The Wall, the Watch and a heresy

[Black Crow]

As far as I recall, the Others hate anything with warm blood. The Children of the Forest seem to have warm blood, which implies that they would very likely not be allies of any sort for the Others.

The Wights track down and eat anything with a heat signature - not quite the same thing.

[Black Crow]

Furthering this line of thought, then, what purpose does the Horn of Winter (I think that was what it was called) serve? Jon and the Watch think it can bring down The Wall, but one would assume it was made or imbued by the CoTF. They certainly wouldn't want that if The Wall's purpose was to protect them. We also have the "other" horn in the series, the dragon-binding horn and that it can only be used/blown by someone superhuman. There certainly must be a correlation.

I'd be wary of treating the horn too literally. If the Wall was to come down the thump could probably be felt in King's Landing. I rather suspect that the horn is actually a key to unlock the magic and so allow the White Walkers and others to pass through the portals.

[fassreiter]

Hm, why should the Targaryens give up their precious dragons for patrolling? They need them as a power basis and a threat, they don't want them to appear like friendly elephants helping out after a catastrophe or something. And those dragons are stupid, they would probably melt down the wall by accident.

But still it could very well mean that they were not able to cross the Wall, interesting!

About this famous ice dragon: I don't know if I would like that. I still think dragons should be very clever and evil, or - not exist at all in your story. Maybe dragons living in cold climate improve their mental abilities, like Terry Pratchett's trolls. But somehow I fear non-Smaug dragons are just corny. And ice dragons even more than the normal ones. Tad Williams has a nice ice dragon in his story. Don't know if it was intelligent, though. I fear it wasn't, but it was just a small part of the story anyway. Turned up, did some damage, was gone again. This is how I like my dragons. If they are neither clever nor of an evil mind, they should at least be a veritable threat. Dragons, your medieval nuclear bombs. In the hand of a horny teenager. Let's fight her. Please.

By the way, I can't stand the notion of dragonriders. Has anyone ever imagined how silly any human being would look sitting on a dragon? Like a fly sitting on a horse. Let's have evil dragons, or no dragons, but not tame dragons with little silvery queens on it. Bah. Hopefully you are right about the Wall, Black Crow.

[David C. Hunter]

I would love to think the Wall is, in fact, a barrier against dragons. But it doesn't work, they can easily fly over it. And my thoughts that maybe dragons don't like to come near it because of the cold were smashed by this story about 'good' Targ queen A... what's her name, who came flying to the Wall with her dragons because of boredom and the Targy need to show off in front of the smallfolk.

But I don't want to let go of the dragons-are-the-enemy-theory. Maybe there IS a connection between the Heart of Winter and the lands beneath the Shadow? Why are the Others moving south?

Visiting the cold is different than living in the cold. Winter is coming and that theory will be put to the test. I hope Drogon can eat icicles. Dragons are the enemy to me, yet we have little info on the Others to exactly what they are or what they are doing. Have to wait and see.

Exactly so, and as for dragons flying over it, as I pointed out on another thread some time ago, we have a mention of Queen Alasayne flying up to look at the Wall, but there's no suggestion she tried the obvious next step of flying over it to see what was on the other side. In more general terms employing the Targaryen dragons to patrol beyond the Wall could have been a very proper employment for them, but they didn't...

It was only 300 years ago and the reason the targs didnt patrol the Wall or take it seriously is the same reason why Southernors dont take the Wall seriously, because its not their country, White Walkers are a myth to them and the northmen are savages

As far as I recall, the Others hate anything with warm blood. The Children of the Forest seem to have warm blood, which implies that they would very likely not be allies of any sort for the Others.

The Others seem to have the ability to plan and strategize, unlike the wights. I wonder if Bran can warg into the White Walkers...hmm...

Hm, why should the Targaryens give up their precious dragons for patrolling? They need them as a power basis and a threat, they don't want them to appear like friendly elephants helping out after a catastrophe or something. And those dragons are stupid, they would probably melt down the wall by accident.

