Others vs Wall

[Black Crow]

I totally agree that the Others' agenda seems more in line with herding the humans rather than annihilating them. Tormund tells Jon that the Others/wights "never came in force" and merely "nibbled along the edges" of Tormund's group during the trip to the Wall. Why not attack in force?

Just as Bran, Jojen and Meera were herded to the Children...

[Eyron]

Craster wasn't sacrificing them. His sons are White Walkers.

Are you sure?

He did substitute the boys with sheep (or was it goats?) when he had them... I can't wait for the Others to attack with their army of ice-sheep, they are not as fierce as the ice-spiders of old but they are organized.

No seriously, you may be right, we will see eventually. Maybe.

[Wightman]

If the Fist of The First Men was a herding action, that dog needs to be put down!

[Black Crow]

Gilly was grumbling about the sheep being given up and concerned that her rabbits were going to be next because they were running short of livestock. Providing food for the White Walkers seemed to be an ongoing affair, while the male children were only being given up as and when.

The business about Craster's sons was very explicit:

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

[Black Crow]

If the Fist of The First Men was a herding action, that dog needs to be put down!

Nah, the Free Folk were being herded. The White Walkers were just clearing the way.

[Eyron]

Gilly was grumbling about the sheep being given up and concerned that her rabbits were going to be next because they were running short of livestock. Providing food for the White Walkers seemed to be an ongoing affair, while the male children were only being given up as and when.

The business about Craster's sons was very explicit:

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

Oh I had forgotten that. She definitely believes they are his sons then.

Just look at that quote for a while...

The white cold's rising...

I think someone else used this expression too, was it Old Nan? I think the wording is a little strange, it seems that a wildling would use it since they call them the white walkers, but south of the wall it should be called something else. Maybe Old Nan is a wildling.

And very off topic but, she came to Winterfell to nurse a Brandon Stark, we don't know what happened to him.

... bones don't lie

This has been mentioned in variations a few times, by Aeron i.e There is truth in the bones. And that the bones remember has been repeated from numerous characters.

I think it is a clue from the author that some bones need examining or airing... But what truth is that? And what bones should we pay heed to?

[alienarea]

Eddard's bones of course.

[kissdbyfire]

Craster wasn't sacrificing them. His sons are White Walkers.

Well, they weren't born White Walkers, were they? I may be misinterpreting the whole thing, but I understood the 'sacrifice' as Craster offering his sons to the White Walkers, and that is how they became WW themselves...

[Black Crow]

Agreed, its just that until we had that bit (which people keep forgetting/overlooking) about "Craster's sons" it was a reasonable presumption that they were being sacrificed - dead.

[kissdbyfire]

Oh I had forgotten that. She definitely believes they are his sons then.

Just look at that quote for a while...

The white cold's rising...

I think someone else used this expression too, was it Old Nan? I think the wording is a little strange, it seems that a wildling would use it since they call them the white walkers, but south of the wall it should be called something else. Maybe Old Nan is a wildling.

Here are all mentions to 'white cold', in all five books.

AGoT - none

ACoK - chapter 23, Jon:

“Is it Craster who frightens you, Gilly?”

“For the baby, not for me. If it’s a girl, that’s not so bad, she’ll grow a few years and he’ll marry her. But Nella says it’s to be a boy, and she’s had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That’s why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep’s gone too. Next it will be dogs, till . . . ” She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly.

“What gods?” Jon was remembering that they’d seen no boys in Craster’s Keep, nor men either, save Craster himself.

“The cold gods,” she said. “The ones in the night. The white shadows.”

ASoS - chapter 33, Samwell:

"Nights were the bad time. When it got dark. And cold.

There had been no attacks while they had been at Craster’s, neither wights nor Others. Nor would there be, Craster said. “A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to that Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round. He never listened, no more’n you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. That won’t help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods.”

Gilly had spoken of the white cold as well, and she’d told them what sort of offerings Craster made to his gods. Sam had wanted to kill him when he heard.There are no laws beyond the Wall, he reminded himself, and Craster’s a friend to the Watch."

----

Gilly was crying. “Me and the babe. Please. I’ll be your wife, like I was Craster’s. Please, ser crow. He’s a boy, just like Nella said he’d be. If you don’t take him,they will.”

“They?” said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, “They. They. They.”

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

AFfC - none

ADwD - none

[FanTasy]

Agreed, its just that until we had that bit (which people keep forgetting/overlooking) about "Craster's sons" it was a reasonable presumption that they were being sacrificed - dead.

