The Wall, the Watch and a heresy

[Black Crow]

Hmm ... thinking about a hammer of water (in Eira's post), what would happen if a 700ft wall of ice would melt - by magic or by dragonfire - in a very short time? A devastating tsunami?

Well that's why I pointed out earlier that if it fell the thump would be felt in King's Landing, and why I don't thing blowing the horn or the Watch changing sides or both will cause it to physically collapse or melt. The term should be read as in falling to the attackers, as in "the fall of Rome", in other words it will be captured if the magic laced intoit is unlocked.

[LittleDragon]

Reading this topic, I've got a new idea. Why ice and why so high, why not wood? If we have creatures loving cold, it seems to be logical to make a wall of wood against them and set it on fire when they are coming. But if these creatures are clever, the only thing they need to do is sitting down to the earth and waiting a little bit, the fire will be over soon, they will be not harmed, and than they can continue their way toward man who has no more defence. If you have a wall made of ice, at a certain point of the battle, you can melt it and create a flooding and freeze back your ennemies into an ice cube to let them sleep for another 8000 years. OK, this theory is not well elaborated yet, but this is only a first thought :-)

[Tini]

A Wall made of wood wouldn't regenerate. It was mentioned that the Wall is actually growing because more ice attaches itself to it. It even repairs itself if parts of it melt, drown or bury attackers.

[scurvy]

And in AGoT:

Bran's fist curled around the shiny black arrowhead. "But the children of the forest are all gone now, you said."

"Here they are," said Osha... "North of the Wall, things are different. That's where the children went, and the giants, and the other old races."

My emphasis: Can't get any clearer than that; the children etc.went and took refuge on the other side of the Wall

The other old races could involve the First Men. They want to seek revenge on the Andals and reclaim Westeros Could the First Men be the Others allied with the Children? The Starks have their blood so they must always reside in Winterfell and at the Wall to allow the return and reconquest. I realize I am going pretty far with this argument and i dont yet agree with it but it's possible. Benjen could be redrafted into their cause. Bran and the crannogkids were allowed to pass as they have the blood of the First Men in them. Who else does?

"winter is coming" could be as much a threat of the reconquest as a portent of bad times to come.

[Black Crow]

As I've mentioned before it may be a mistake to think that the term the Others applies to a single group. It could easily encompass the Children, the White Walkers and all those other "old races".

[mor2]

op

your argument is that:

1. we are sure that Children helped to build the wall.

2. The wall was built so long ago that we cant be sure about any thing else.

3. you suggest that the children are the others and the wall built to protect against them.

4. correcting that by saying the COH/others built the wall with them being on the other side.

5. say the watch was originally in league with the Others helping them protect the others until a mutiny and which the changed sizes.

sorry I just cant see it, I got to many arguments against it, starting with simple things like the timeline, the NW forts being on the south etc but let me just use the GRRM doomsday device, if what you saying is true, it means that the all of the lore of the old world GRRM has woven into the story for the past 5 book is a lie, so while your idea would be a huge surprise, a spectacular ending, momento like ending, it would also be the most retarded thing GRRM can do to his creation.

[Black Crow]

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it.

[mor2]

This expert is far more likely to be GRRM way of plugging the holes in that ridicules long 8000 years time span, at which the fans has been nitpicking. iirc there is either a second part to this quote or GRRM expanded on it later saying something about time lines and dates dont exactly come together. since much like languges he adds them when he needs.

ineither case I dont see how it supports you argument, the NW castles, some of which are as old as the Wall are on the south side of the wall, which is unlikely if the NW purpose was to defend the others as you suggest. also according to the timeline, The others has lived with the First men 2K years before and after the long night and the foundation of the wall/NW, untill the andals and the seven came slowly pushing them out of what is now known as the seven kingdoms. Also we know that COF was helping the NW fight the others and was later supplying them with weapons.

[Black Crow]

Its Sam explaining to Jon why the information he's gleaned on the Others from the archives, including the bit about dragonglass, isn't reliable.

The full text reads:

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. The old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-eyes, Knight’s King…we say that you’re the nine-hundred-and-nintey-eighth Lord Commander of the Knight’s Watch, but the oldest list I’ve found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during-“

“Long ago,” Jon broke in…

Classic GRRM interruption there to prevent Sam revealing just how recent the “oldest” records really are, but the importance of this passage is that it originally appears in AFfC Samwell1 and then is repeated word for word in ADwD Jon2 so it must be important.

[LittleDragon]

Maybe runes have importance and Sam can learn them in the Citadel. It seems logical: paperbooks smash in a few periode of time, even pergamen or wood used for keeping writings. But rocks can keep the writing craved in them for much longer periode of time.

I think Jon has made a mistake to interrump Sam. Even though Sam seemd to speak about obvious things, if he is allowed to continue his thread, he could have arrived to a conclusion. but Jon was impatient as usual, so he interrupted Sam, who as usual, became too frightened not only to continue his phrase, but also to continue his thinking. They have missed there something which could have been important and Sam may remember to it later in the Citadel, so maybe we will hear this story once more with another conversation and that time everything will find its logical place. Or not :-)

[mediterraneo]

I like the braveness of the Black Crow theory. It does not convince me completely, but I belive he is starting asking the right questions.