But still it could very well mean that they were not able to cross the Wall, interesting!

About this famous ice dragon: I don't know if I would like that. I still think dragons should be very clever and evil, or - not exist at all in your story. Maybe dragons living in cold climate improve their mental abilities, like Terry Pratchett's trolls. But somehow I fear non-Smaug dragons are just corny. And ice dragons even more than the normal ones. Tad Williams has a nice ice dragon in his story. Don't know if it was intelligent, though. I fear it wasn't, but it was just a small part of the story anyway. Turned up, did some damage, was gone again. This is how I like my dragons. If they are neither clever nor of an evil mind, they should at least be a veritable threat. Dragons, your medieval nuclear bombs. In the hand of a horny teenager. Let's fight her. Please.

By the way, I can't stand the notion of dragonriders. Has anyone ever imagined how silly any human being would look sitting on a dragon? Like a fly sitting on a horse. Let's have evil dragons, or no dragons, but not tame dragons with little silvery queens on it. Bah. Hopefully you are right about the Wall, Black Crow.

The dragon riders prophecy is the one I care least about. To be honest, this is like the 5th or 6th fantasy series Im reading and I am completely sick of dragons. It be better if so much wasn't made about them. I cant imagine how it will look on HBO when Dany flies Drogon. Personally I hope at the end of the series, the 7 kingdoms are fighting off the dragons with the white walkers, but thats just me. Please no Ice Dragon. Unless they refer to Jon Snow as the Ice Dragon

[Eyron]

I think the CotF have the means to fortify the Cave from the Others just as they once helped the NW and Brandon the Builder fortify the Wall .. so I think they were driven to make the choice to leave Westeros and they went beyond the Wall after making it, because there the enemy is someone they know they can safegaurd themselves from.

I think so too, the Children obviously had a way to handle the Others so they need not fear them like the humans. Men however were a different matter, much more dangerous to them it seems.

The Night's King really intrigues me .. I want to know more about what happened there, and your theory is really interesting.. I tend to hold to the idea that the only things I can somewhat bank on in these books are Old Nan's storey's being relevant.. so we'll see what happens with the Night's King, I would love to know who he was and I kind of liked the idea he was Brandon the Builder .. (maybe crackpottery) cause I don't remember the dates of the Night's King in comparison to Brandon the Builder..

According to legend the Night's King was the 13th LC, and I'm not sure but was Bran the Builder not thought to be the first? Those two details are probably very wrong, but it is probably wrong that all of that happened approximately 8000 years ago too... Unless Bran sees the history in future books, we will probably never be the wiser...

The Weirwood door is really interesting.. It makes me think Coldhand's has the memory from when he was in the NW, although I know BR would have known about it also as a member and maybe instructed Coldhands on where to go.. or had the Ravens or the Elk lead him there.. BTW was that door half black and half white too? I remember it being all white with a dark red face but I don't have my book handy so it's hard to say for sure..

It was made of weirwood only, so white as they are. I think Coldhands were sent there but probably he knew where the Nightfort was from having been a brother of the NW, and most likely a ranger who would know where the Nightfort was even at the north side of the Wall.

Hm, why should the Targaryens give up their precious dragons for patrolling? They need them as a power basis and a threat, they don't want them to appear like friendly elephants helping out after a catastrophe or something. And those dragons are stupid, they would probably melt down the wall by accident.

But still it could very well mean that they were not able to cross the Wall, interesting!

About this famous ice dragon: I don't know if I would like that. I still think dragons should be very clever and evil, or - not exist at all in your story. Maybe dragons living in cold climate improve their mental abilities, like Terry Pratchett's trolls. But somehow I fear non-Smaug dragons are just corny. And ice dragons even more than the normal ones. Tad Williams has a nice ice dragon in his story. Don't know if it was intelligent, though. I fear it wasn't, but it was just a small part of the story anyway. Turned up, did some damage, was gone again. This is how I like my dragons. If they are neither clever nor of an evil mind, they should at least be a veritable threat. Dragons, your medieval nuclear bombs. In the hand of a horny teenager. Let's fight her. Please.

