what else/more could the Blackfish have done?

[Wightman]

It's always annoyed me how Robb and the Blackfish blame Edmure for their big blunder. if they wanted him to stay in Riverrun and let Tywin pass, they should've told him so. They didn't, so it's their fault.

They told him to stay at Riverrun right? Or is my memory deserting me? (again!)

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

I usually like Stefan's articles and posts, but as I said there, I completely disagree with his views because they are based on two false premises:

Premise A: That BF knew that he could count on Jaime's word that he and his men wouldn't be executed. This is obviously untrue, and even Daven points that out to Jaime. We know that Jaime intended to keep his word, but only because we were inside his head.

Premise B: That the Lannisters cannot be defeated. That looked false even in AFFC, but even more in ADWD, which makes even more clear how the Lannister army is melting away. In addition to that, most of the Freys are in the North, and this Lannister/Frey/Bolton unholy alliance has to deal with Stannis gaining strength, Aegon appearing, Ironborn raids and the BWB, all that without having enough food for their men, which is not a problem for BF, and the arrival of winter.

And at the end of ADWD, the one man that could bring any hope of stability for the Lannisters is murdered.

Even if it would be hard to have the Kingdom of the North and the Trident back, there were definitively other alternatives, and the Lannisters would have been forced to give up the siege because of more pressing concerns eventually.

I don't see how the author's views are based solely on these two premises? I agree that he could hardly trust Jaime Lannister to stay true to his word, but it seems like the bulk of the text concerning the siege has to do with abandoning the smallfolk, which is done before Jaime arrives at the scene. The criticism against Premise B I just don't understand. You say the unholy alliance has to deal with, among other things, Stannis gaining strength, but the Lannisters had quite recently gained the Tyrells and many other bannermen who were previously loyal to Stannis. Aegon and the death of Kevan Lannister would have been a factor in Blackfish's strategy, only if he could see into the future.

None of these premises has anything to do with Brynden's treatment of Edmure, either.

Also, not really relevant to the above, but a pet peeve of mine: Catelyn has told Brynden that she doesn't trust Jon. When Brynden talks to Jaime, he makes the assumption that Tywin had something to do with Jon becoming LC. Therefore: "Catelyn was right, rawr rawr." What. The. Hell. I hate when people do that kind of thing.

Who wouldn't flee at the sight of a sweating naked man with a bloody sword, trying to catch his breath?

What kind of bloody sword are we talking about here? Not that I wouldn't run either way, probably, but for very different reasons.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Because the Lannisters had 20 times his numbers, and could bring more if necessary. They weren't going to extend the siege due to the lack of food - Jaime was going to storm the castle it if his plan with Edmure hadn't work, and I don't see how the Blackfish could've succeeded in repelling his forces. That's the only realistic hope Brynden had - killing much more of the Lannisters than the number of is own troops, but the defenders were doomed in any case. Do you think the Lannister forces woul've just sat thereuntil they run out of food and then pack and go home?

So they had 20 times his numbers. That doesn't makes it a foregone conclusion. The chances may be bad, but they exist. All the time it is mentioned that one to ten is an even chance during a siege. Riverrun is a very strong castle. One to twenty is not likely, but doable. And still a better chance than trusting in Lannister mercy and Frey honor.

[Verboten]

HE IS NOT HOMO:( , IMHO i believed that Blackfish might have been inlove with Cat's Mother. We will find out in the future but please do not say he is HOMO so many homo on this series already, Why dont we just make them all homo if blackfish turns up to be HOMO.

HOMOSEXUALS ARE INVADING FLEE FOR YOUR LIFE!!! Seriously get out.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Because the Lannisters had 20 times his numbers, and could bring more if necessary. They weren't going to extend the siege due to the lack of food - Jaime was going to storm the castle it if his plan with Edmure hadn't work, and I don't see how the Blackfish could've succeeded in repelling his forces. That's the only realistic hope Brynden had - killing much more of the Lannisters than the number of is own troops, but the defenders were doomed in any case. Do you think the Lannister forces woul've just sat thereuntil they run out of food and then pack and go home?

Riverrun is pretty hard to storm- the castle becomes pretty much an island, and in ACOK only Gregor managed to pass through. It's quite possible that it would end like the Siege of Storm's End during the Rebellion, with the difference they wouldn't have to eat rats.

[mediocre cheese]

Key point here, it was visible that all the riverlords had surrendered and were offered generous terms. Paege, Vance, bracken, piper were all confirmed in all their lands and titles by tywin after the red wedding. This idea that surrendering would be foolish (and edmure was weak for doing so) is wrong. In fact edwyn frey specifically mentions that bryden is the only thing blocking a surrender, that once he's dead the other men will surrender rather than fight to death. Brynden is the exception, every other lord surrenders rather than lose their family and people in a hopeless cause. Brynden refuses because unlike the other riverlords he doesn't care about the fate of his people or his remaining family (edmure) he solely cares about his honor and reputation as a warrior.

