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Is Tywin Jaime's father?


OneEyedCat

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This may be taking it too literally, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt. Also, I forgot the quotes I want, so feel free to point out the holes in my arguments. Here are my reasons that it is possible Jaime and Cersei are actually the children of Aerys Targaryen, and Tyrion is the only real child of Tywin Lannister:



1. Tyrion has many Targaryen-like features:


Like the fact that Tywin favors Jaime and Cersei over Tyrion, these Targaryen features are a red herring, hiding the fact that Tyrion is Tywin's only (legitimate) child. Actually, the very Lannister-looking Jaime and Cersei are the secret Targaryens. This is not evidence for Jaime and Cersei being Targaryens, but I think it should be addressed.


2. Tyrek, Tytos, Tygett, Tywin... Jaime?:


It seems that many Lannisters have the "Ty-" prefix to their first name. (I realize that plenty don't, but still, keep in mind that I don't know anyone outside the Westerlands that has a name that starts with "Ty-." And considering that Jaime is the heir to Casterly Rock, it seems natural that Tywin would give Jaime a very Westerlands-ish name. Instead, he gave him a name that could fit anywhere. Instead, Tyrion is the Lannister who gets the traditional "Ty-" prefix. Do I think Tywin named him thus to acknowledge his Lannister bloodline? No. I think George RR Martin did. And as a final point, what was the name of the only woman who truly loved Tyrion? Tysha. Once again, that prefix comes up.


3. Jaime and Cersei's incest:


I know incest isn't genetic, but in many cultural storytelling traditions, children gain personal traits of their parents. And nothing is more Targaryen than sleeping with your sister. Speaking of which....


4. A Sister for Rhaegar:


It seems that from the start, it seems that two points need to be noticed. Rhaegar lacked a sister, who he would have traditionally married. Moreover, Tywin seems to have constantly told Cersei that she would be Rhaegar's queen. Even at the time that Tyrion was born (Cersei was only around nine years old), Tywin declined an offer of marriage between Oberyn and Cersei because she was going to marry Rhaegar. My theory is this. Tywin does not seem like the type to let any man sleep with his wife, even the king. My theory is when Aerys slept with Joanna Lannister, he made Tywin agree because he told Tywin he was just trying to have a daughter that Rhaegar could then marry. Tywin tolerated Aerys sleeping with Joanna because he thought he was raising the next queen, which is a very good position to be in. However, Aerys then pulls the rug out from under their agreement when he refuses to honor their agreement. Tywin, angered by the refusal of Aerys to honor his deal, then does what he should have done years ago when Aerys slept with his wife: he resigns from the Handship and goes home.


5. Why does Tywin hate Tyrion? A New Hypothesis:


Why then, if Jaime and Cersei are secret Targaryens, does Tywin repeatedly say that Tyrion is "no son of mine?" It is because he blames himself for Joanna's death. Tywin has long believed himself to be the (forgive my exaggeration) greatest Lannister of all time. Surely, he thought, his own son would at least equal Aerys' own child. But instead, Tywin's son is not only a dwarf, but he also kills Joanna. Tywin's seed killed the love of his life. In my opinion, Tywin's hatred of Tyrion is really a transference of his own guilt for causing his wife's death.


6. Like Father, like son:


Tyrion has his father's great mind for scheming, and has so far proven to be Tywin's equal in that regard. However, Jaime and Cersei have not. Cersei, like Aerys, has proven to anger the only people who actually like her family. (Her treatment of the Tyrells is actually very much like Aerys' treatment of the Lannisters, as she refuses to marry her child off to a Tyrell. One does wonder who she wanted Joffrey or Tommen to marry.) As well as this, Jaime actually has three similarities to Rhaegar, his possible half-brother. Both were great swordsmen. Both fell in love with the wrong women. (Interestingly, both were intended for Elia Martell at some point, but neither truly loved her.) And lastly, both stole the woman of Robert Baratheon.


7. Implications:


What this all means is that with the exception of Robert Baratheon, every other king on the Iron Throne in "A Song of Ice and Fire" is actually a secret Targaryen, keeping the old ways going. Joffrey certainly acted exactly like a mad Targaryen. (He is called by one person "Aerys the Third".) Moreover, the irony would be quite palpable if Daenerys comes to Westeros and kills Jaime, Cersei and their children to restore Targaryen rule. However, she would then learn that not only were the Targaryens secretly still in charge, she was now a kinslayer, and her reign was now doomed to be replaced, perhaps by a remorseful Tyrion, who hates her for the slaughter of his beloved brother, or his niece and nephew's (presumed) horrible death.



Now this is all just my own ideas, so feel free to comment on them.