By the way, I can't stand the notion of dragonriders. Has anyone ever imagined how silly any human being would look sitting on a dragon? Like a fly sitting on a horse. Let's have evil dragons, or no dragons, but not tame dragons with little silvery queens on it. Bah. Hopefully you are right about the Wall, Black Crow.

:D

I think you know my feelings about the dragons by now, but to be sure, I was only joking.

I can't see any good enough reason for an ice-dragon to appear in the story, it would ruin the nice underdog status that the Children currently have. That is another reason I don't think they are involved with the Others, it would spoil everything if they suddenly are equally powerful and bloodthirsty as the dragons and the R'hllor gang. I root for the underdog everytime :)

If they can wield such powers as the Others and ice magic, why have they not done so before? Why wait until now? And if they did infuse the magic in the Wall, can they not easily undo it too? To spare themselves of all the trouble and just send the Others through the Wall and be done with it.

That there is a possibility that the dragons can destroy the Wall is not necessarily a bad thing, if you need another reason for showing the dragons in a bad light, and think that the Wall must stand. It makes them even worse, since they seem to be totally out of control and easily can destroy it just by accident.

If you want the Wall to be brought down, they can be helpful unfortunately :)

I think you have to decide what you hate the most Fassreiter, the Wall or the dragons.

I think they will bring the Wall down, and everybody will be very upset, but bringing the Wall down will finally let the war begin and winter will descend on the world. Wolfs will survive and hunt the lands, and escape the Others. A few humans will survive by the help of the Children and hide in the caverns under the weriwood groves all over Westeros like rabbits, protected by the weirwood magic...

Some will flee to Essos or other distant places. And in the end let balance be restored, and hope for another spring grows.

[David C. Hunter]

I think so too, the Children obviously had a way to handle the Others so they need not fear them like the humans. Men however were a different matter, much more dangerous to them it seems.

According to legend the Night's King was the 13th LC, and I'm not sure but was Bran the Builder not thought to be the first? Those two details are probably very wrong, but it is probably wrong that all of that happened approximately 8000 years ago too... Unless Bran sees the history in future books, we will probably never be the wiser...

It was made of weirwood only, so white as they are. I think Coldhands were sent there but probably he knew where the Nightfort was from having been a brother of the NW, and most likely a ranger who would know where the Nightfort was even at the north side of the Wall.

:D

I think you know my feelings about the dragons by now, but to be sure, I was only joking.

I can't see any good enough reason for an ice-dragon to appear in the story, it would ruin the nice underdog status that the Children currently have. That is another reason I don't think they are involved with the Others, it would spoil everything if they suddenly are equally powerful and bloodthirsty as the dragons and the R'hllor gang. I root for the underdog everytime :)

If they can wield such powers as the Others and ice magic, why have they not done so before? Why wait until now? And if they did infuse the magic in the Wall, can they not easily undo it too? To spare themselves of all the trouble and just send the Others through the Wall and be done with it.

That there is a possibility that the dragons can destroy the Wall is not necessarily a bad thing, if you need another reason for showing the dragons in a bad light, and think that the Wall must stand. It makes them even worse, since they seem to be totally out of control and easily can destroy it just by accident.

If you want the Wall to be brought down, they can be helpful unfortunately :)

I think you have to decide what you hate the most Fassreiter, the Wall or the dragons.

I think they will bring the Wall down, and everybody will be very upset, but bringing the Wall down will finally let the war begin and winter will descend on the world. Wolfs will survive and hunt the lands, and escape the Others. A few humans will survive by the help of the Children and hide in the caverns under the weriwood groves all over Westeros like rabbits, protected by the weirwood magic...