Just a question: have we met some male Children of the Forest? They seem to be female, the lot of them. Anyone a quote or reference which indicates that there were male children also? If not, what could that mean if you take in mind that Craster supposedly provided the White Walkers with children, but only 'sacrificed' sons? I first thought that was just that creepy Craster, providing himself with a harem by keeping the daughters and disposing of the sons, also to keep him safe from the evil ones . But could Craster's keep be something more sinister, some kind of breeding facility?

[kissdbyfire]

I was just re-reading the bits above and thinking about the whole WW thing, and now I have questions...

As I've said, I interpret 'Craster's sacrifice' to mean he offers his sons to the WW, and the boys become WW themselves. We also know that any animal, regardless of species, killed by the WW turn into wights (or are 'wightified', as someone said - love this btw). So, can the WW decide who becomes a WW and who is to be wightified? Only young boys are turned into WW? Or any male can? Or can anyone become a WW, and there is some 'merit scale' where prospective WW must somehow earn the position? Can a wight be 'promoted' to WW? I think not, but now I'm really intrigued by the whole thing...

[Serie]

... bones don't lie

This has been mentioned in variations a few times, by Aeron i.e There is truth in the bones. And that the bones remember has been repeated from numerous characters.

I think it is a clue from the author that some bones need examining or airing... But what truth is that? And what bones should we pay heed to?

now that might be a terrible misunderstanding but I'll give it a try:

The old woman says:The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie.

obviously her bones are aching due to cold because she is old. This is just an expression, no hidden messages here, I think we all agree to that, right?

But what about the seventy-nine deserters' bones? Maybe there is some truth to these bones when the living men of the Night Watch are not true anymore...

Eddard's bones of course.

with all the respect I think ned's bones have nothing to do with this. But really, where's ned's bones?

[kissdbyfire]

Just a question: have we met some male Children of the Forest? They seem to be female, the lot of them. Anyone a quote or reference which indicates that there were male children also? If not, what could that mean if you take in mind that Craster supposedly provided the White Walkers with children, but only 'sacrificed' sons? I first thought that was just that creepy Craster, providing himself with a harem by keeping the daughters and disposing of the sons, also to keep him safe from the evil ones . But could Craster's keep be something more sinister, some kind of breeding facility?

Interesting. Maybe ending up with a harem wasn't Craster's goal but a consequence of having to provide male offspring to the WW.

I don't recall any male CotF at the top off my head, but will do a search now.

WW all male, CotF all female? If this is the case, Maybe this imbalance Is something that needs to be sorted.

[mor2]

sorry, 'CotF' ? nm

I doubt that the sex of the children matters to the Wight's, during the attack on the fist we seen Wight of every shape and kind, human or otherwise, plus we got the Wight/Other that supposedly lured the night king.

[kissdbyfire]

sorry, 'CotF' ? nm

Sorry, Children of the Forest.

[Serie]

sorry, 'CotF' ? nm

I doubt that the sex of the children matters to the Wight's, during the attack on the fist we seen Wight of every shape and kind, human or otherwise, plus we got the Wight/Other that supposedly lured the night king.

I'll try to interpret KissdbyFire's post. Maybe what's implied is that CoTFs are only female and Others only male because there is another connection between those two?

[kissdbyfire]

Just a question: have we met some male Children of the Forest? They seem to be female, the lot of them. Anyone a quote or reference which indicates that there were male children also? If not, what could that mean if you take in mind that Craster supposedly provided the White Walkers with children, but only 'sacrificed' sons? I first thought that was just that creepy Craster, providing himself with a harem by keeping the daughters and disposing of the sons, also to keep him safe from the evil ones . But could Craster's keep be something more sinister, some kind of breeding facility?

I think they are not mentioned much. But there are mentions to greenseers, green men etc. Also, the Wiki describes the Children as "smaller than men with nut-brown skin and large ears, they usually had large golden eyes, but a few had green or red eyes" - a different look, but humanoid, so I think it's safe to assume they need male and female to reproduce...

[kissdbyfire]

I'll try to interpret KissdbyFire's post. Maybe what's implied is that CoTFs are only female and Others only male because there is another connection between those two?

Something along those lines did cross my mind, but even I don't think it makes much sense.

:-)

[kissdbyfire]

sorry, 'CotF' ? nm

I doubt that the sex of the children matters to the Wight's, during the attack on the fist we seen Wight of every shape and kind, human or otherwise, plus we got the Wight/Other that supposedly lured the night king.

Not wights, but is there any mention of a female White Walker?