I never said it did.

She really lied!

More like she sorta lied. Nothing more can be proven.

And I don't think she ever thought about anything or anybody!

That's just hostile speculation intended to justify murder. Anyway, it is not true. I have already shown that she tried to protect her former "client" or "fiancee" or whoever he was from Tyrion by trying to convince him not to harm him.

(I mean, what she expected? She was a lowborn whore!),

That is precisely his attitude. Which is why people like him (and you) are extremely dangerous to people like her.

in general he treated her well

By YOUR standards, yes. Which is what makes people like you so dangerous.

I don't think somebody ever threatened her! We have evidence of this! NOT even a sign, it just speculation!

Only if you are dumb. She was imprisoned and then interrogated on suspicion of involvement in a conspiracy to assassinate the King.

she was just unlucky!

Yes, but she was also murdered by a murdering murderer with no morals. It was not his first murder, nor his last.

Just put yourself into Tyrion's shoes! What would you do?

I would strangle a helpless teenager to death. OH WAIT! That's not what I'd do. That's what YOU would do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fearsome Fred, do you know anything about me to make such conclusions? do you really know anything? :))

it's even ridiculous! I did not justify murder!

You must be reading everything wrong! I said that it was GRRM's decision not mine! It is just a character in the fantasy book! I, myself, the way I am now, wouldn't do that! but Tyrion, once again a character in the book, did what GRRM wanted him to do! It's not my fantasy, it's his! I just said what I saw in the book! I'm not so Tyrion's fan, believe me!

But she lied: she confirmed that he was plotting to kill Joffrey, which was not true!

Be realistic about the times and customs the book describes, which are common to those of medieval times, if you are not aware read something about it- that's the comment for treating and lowborn whore! I prefer treating people by their deeds and their character, and not for their class, or how much money they have, I hope that most people do, but remember it's our times, not medieval or that bloody Ice and Fire times.

Another thing: I had some unpleasant things in my childhood (even younger than 13) and in my further life (in reality, not in a fantasy book), I have at least right to speak on this matter, so I can say I wouldn't do what she had done! I would not lie in the trial to sentence to death another person (who wasn't the nicest, but at least he cared about her), because it's just not fair! it's simple as that! I pity her childhood story, not only as it is very cruel thing that can happen to an innocent child, but as it is also very common with mine, but I do not justify what she did. And I didn't say she deserved it. I just said that Martin thought she did! Why not blame him?

In the future, please, be careful when you tell somebody something stupid and offensive! I, myself, did not say anything bad about you personally! We just arguing about the character in the book, not even in real person in real time! In reality I am quite just person, at least I do not charge people without even knowing them, and I do really protect the small and helpless, as children can be! So, please, be polite.

and by the way, there are a lot of characters, who didn't deserved to die as well, even better than Shae! All those really helpless innocent children!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

but I do not justify what she did. And I didn't say she deserved it. I just said that Martin thought she did! Why not blame him?

Martin wrote about a john (tyrion) strangling a sex worker (shae) because of sexual jealousy. He also wrote about a princess being raped and murdered by a man who had just murdered her son and her son's brain's and blood was on his hands. That doesn't mean that martin (the writer) approves of either act, or that he thinks either murder victim deserved it. Just because he writes about an act happening doesn't mean he approves of it.

Sadly most people take the point of view that shae did deserve to be killed because tyrion treated her well (i really hope someone claiming that never gets on a jury), and that objecting to being a maid is somehow indicative of laziness and lack of character (i must have a real lack of character too, because if I was hired for a job that did not involve housekeeping, and then post-facto was told I'd have to do housekeeping I'd flip out), and embarrassing him in public was mean (which it was, but if anyone deserved it, it was him).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But Shae was a greedy, lazy, not too intelligent girl. No need to whitewash her. Tyrion still treated her abusively and murdered her, and if anyone deserved to be humiliated, it was him, who's so eager to humiliate everyone else when he has the chance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did not justify murder!

Glad to hear it.

but Tyrion, once again a character in the book, did what GRRM wanted him to do!

Governor Tarkin did what George Lucas wanted him to do when he blew up Alderaan. What's your point?

But she lied: she confirmed that he was plotting to kill Joffrey, which was not true!