Every other riverlord surrendered to the lannisters after the red wedding, and they were not subsequently harmed. The blackfish was well aware of this, as most of these lords were right outside his walls with the freys and lannisters.

[David Selig]

They told him to stay at Riverrun right? Or is my memory deserting me? (again!)

They told Edmure to hold the castle, which he did. Blaming him later for not being a mind reader was really childish from both Robb and the Blackfish.

So they had 20 times his numbers. That doesn't makes it a foregone conclusion. The chances may be bad, but they exist. All the time it is mentioned that one to ten is an even chance during a siege. Riverrun is a very strong castle. One to twenty is not likely, but doable. And still a better chance than trusting in Lannister mercy and Frey honor.

Let's say the defenders somehow win the first battle (extremely unlikely). Then what? The Lannisters would leave Riverrun alone? The defenders were doomed for all practical purposes.

Even the notoriously ruthless Tywin has kept his word and allowed enemies to take the Black after the Robert's rebellion - some of the guys in the Night's Watch (like Thorne) came there exactly this way. So there are precedents for the deal the Blackfish was offered in which the Lannisters kept their word. Not to mention that many other Riverlands lords have surrendered after the Red Wedding and weren't betrayed. Brynden's obstinacy was unreasonable and emotional.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Every other riverlord surrendered to the lannisters after the red wedding, and they were not subsequently harmed. The blackfish was well aware of this, as most of these lords were right outside his walls with the freys and lannisters.

Even the notoriously ruthless Tywin has kept his word and allowed enemies to take the Black after the Robert's rebellion - some of the guys in the Night's Watch (like Thorne) came there exactly this way. So there are precedents for the deal the Blackfish was offered in which the Lannisters kept their word. Not to mention that many other Riverlands lords have surrendered after the Red Wedding and weren't betrayed. Brynden's obstinacy was unreasonable and emotional.

Yes, I said earlier that the Blackfish could hardly trust Jaime, but, as you guys point, he actually had very little reason to distrust him in this instance.

[pansy25]

So many homos? We have like 3... There's a good chance the Blackfish is gay, but that won't stop him from being a badass I assure you :rolleyes:

oh for crying outloud just because he's not married doesn't mean he's homo. Can't a guy be a bachelor and be done with it. Maybe he did fall for a girl a long time ago, some guys are like that. Leave it alone.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Key point here, it was visible that all the riverlords had surrendered and were offered generous terms. Paege, Vance, bracken, piper were all confirmed in all their lands and titles by tywin after the red wedding. This idea that surrendering would be foolish (and edmure was weak for doing so) is wrong. In fact edwyn frey specifically mentions that bryden is the only thing blocking a surrender, that once he's dead the other men will surrender rather than fight to death. Brynden is the exception, every other lord surrenders rather than lose their family and people in a hopeless cause. Brynden refuses because unlike the other riverlords he doesn't care about the fate of his people or his remaining family (edmure) he solely cares about his honor and reputation as a warrior.

Every other riverlord surrendered to the lannisters after the red wedding, and they were not subsequently harmed. The blackfish was well aware of this, as most of these lords were right outside his walls with the freys and lannisters.

But that's exactly the point- all of those are minor lords compared to him, and just the fact that him being alive and refusing to give up is enough to keep some lords like Mallister and Blackwood refusing to bend the knee makes him a huge threat to the Lannisters, and he can't quite expect the same mercy as the likes of Piper and Bracken.

Not to mention the fact that he has a claim to Riverrun makes him even more of a target for the Lannisters and Freys, so much that Genna suggests that Edmure and he should be killed.

And remember that these people not only killed his family, but they even made a point of defiling the corpse and using it as an humiliation tool. BF can't expect mercy, can't expect to get out alive, can't even expect that his corpse will be treated with respect. So, why give up if he still has a chance? Best to wait, fight, and see if some external factor helps them.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

The Blackfish isn't the Lord of anything though...

I hear you on the Frey treatment of Robb. And many people generally distrust Jaime. In this particular situation, however, the surrendering houses seem to be treated fairly well, and Brynden wouldn't be the first big fish (pun slightly intended) to be sent to the wall.

[Stannis the Great]

I reckon he could have outlasted the Lannister siege but the Blackfish wasn't to know that Lannister power was crumbling, Young Griff/Aegon had landed and that Cersei and Marg were imprisoned. Anyway in the end he compromised brilliantly getting the best result for himself and sparing those at Riverrun.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

I thought Edmure did the compromising..? The Blackfish pretty much just gathered up all the food in the area and sat there!

[Stannis the Great]

He basically agreed to obey his liege lord and surrender to the Lannisters and then escaped from Riverrun at night by swimming under a slightly raised portcullis. That way Riverrun is spared and he is free to make mischief for the Freys and Lannisters in the Riverlands or beyond.