Some will flee to Essos or other distant places. And in the end let balance be restored, and hope for another spring grows.

I like your summary of how everything will end, nice. I have an answer to why the COTF have all this potential power yet have never used it....It's been at least 8,000 years since the Long Winter and the White Walkers came...maybe they were waiting for the long Winter to come again? They have extremely long lives, so they dont perceive time the same as we do. Thats probably just 4 generations for them. I love the storyline with the children because they come across as these cute, innocent little children and sing songs about nature and hugs trees yet every instinct in my body tells me 'Something is wrong here....look out'

Maybe they dont want to die out, they may not be allies with the Others, but they may use the chaos to there advantage. Think about this...If the COTF are soo powerful.....why do they need Bran? Is Bran potentially a more powerful greenseer and warger than even the children or blood raven? Could they be hoping that Bran could control the white walkers and thus use the white walkers as the standing army against the kingdoms which would allow the COTF to reemerge from the pits in the snow and once again roam freely across westeros? Something to think about

[Eyron]

Thanks! I admit there is a little tiny bit of wishful thinking involved in my version of the end, but compared to many other readers I don't think I overdo the "happy" part of it much.

I like your summary of how everything will end, nice. I have an answer to why the COTF have all this potential power yet have never used it....It's been at least 8,000 years since the Long Winter and the White Walkers came...maybe they were waiting for the long Winter to come again? They have extremely long lives, so they dont perceive time the same as we do. Thats probably just 4 generations for them. I love the storyline with the children because they come across as these cute, innocent little children and sing songs about nature and hugs trees yet every instinct in my body tells me 'Something is wrong here....look out'

I would have agreed about this after the first books, but at that time we knew too little of them to really have an opinion, all we had were old myths and stories. Now however they seem creepy as hell, and that is a trick I think. We are suppose to believe they are really bad news at this point, which I think supports the fact that they will not be that. We are suppose to see that they are not cute or even human, and perhaps fear them even, but that will make the statement of acceptance of differences even stronger. They belong in Westeros, one could argue that they belong much more than mankind, and if mankind want to stay there they need to learn to co-exist with them once more, however creepy they seem.

Maybe they dont want to die out, they may not be allies with the Others, but they may use the chaos to there advantage. Think about this...If the COTF are soo powerful.....why do they need Bran? Is Bran potentially a more powerful greenseer and warger than even the children or blood raven? Could they be hoping that Bran could control the white walkers and thus use the white walkers as the standing army against the kingdoms which would allow the COTF to reemerge from the pits in the snow and once again roam freely across westeros? Something to think about

I think the Children are not mankind's little helpers and that they will take advantage of the situation. But they will not try to exterminate humans, they made a pact long ago and I think that will matter.

It is indeed strange that they would need Bran if they have such powers as the Others. I don't think they can expect Bran to help them to send the Others to the south to kill all other humans. I can see a possible version of the Night's King 2.0 here but would Bran really go along with that? Will he loose all hope of life and a future? That would depress me too much to say, a little boy so down he agrees to kill the rest of mankind... Cheers GRRM... Ugh

I really really hope that is wrong.

[Efilnikufesin]

Good read Black Crow, not sure if I agree with all of it but for the most part in threads I think we share a lot of the same ideas on the CotF/Others. One thing I took as a hint that the Wall's protection works the opposite of what we think, is that it does allow the Others to control wights on the opposite side of the wall, whereas Jon/Ghost cannot sense Summer on the other side.

Edit: Maybe it doesn't work the same, but Bloodraven is able to reach out to Bran and many weirwoods across the Wall as well.

[Capon Breath]

Hi everyone,

My 100th post (Yay me!) so before my actual post...

