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(still reading ACok) Some questions for the Stark couple.


Joyce Wang

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I was shocked when Ned Stark went to the queen and warned her to run for her life. And i knew since then that Eddard Stark could only live long if he stayed in Winterfell. And I thought Catelyn was smarter, yet she asked Robb to make peace with the Lannisters and trade Jamie with two girls. I mean, can't the husband and the wife see the big picture of what's happening? For Ned, being nice to his enemies means being nasty and cruel to his own blood and flesh. His stupid kindness rendered one of his daughters a hostage and the other a fugitive. For Cat, If Robb loses the war, what is the point of bringing the girls back? so that they can die in Winterfell rather than the king's landing? and if she cares so much for her children, why doen't she go back to Bran and Rickon and help the poor boys out?

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This is a good question. Here are my views on the subject:

The reason why Ned went to Cersei to warn her was because he knew that the moment Robert found out about his children being bastards, he would put not only Cersei, but the children to death as well. Ned was disgusted by the murder of the Targaryen children, whom he viewed as innocent and not to blame for the crimes of their predecessors. In this case, Cersei's children are not at fault here, they didn't ask to be born out of incest, and as such they're guiltless in Ned's eyes (not to mention the fact that the mere thought of putting children to death makes Ned sick). When we extrapolate this to his daughters: He is adamant in going to his death with his honor intact until Varys makes it very clear to him that in doing so he would be condemning Sansa and Arya to die a traitor's death, which is when his opinions shift and he admits to a crime in order to save them. The fact that the whole thing backfired on him is more Joffrey's fault than his own (let us remember that even Cersei was against the idea of executing him).

As for Catelyn, her choices are never easy. When she staid behind in Winterfell to care for Bran as Robb went off to war and left Rickon to care pretty much for himself, people reproached her. When she followed Robb to war and left Bran and Rickon in Winterfell, people reproached her. I've often heard that mothers don't have favorites among their children, but that they simply pour their love onto the one that is in most need at the moment (a sick one, a sad one, etc). At this point Catelyn was certain that Bran and Rickon were more than safe in Winterfell, surrounded by their bannermen, Maester Luwin, Ser Rodrik, etc. I'd say "the point" of wanting Sansa and Arya to return even if Robb lost the war is quite simply that she is a mother, and she's gonna want her daughters with her and safe. Catelyn had no idea that bad things were going down at Winterfell at that time, she found out of it rather late into the game. And I'm sure that if you ask any mother out there, of course they're gonna prefer to have their children "die by their side" than die off in some place where she's not even sure if they'll get proper burial. Trading Jaime in for Sansa and Arya loses them a huge leverage in the conflict, as Robb sees it, but to a mother it's a no-brainer.

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what you said is pretty convincing. but I still believe you can only be lenient with your enemies when you have the upper hand for sure, especially in a situation of life or death. I don't mean Ned Stark was ignorant of the consequences. He might know it all along and he still went to Cersei only because he was really convinced the victory was his. He didn't realise the benevolence was premature and fatal. He trusted someone (the little finger for one) he shouldn't, which misled him to be so certain of his victory, and then paid by his death. I read about 200 pages of A Clash of Kings, I'd say Tyrion is a much more shrewd game-player. At least he simply didn't trust anyone. Ned's death tells us we do get weighed down by honor and lose our flexibility, which is not very good.

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The way I see it, Ned is simply the kind of guy that would rather let hostilities end than keep feeding the flames of war.

Sure, he underestimated the bloodlust of Joffrey and the lust for power of Cersei and Petyr Baelish. But the alternative was, in a sense, becoming them.

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what you said is pretty convincing. but I still believe you can only be lenient with your enemies when you have the upper hand for sure, especially in a situation of life or death. I don't mean Ned Stark was ignorant of the consequences. He might know it all along and he still went to Cersei only because he was really convinced the victory was his. He didn't realise the benevolence was premature and fatal. He trusted someone (the little finger for one) he shouldn't, which misled him to be so certain of his victory, and then paid by his death. I read about 200 pages of A Clash of Kings, I'd say Tyrion is a much more shrewd game-player. At least he simply didn't trust anyone. Ned's death tells us we do get weighed down by honor and lose our flexibility, which is not very good.

I think what you say is true, but it also shows that you have a completely opposite world-view to Ned, to whom his honor was more precious than his life (whether this is a good thing is open to debate). Of course, the irony is that Ned forfeited his honor anyways, and got nothing of it.

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what you said is pretty convincing. but I still believe you can only be lenient with your enemies when you have the upper hand for sure, especially in a situation of life or death. I don't mean Ned Stark was ignorant of the consequences. He might know it all along and he still went to Cersei only because he was really convinced the victory was his. He didn't realise the benevolence was premature and fatal. He trusted someone (the little finger for one) he shouldn't, which misled him to be so certain of his victory, and then paid by his death. I read about 200 pages of A Clash of Kings, I'd say Tyrion is a much more shrewd game-player. At least he simply didn't trust anyone. Ned's death tells us we do get weighed down by honor and lose our flexibility, which is not very good.

I think we can say that for a moment Ned did have the upper hand in this matter. At the time, Robert was away hunting and both him and Ned expected him to return safely to King's Landing, and at his arrival Ned was to drop this nuclear bomb. The only thing that got in the way of the original plan and turned into hesitation for Ned, was Robert's wound. Had Robert returned to KL safely, Ned would've gone to him immediately to tell him about his children's illegitimacy and the punishment would've come swiftly had Cersei and the kids not taken Ned's advice. Ned didn't make a stupid move or plan. His plan of action was clear and correct from the standpoint of someone who wants to avoid useless murder. The only thing that ruined everything for everyone was that boar.

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I think we can say that for a moment Ned did have the upper hand in this matter. At the time, Robert was away hunting and both him and Ned expected him to return safely to King's Landing, and at his arrival Ned was to drop this nuclear bomb. The only thing that got in the way of the original plan and turned into hesitation for Ned, was Robert's wound. Had Robert returned to KL safely, Ned would've gone to him immediately to tell him about his children's illegitimacy and the punishment would've come swiftly had Cersei and the kids not taken Ned's advice. Ned didn't make a stupid move or plan. His plan of action was clear and correct from the standpoint of someone who wants to avoid useless murder. The only thing that ruined everything for everyone was that boar.

Well, I wouldn't say the boar ruined everything for everyone, At least the queen benefited from it. Ironically, Cersei was the one who enjoyed eating it.

I didn't say Ned's intention of saving lives and ending useless murder is wrong. I just feel there must be a smarter way, a less politically naive way than going to Cersei.

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