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This may be taking it too literally, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt. Also, I forgot the quotes I want, so feel free to point out the holes in my arguments. Here are my reasons that it is possible Jaime and Cersei are actually the children of Aerys Targaryen, and Tyrion is the only real child of Tywin Lannister:

No,i think this is a stretch.I like fan made theories,but sometimes things are what they seem.

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2. Tyrek, Tytos, Tygett, Tywin... Jaime?:

It seems that many Lannisters have the "Ty-" prefix to their first name. (I realize that plenty don't, but still, keep in mind that I don't know anyone outside the Westerlands that has a name that starts with "Ty-." And considering that Jaime is the heir to Casterly Rock, it seems natural that Tywin would give Jaime a very Westerlands-ish name. Instead, he gave him a name that could fit anywhere. Instead, Tyrion is the Lannister who gets the traditional "Ty-" prefix. Do I think Tywin named him thus to acknowledge his Lannister bloodline? No. I think George RR Martin did. And as a final point, what was the name of the only woman who truly loved Tyrion? Tysha. Once again, that prefix comes up.

Jason Lannister -> Jaime Lannister. We also have a Janei Lannister, sounding similar.

Also, Jaime might have been some sort of variant on Jeyne, Tywin's mother, or Joanna, who was a Lannister by birth herself.

Tytos himself was only a third son, so it isn't strange to see Lannisters give the Ty-prefix to younger children.

As to other, non-Lannister, characters with Ty:

  • Tyanna, of Pentos

Tyana Wylde

Tybero Istarion

Tybolt Crakehall (though granted, he most likely was named for a Lannister)

Tybolt Hetherspoon (same as the Crakehall)

Tycho Nestoris, of Braavos

Ty, a steward at the Night's Watch

Tybalt, a maester from the Citadel

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This may be taking it too literally, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt. Also, I forgot the quotes I want, so feel free to point out the holes in my arguments. Here are my reasons that it is possible Jaime and Cersei are actually the children of Aerys Targaryen, and Tyrion is the only real child of Tywin Lannister:

7. Implications:

What this all means is that with the exception of Robert Baratheon, every other king on the Iron Throne in "A Song of Ice and Fire" is actually a secret Targaryen, keeping the old ways going. Joffrey certainly acted exactly like a mad Targaryen. (He is called by one person "Aerys the Third".) Moreover, the irony would be quite palpable if Daenerys comes to Westeros and kills Jaime, Cersei and their children to restore Targaryen rule. However, she would then learn that not only were the Targaryens secretly still in charge, she was now a kinslayer, and her reign was now doomed to be replaced, perhaps by a remorseful Tyrion, who hates her for the slaughter of his beloved brother, or his niece and nephew's (presumed) horrible death.

I'm willing to believe that.

After reading many crackpot theories about Tyrion being a secret Targ', it occurred to me that it seemed more likely (and sooo ironic) that the secret Targs would be the twins Jaime and Cersei... There's the incest thing, and also the Targ-like madness of Cersei... And all those Tywin lines about Tyrion seem to suggest that there is something to figure out about Tywin's children...

Also, as you pointed out, the implications would be fantastic.

I also like the fact that so few people buy it.

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To Rhaenys_Targaryen:


I will admit, you have a good point, noting all of the characters who are either Lannisters and have a name that does not begin with the prefix "Ty-", and those who have the prefix and are not Lannisters. However, the fact of the matter is that a disproportionate number of Lannisters have the "Ty-" prefix on their name. Two others have something close to it, as their names are "Tion" and "Titus". (I admit plenty do not, but still, it seems an odd coincidence. The only other families that have such similar names are the Targaryens and the Freys. In their cases it is acknowledged that it was intentional.) It just seems to me that it is possible that George RR Martin wants the audience to associate the "Ty-" prefix with at least the Westerlands. (Note that two of the characters you mentioned, Tybalt the maester and Ty of the Night's Watch, could be from the Westerlands.) I think that this could be a subtle clue that Jaime and Cersei are not true Lannisters. And there is one final point I want to make. I forgot to say it last time.



8. Cersei is looking out for her "valonqar":


In "A Feast for Crows," the readers learn that Cersei believes that she will be murdered by her "valonqar", which is Valyrian for her "little brother", after her children die. Later, Maester Aemon notes that in another prophecy, translated from High Valyrian, it is possible to believe a prophesied male figure (The Prince that was Promised), is really a woman (Daenerys). Thus, it is possible that "valonqar" is actually gender-neutral. You know who is coming for Cersei and her kids (in theory)? Daenerys. And if Cersei is actually the daughter of Aerys Targaryen, this would make Daenerys her little sister. To put two and two together, her valonqar.