No. That was actually true. The part she got wrong was that he was plotting WITH SANSA to kill Joffrey. Actually, he only TRIED to plot with Sansa to kill Joffrey, but failed because she ignored him.

But of course, the fact that she got it partly wrong does not make it a lie.

I just said that Martin thought she did! Why not blame him?

Why? Regardless of what you meant, why should I blame Martin for your words?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I've lived my life just waiting for you approval or appreciation! :)

My point is that they are not real people, they are the characters in the fiction book and in real time everything is different, because everything depends on your own decisions! by the way, Shae as a character and person did die due to her decisions and which is more important because of extremely unlucky circumstances.

I meant not blaming him for my words, but for what he did to Shae (I mean Martin)!

could you, please, tell me the chapter and the page where Tyrion tried to plot something to kill Joffrey?I just don't remember and I would like to re-read! thank you

I did not say anything about humiliation and, what is even more important, I didn't even say that anybody deserve it at all! that's another topic.

I did not say anything about her laziness as well. I just tried to point out that the medieval times and the way people thought are quite different from what we think now! Not mentioning that it is an invented world! it seems quite strange for Westeros world to accept a lowborn whore (I understand that you may not like such combination of words, but its in westeros language) in a court like a lady, and as I remember she even resented when he suggested it, as if she was expecting something else. That is also strange, I mean, by their laws and customs...By the way, he made her a maid in a palace just to save her from the crowds, which was also very dangerous due to Cersei, but at least she would be in safe place with guards.

I do not know whether Martin approves her murder or not, but it wasn't me or you, who put it in the book! And once again I really think that there are more innocent victims in the book, who didn't deserve even to be involved in such dreadful events!

In the beginning I hoped that they would love each other, later I really thought that she was that kind of character, who is doomed because she was greedy, manipulative and even egoistic. but then I understood that it wasn't me to decide! I didn't want many characters, better, true, decent and more innocent then Shae, to die, but they died or there was something dreadful happened to them! I just don't see the point of discussing whether she deserved it or not. May be we should discuss whether the young prostitute deserved to be tortured and beaten to safe such creature like Shae? I mean when I read that passage I was afraid that it was Shae, and I almost cried when I realized who it was. The girl was innocent and, when Shae testified, me, a reader, even like wanted her to be on that girl's place! I know it is not fair, because Shae didn't know about her, but still as an observer, I do wanted, at that moment, her just to feel what is like to be really mistreated by Lannisters, like that poor child did (as I remember she was extremely beautiful and even younger than Shae).

And later, when Tyrion found her in his father's bed with a new thick golden chain on her neck, I knew she wouldn't survive, but I wasn't glad or pleased, I just thought she put it on her own head (as far as I understand everyone here agreed that there were strong evidences against Tyrion, everyone was convinced, and it would be quite fair if she just didn't invent lies to save her own neck).

P.s: English is not my native language, therefore, I probably do not express my thought clearly sometimes. I do apologize.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Warning: Discussion about sexual abuse and child psychology.

May be we should discuss whether the young prostitute deserved to be tortured and beaten to safe such creature like Shae? I mean when I read that passage I was afraid that it was Shae, and I almost cried when I realized who it was. The girl was innocent and, when Shae testified, me, a reader, even like wanted her to be on that girl's place!

But that innocent girl was put in such a situation by Tyrion's own selfishness and his need to one up Cersei. Recall he actually thinks about whipping Tommen, rationalizing it as "if I don't Cersei wins" (paraphrase).

It isn't that Shae isn't selfish, but she's about as selfish as I'd expect a runaway who was sexually abused to be. She has to look out for herself, and in her mind her best chance of that is to play to fantasies of men, likely something that stems from her abuse.

Mind you NOT saying everyone who is abused will be like Shae, just saying her character wasn't created in a vacuum.

And later, when Tyrion found her in his father's bed with a new thick golden chain on her neck, I knew she wouldn't survive, but I wasn't glad or pleased, I just thought she put it on her own head (as far as I understand everyone here agreed that there were strong evidences against Tyrion, everyone was convinced, and it would be quite fair if she just didn't invent lies to save her own neck).