[Quint]

It seems to me that the Blackfish is just a warrior, Cat, Hoster, Robb and the other Starks are all thought to be dead through some form of treachery. I can't seem to blame him for his actions, including kicking the smallfolk out because the Lannister's wanted to restore Riverrun to a peaceful state and putting Genna's Frey husband (forget his name) in charge, which can hardly be accomplished if you kill the smallfolk. So I don't think the blackfish put them in any danger by kicking them out. So I would have wanted to go out in a blaze of glory with some lannister and frey blood on my sword if I had no children, family or lands to keep.

[Lummel]

I thought that essay over at the tower of the hand about the blackfish was interesting.

The Blackfish, like Oberyn Martell or Syrio is one of those characters who seems to inspire affection on the board (and presumably among readers generally) way beyond the amount of space they take up in the book or what they actually do.

Whether this reflects deft characterisation on the part of GRRM or an inner need on the part of many readers for Blackfish style characters or some combination of both I don't know.

The Blackfish gets an awful lot of credit for leading Robb's outriders, hitting Hoster's boat with a flaming arrow and being briefly a sympathetic ear for Catelyn, but in this case by holding at at Riverrun all he is doing is preparing to condemn to death the soldiers and civilians gathered in the castle. There is no hope of relief and at that stage of AFFC no reasonable hope of victory or even survival in the face of Lannister power.

But then this is one of the strengths of the series - you can be excited and carried away by characters who act as though life was a song of chivalry and valour, but then you can sit back and evaluate what they actually can achieve as well.

[Silmarien]

You all are HIGHLY underestimating how difficult it is to take a well provisioned, garrisoned castle. Especially one like Riverrun.

The siege would have taken YEARS. The Lannisters already didn't have many troops (they are still heavily outnumbered by the Tyrells and Tarley's forces in KL after the Lannisters return from the Riverlands).

I think the BF could have held Riverrun. Hell, Stannis held Storm's End for what...like a year?

Also, I don't think there's a shred of textual evidence that Robb and The Blackfish "made up" their plan to defeat Tywin while Edmure held Riverrun. I'll grant that it was rather stupid to NOT tell Edmure about it, but it's wild speculation to think Robb just made it up to cover for his mistake with Jeyne Westerling. Not very honorable, and if anything, Robb and the Blackfish are honorable.

[Silmarien]

Key point here, it was visible that all the riverlords had surrendered and were offered generous terms. Paege, Vance, bracken, piper were all confirmed in all their lands and titles by tywin after the red wedding. This idea that surrendering would be foolish (and edmure was weak for doing so) is wrong. In fact edwyn frey specifically mentions that bryden is the only thing blocking a surrender, that once he's dead the other men will surrender rather than fight to death. Brynden is the exception, every other lord surrenders rather than lose their family and people in a hopeless cause. Brynden refuses because unlike the other riverlords he doesn't care about the fate of his people or his remaining family (edmure) he solely cares about his honor and reputation as a warrior.

Every other riverlord surrendered to the lannisters after the red wedding, and they were not subsequently harmed. The blackfish was well aware of this, as most of these lords were right outside his walls with the freys and lannisters.

\

We don't know that the Blackfish ONLY cares about his honor. That is just an assumption.

Let's assume that Jeyne Westerling is present in Riverrun and is carrying Robb Stark's heir. Now what should the Blackfish have done?

[Lummel]

Let's assume that Jeyne Westerling is present in Riverrun and is carrying Robb Stark's heir. Now what should the Blackfish have done?

OK if Jeyne Westerling is pregnant I think there are three potential courses of action

1 - smuggle Jeyne out to a place of relative safety, maybe even out of Westeros, in the period between the Red Wedding and the resumption of war

2 - Make peace with the lannisters after the Red Wedding, bend the knee and have Jeyne bend the knee too. Blackfish presumably has to take the black, Jeyne may have to join the silent sisters or similar

3 - hold out in Riverun and face certain execution as rebels once the castle is taken by the Lannisters

I'm inclined to think that the Blackfish has done precisely what places himself and Jeyne at greatest risk.

[Silmarien]

OK if Jeyne Westerling is pregnant I think there are three potential courses of action

1 - smuggle Jeyne out to a place of relative safety, maybe even out of Westeros, in the period between the Red Wedding and the resumption of war

2 - Make peace with the lannisters after the Red Wedding, bend the knee and have Jeyne bend the knee too. Blackfish presumably has to take the black, Jeyne may have to join the silent sisters or similar

3 - hold out in Riverun and face certain execution as rebels once the castle is taken by the Lannisters

I'm inclined to think that the Blackfish has done precisely what places himself and Jeyne at greatest risk.

I think if Jeyne is pregnant, her child would have been killed (Tansy or infanticide). The Blackfish would have been honor bound to protect her, as his Queen, and as a Knight. That is why I believe Edmure allowed The Blackfish (and possibly Jeyne) to escape.

And loyalty to your king to the last (saving his Queen and child) is not immoral, IMHO. Sending the smallfolk away seems cruel, but The Bloody Mummers and Ser Gregor and his buddies are dead by this point, and the Blackfish would've known about it, too. So they aren't under as much threat as they were when Edmure was the nice guy and let them all hang out in the castle.