I realize all this is probably wrong, but it's a fun hypothesis. As well as this, it would be ironic as hell to think that two people associated with the evils of House Lannister (Joffrey and Cersei), are in fact just more mad Targaryens.


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This may be taking it too literally, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt. Also, I forgot the quotes I want, so feel free to point out the holes in my arguments. Here are my reasons that it is possible Jaime and Cersei are actually the children of Aerys Targaryen, and Tyrion is the only real child of Tywin Lannister:

1. Tyrion has many Targaryen-like features:

Like the fact that Tywin favors Jaime and Cersei over Tyrion, these Targaryen features are a red herring, hiding the fact that Tyrion is Tywin's only (legitimate) child. Actually, the very Lannister-looking Jaime and Cersei are the secret Targaryens. This is not evidence for Jaime and Cersei being Targaryens, but I think it should be addressed.

2. Tyrek, Tytos, Tygett, Tywin... Jaime?:

It seems that many Lannisters have the "Ty-" prefix to their first name. (I realize that plenty don't, but still, keep in mind that I don't know anyone outside the Westerlands that has a name that starts with "Ty-." And considering that Jaime is the heir to Casterly Rock, it seems natural that Tywin would give Jaime a very Westerlands-ish name. Instead, he gave him a name that could fit anywhere. Instead, Tyrion is the Lannister who gets the traditional "Ty-" prefix. Do I think Tywin named him thus to acknowledge his Lannister bloodline? No. I think George RR Martin did. And as a final point, what was the name of the only woman who truly loved Tyrion? Tysha. Once again, that prefix comes up.

3. Jaime and Cersei's incest:

I know incest isn't genetic, but in many cultural storytelling traditions, children gain personal traits of their parents. And nothing is more Targaryen than sleeping with your sister. Speaking of which....

4. A Sister for Rhaegar:

It seems that from the start, it seems that two points need to be noticed. Rhaegar lacked a sister, who he would have traditionally married. Moreover, Tywin seems to have constantly told Cersei that she would be Rhaegar's queen. Even at the time that Tyrion was born (Cersei was only around nine years old), Tywin declined an offer of marriage between Oberyn and Cersei because she was going to marry Rhaegar. My theory is this. Tywin does not seem like the type to let any man sleep with his wife, even the king. My theory is when Aerys slept with Joanna Lannister, he made Tywin agree because he told Tywin he was just trying to have a daughter that Rhaegar could then marry. Tywin tolerated Aerys sleeping with Joanna because he thought he was raising the next queen, which is a very good position to be in. However, Aerys then pulls the rug out from under their agreement when he refuses to honor their agreement. Tywin, angered by the refusal of Aerys to honor his deal, then does what he should have done years ago when Aerys slept with his wife: he resigns from the Handship and goes home.

5. Why does Tywin hate Tyrion? A New Hypothesis:

Why then, if Jaime and Cersei are secret Targaryens, does Tywin repeatedly say that Tyrion is "no son of mine?" It is because he blames himself for Joanna's death. Tywin has long believed himself to be the (forgive my exaggeration) greatest Lannister of all time. Surely, he thought, his own son would at least equal Aerys' own child. But instead, Tywin's son is not only a dwarf, but he also kills Joanna. Tywin's seed killed the love of his life. In my opinion, Tywin's hatred of Tyrion is really a transference of his own guilt for causing his wife's death.

6. Like Father, like son:

Tyrion has his father's great mind for scheming, and has so far proven to be Tywin's equal in that regard. However, Jaime and Cersei have not. Cersei, like Aerys, has proven to anger the only people who actually like her family. (Her treatment of the Tyrells is actually very much like Aerys' treatment of the Lannisters, as she refuses to marry her child off to a Tyrell. One does wonder who she wanted Joffrey or Tommen to marry.) As well as this, Jaime actually has three similarities to Rhaegar, his possible half-brother. Both were great swordsmen. Both fell in love with the wrong women. (Interestingly, both were intended for Elia Martell at some point, but neither truly loved her.) And lastly, both stole the woman of Robert Baratheon.

7. Implications:

What this all means is that with the exception of Robert Baratheon, every other king on the Iron Throne in "A Song of Ice and Fire" is actually a secret Targaryen, keeping the old ways going. Joffrey certainly acted exactly like a mad Targaryen. (He is called by one person "Aerys the Third".) Moreover, the irony would be quite palpable if Daenerys comes to Westeros and kills Jaime, Cersei and their children to restore Targaryen rule. However, she would then learn that not only were the Targaryens secretly still in charge, she was now a kingslayer, and her reign was now doomed to be replaced, perhaps by a remorseful Tyrion, who hates her for the slaughter of his beloved brother, or his niece and nephew's (presumed) horrible death.