Another point to be added to what we know is that the White Wlakers only appear in the First Men and CotF North of westeros, where the weirdwood stand.

There is no Wall, no Watch and no White Walkers trauma story on Essos, is it?

Maybe it has "just" to do with the might of Valyria but...

It should be noted.

EDIT: I corrected an Essos I wrote Pentos before.

I wanted to add:

And yet its there... and the weirwood portal can only be opened by a man of the Night's Watch, or perhaps by a man of the Nights Watch sworn to the weirwoods, a true man of the Nights Watch.

Jon Snow, and every other Watchmen who sweared to the Old Gods, have sworn their vow NORTH of the wall.

It may just be a happenstance but...

[Black Crow]

Jon Snow, and every other Watchmen who sweared to the Old Gods, have sworn their vow NORTH of the wall.

It may just be a happenstance but...

Very true, I like it. :cool4:

[Lady of Long Lake]

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it.

The Citadel is very anti-magic though so don't trust them about mystical history!

[Black Crow]

They are indeed but it doesn't take the brains of an archbishop far less an archmaester to be sceptical about these "histories".

[Capon Breath]

They are indeed but it doesn't take the brains of an archbishop far less an archmaester to be sceptical about these "histories".

One challenge to the use of "flawed history" as a support to this theory is that - the winners get to write history.

So if Men were the winners - why would they write history as Men & COTF Vs Others if it wasnt?

If COTF + Others were the winners - It could explain the flawed history but wouldn't explain why they are exiled in tiny numbers to a frozen wasteland, doesnt seem like too much of a vistory.

[Eyron]

One challenge to the use of "flawed history" as a support to this theory is that - the winners get to write history.

So if Men were the winners - why would they write history as Men & COTF Vs Others if it wasnt?

If COTF + Others were the winners - It could explain the flawed history but wouldn't explain why they are exiled in tiny numbers to a frozen wasteland, doesnt seem like too much of a vistory.

But the winners writing history were the Andals and their septons, after the Andal invasion a long time after the Long Night.

The First Men may have won over the Others but at that time they did not write history in books, only in runes, of which we have had non interpreted yet.

My belief is that the First men had a pact with the Children (a renewal of the old pact if there ever where an old one...), but covered up the fact that they were protecting the north and the lands beyond the Wall from the Andals and the south, so they would have lied about the Walls purpose to some extent (not entirely), but if they had a pact with the Others too this would also have been covered up, so what the Andals wrote would still be a heap of lies provided by the northmen for this purpose.

So from this I still see the possibility of the Wall being a defense from the south and a small possibility that men were in cahoots with Others. The latter is much less likely according to me though.

[Black Crow]

One challenge to the use of "flawed history" as a support to this theory is that - the winners get to write history.

So if Men were the winners - why would they write history as Men & COTF Vs Others if it wasnt?

If COTF + Others were the winners - It could explain the flawed history but wouldn't explain why they are exiled in tiny numbers to a frozen wasteland, doesnt seem like too much of a vistory.

It’s a good point, but remember that as far as most of Westeros is concerned the Children are dead and gone, and their groves destroyed by… er… Men.

As Osha says, they and the other old races went north of the Wall, which hardly argues for their being on the winning side, and while Sam found reference to the Watch being given dragonglass/obsidian by the Children, that story goes back a very long way, back I suggest to when the Watch were indeed allied to the Children in defending the Wall. What’s often not appreciated is that this business of the progression from stone to bronze to iron isn’t as neat as it’s often thought. While bronze is in many ways superior to stone when it comes to weapons, not least because it can be moulded into shape, its not as sharp. You can make a good stabbing sword or spearhead, but its not as sharp as flint or obsidian – worth remembering here that even with steel swords, Cortes, Pizzaro and the other Conquistadores had a hard time in hand to hand combat with men carrying obsidian axes. It therefore makes perfect sense for the Children to supply their Watch with obsidian, whether its capable of killing off White Walkers or not.

[Black Crow]

But the winners writing history were the Andals and their septons, after the Andal invasion a long time after the Long Night.

:agree:

Exactly...

[Eyron]

@Black Crow

Can't wait for some rune text-analysis... Maybe the Royce's still can read runes? They remember :)

Or perhaps Sam learns some in his free-time in the Citadel.

I think the Thenns are the most likely to know how to read the runes, but we have had no indication that Sigorn knows how yet.

Maybe then we can finally settle this dispute and we will know if either of us is right!

Edit: or if Bran sees more of the history for us...

[Capon Breath]

:agree:

Exactly...

So any thoughts on why the Andals might chose to re-write history on an event 4000 yrs before their time to make it seem like they were friends with COTF vs Others. Not sure whats in it for them?