I'm not as gung-ho about Shae's raw deal as Fred, but I do think the reason for her murder was Tyrion's inability to separate reality from fantasy. He is paying someone to be a sex worker, then decides she should be a maid. At this point her life is in his hands.

She asks for jewels in the same way you or I would ask for a raise. And by the descriptions in the book, the way she makes her arousal so believable, she seems to deserve one. She performs her job well, and expects to be compensated.

Tyrion didn't do anyone a favor by making her maid but himself. She was literally risking her life for him, and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember him telling Shae, "Oh, if my father catches you he'll hang you."

He set himself up as the hero in his mind, that he was giving her something more than she would have otherwise. But he doesn't actually ask her and present her the risks.

Much of Shae's callousness and "laziness" can be traced, IMO, back to her abuse (again, NOT saying everyone who is abused will be like Shae). Does anyone really think she ran away because she didn't like chores? Or that her desensitization to Lolly's being raped doesn't stem from her own past?

Now, having said all that, let's be clear. Tyrion also got a raw deal. His position has made him incredibly compassionate at times, and he does possess a moral code. But the whole nightmare with Tysha obviously scarred him and reinforced fears about his own appearance.

This is what I think is so great about GRRM's series - that fallible humans are struggling through life. But Tyrion's suffering doesn't justify Shae's death in my mind.

ETA: "stems" to "doesn't stem"

ETA II: Corrected because Tyrion does tell her the gang rape story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just put yourself into Tyrion's shoes! What would you do?

I would strangle a helpless teenager to death. OH WAIT! That's not what I'd do. That's what YOU would do.

ROTFL. Brilliant.

Lol, "WWTD?" - that'd make a good caption for a T-shirt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ETA II: Corrected because Tyrion does tell her the gang rape story.

If Tyrion really was in love with Shae or had the least bit of concern for her well-bring - he would never have let her come to King's Landing. His experience with Tysha should have branded the idea as totally dangerous in his intelligent brain.

Everything he does for her - including withholding her jewels/ie her wages - is for his own personal gratification.

Now, I like Tyrion because he's fairly intelligent, witty and possesses some humanity - but he really is a [email protected] He doesn't seem to show any regret over murdering her for humiliating him in court. Frankly, I hope he gets eaten by a dragon called Tysha in the end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I meant not blaming him for my words, but for what he did to Shae (I mean Martin)!
You are projecting an agenda on him, then blaming him for it. Martin is not condoning what he wrote Tyrion doing to Shae anymore than he is condoning Bran mindraping Hodor, Arya murdering people, Theon killing children, Jaime killing Jory, or Cersei killing chambermaids, that is your fallacy.

Tyrion can be wrong, and it happens that with Shae, he is, so we can blame Tyrion, as a character, the same way we can blame Theon, or Cersei, or Jaime, or Arya. Claiming (between the lines) that we ought to blame Martin for not creating carebear-land, were nobody murders anyone, is all kinds of stupid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are projecting an agenda on him, then blaming him for it. Martin is not condoning what he wrote Tyrion doing to Shae anymore than he is condoning Bran mindraping Hodor, Arya murdering people, Theon killing children, Jaime killing Jory, or Cersei killing chambermaids, that is your fallacy.

Tyrion can be wrong, and it happens that with Shae, he is, so we can blame Tyrion, as a character, the same way we can blame Theon, or Cersei, or Jaime, or Arya. Claiming (between the lines) that we ought to blame Martin for not creating carebear-land, were nobody murders anyone, is all kinds of stupid.

My point was: do not blame me for things I DIDN'T COMMIT! and Fearsome Fred, unfortunately, attacked me, as if I myself killed her, which seems very unfair! I just said that it is in the book... Plus it's much more stupid to blame me for those things, don't you think?

I know that Tyrion selfishness put that poor girl into such situation, but as you see I didn't make him a sweet innocent person (just pointed out that he also had rough time at the moment he was killing Shae). But there is a big difference between that girl, who actually knew something, but still did not tell, despite the fact that she was tortured, and Shae, who didn't know a thing, but invented, not being touched by anybody (as it wasn't written in the book something opposite). We do not know, if really thought that he was guilty for Joffrey's murder, but at least we know she lied things, which did not happen!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×