Now this is all just my own ideas, so feel free to comment on them.

Okay, let us consider whatever you said is right.

Jaime has inherited more features from Tywin's brother.

And you're forgetting Kevan Lannister and Genna Lannister also don't have the prefix "Ty-" in their name.

About that incest thing, Joanna and Tywin were cousins which was also kind of incest.

Tyrion was cunning like Tywin and Cersei was power hungry like Tywin. The only difference is that Tywin does it in the name of his family and Cersei for herself. Family name meant everything to Tywin. The only thing he gave any shit about is what other people things about his family. He wouldn't have tolerated all those rumours about Jaime and Cersei and try to hide it, if they weren't his own children. If Tyrion was Tywin's only son then he would have married him before and make sure the Lannister had a heir. He would have forced Tyrion and do everything to get him a grandson because then that baby would have been the ONLY TRUE LANNISTER HEIR. Do you really think Tywin Lannister would let the Lannister kingdom depend on the hope that one day his step-son Jaime would leave King's Guard and would father a son who'll be known as a Lannister while, he could have forced his own little dwarf to get married and father a son ?

And Genna might also have said that to Tywin because, he was ashamed of calling Tyrion his son. She might have meant that even if Tywin hates Tyrion, he is more like him ( Tywin ) than Jaime is. Jaime was Tywin's son but he was never so ambitious. May be she was trying to indicate Jaime won't take Tywin's legacy forward, it's Tyrion who'll. We can say that she said it so that he behaves a bit less harsh with Tyrion. And if not anyone else, Varys would have known that Cersei and Jaime are Targarayen.

And if, Jaime and Cersei are Targayen then the whole concept about three Targaryens are needed for dragons to be born would have affected really badly and it would have been changed. Maester Aemon would have seen it somehow that there are more than three Targaryen for dragons to be born.

Though, whatever, you pointed was mind blowing. But, I believe that Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei are all Tywin's children.

And no matter, what we guess, Martin will finish the story the way he likes.

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  • 3 weeks later...

If Jamie isn't Tywins, than it would be weird to want Jaime to inhert the Rock, wouldn't it be?

it does seem weird, but it could be a gesture from Tywin to Joanna, cause he loved her so much, he would rather have joannas son as the lord than to have kevan or some other brother.

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it does seem weird, but it could be a gesture from Tywin to Joanna, cause he loved her so much, he would rather have joannas son as the lord than to have kevan or some other brother.

And yet, Tywin hated Aerys, and would have had to suffer through the fact that the woman he loved had slept with another man. And that woman has now been dead for more than 20 years..

All of that doesn't sound like arguments in favor of Tywin wanting Jaime to inherit while knowing that Jaime wasn't his own blood.

No, if there's any child of Tywins who's not actually Tywins, I'd say it's Tyrion. A better case can be made for him.

Of course, I'd prefer to have the three Lannister-siblings just be Tywins :) Otherwise you'd have secret Targs everywhere.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Tywin is not Jaimie's Father

Jaimie's dream proofs it, i do not care who is (moonboy maybe - for all Targ "haters" here) but not Tywin

Dreams don't prove anything. All the proposed "proof" of Tywin not being Jamie and Cercei's father is quite a big stretch. Both of them look like Lannisters, and I see no motive for Tywin to set them up to inherit all the Lannister riches if they weren't Lannisters. Remember Tywin, and the rest of the Lannister's are very proud of their family.

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  • 1 month later...

4. A Sister for Rhaegar:

It seems that from the start, it seems that two points need to be noticed. Rhaegar lacked a sister, who he would have traditionally married. Moreover, Tywin seems to have constantly told Cersei that she would be Rhaegar's queen. Even at the time that Tyrion was born (Cersei was only around nine years old), Tywin declined an offer of marriage between Oberyn and Cersei because she was going to marry Rhaegar. My theory is this. Tywin does not seem like the type to let any man sleep with his wife, even the king. My theory is when Aerys slept with Joanna Lannister, he made Tywin agree because he told Tywin he was just trying to have a daughter that Rhaegar could then marry. Tywin tolerated Aerys sleeping with Joanna because he thought he was raising the next queen, which is a very good position to be in. However, Aerys then pulls the rug out from under their agreement when he refuses to honor their agreement.

For the life of me, and in the context of this story, I can't see how raising someone else's child as your own "is a very good position to be in". It basically means that you're letting another man f*ck your wife, you end up devoting all your effort rasing someone who is not your blood, they have no solid ties to you, and worse, if they become your heir your property does not go to your blood (disinheriting any biological children further down the inheritance chain). It sounds like a bad idea throughout. Tywin, as far as I know, was no eunuch and would not let that happen.

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