I really enjoy this board, there are many familiar names (the OP & far too many more to name) who bring well reserached, well thought through theories to light, they are brave enough to do so knowing we will all challenge them and sure I dont always agree with all of them but the quality of peoples research and thinking makes it easy for lazy posters like me who can only conjure up crackpot theories with no real back up and take cheapshots at other peoples posts. So well done the collective posters of Westeros.org for making it a fascinating, story enriching and fun place to hang out :bowdown: ! Great for sleepless nights with my baby daughter!

OK so back to my cheapshots.... :devil:

OP your theory is complex and covers several points but 1 I just dont think there is a compelling argument for on this thread which is the concept that the Wall either in whole or in part is designed to protect the COTF / Others from threats from the south.

My counter against the theory:

The wall appaears to offer little/no protection against all known threats from the South, Men can just pass through or sail round, Dragons can just fly over / melt it.

Although potentially later additions all the castle face & protect vs the North.

Why build it and then not Man it?(or Child it?) The COTF know warcraft so they would know to defend a wall they built

The structure of the wall itself offers great defense against know enemies from the North (wildlings + Others) it would be way too much coincidence to build it to be rubbish to defend vs South and Brilliant to defend vs North.

I think "Why Ice when Others are cold" was answered very well earlier.

Why are COTF North if that is where the threat is? Could be A) they know they can Ward against Other Anyhow or B) actually COTF consider both Men & Others a threat and Men have been the more recent problem.

So I cant buy into this part of the theory,its clever, but all the evidence screams no.

[Black Crow]

My counter against the theory:

The wall appaears to offer little/no protection against all known threats from the South, Men can just pass through or sail round, Dragons can just fly over / melt it.

Although potentially later additions all the castle face & protect vs the North.

Why build it and then not Man it?(or Child it?) The COTF know warcraft so they would know to defend a wall they built

The structure of the wall itself offers great defense against know enemies from the North (wildlings + Others) it would be way too much coincidence to build it to be rubbish to defend vs South and Brilliant to defend vs North.

I think "Why Ice when Others are cold" was answered very well earlier.

Why are COTF North if that is where the threat is? Could be A) they know they can Ward against Other Anyhow or B) actually COTF consider both Men & Others a threat and Men have been the more recent problem.

So I cant buy into this part of the theory,its clever, but all the evidence screams no.

Good questions, but lets turn it around a little; what is the threat from the north? Not the Free Folk obviously, they're human. White Walkers? Definitely dangerous and users of magic of some kind, but still essentially human. So why does the Wall need to be laced with magic and 700 feet high?

Manning it? Well this is indeed a tricky one, but the Watch are currently getting in and out by the one unblocked gate. Why? Or rather let me put it this way. I suggest in the OP that while the Nights Watch were the original defenders of the Wall, they were defending it against AA and the Andals, or whoever it really was who won the war all those thousands of years ago. Originally I reckon that the wall was solid and unbroken, with passage from one side to the other being by way of the concealed tunnels and weirwood portals under the Wall used by Sam and that the ground level gateways were cut much later, after the Nights Watch had deposed the Nights King and changed sides - perhaps because as followers of R'hllor (or whatever he was then called in Westeros) the underground portals were barred to them.

The Castles, yes, at first sight its odd they're on the south side, but not once again if they're a later addition, after the Nights Watch changed sides and was no longer true to its original purpose.

Now OK I appreciate some of this stuff sounds a bit radical, but there's a lot we haven't been told and an awful lot of hints from GRRM that what we have been told is mince. This, I think is groping towards explaining a lot of the stuff that just doesn't add up.

[Capon Breath]

Good questions, but lets turn it around a little; what is the threat from the north? Not the Free Folk obviously, they're human. White Walkers? Definitely dangerous and users of magic of some kind, but still essentially human. So why does the Wall need to be laced with magic and 700 feet high?

It doesnt need to be both, but a 700ft high wall is a good thing anyway from non supernatural threats. When the wildings attack (AFFC?) the value of it being 700 ft tall is seen as the projectiles can barely reach - so its benefits both from Size & magical re-enforcement

[Black Crow]

Yes, but its not uniquely necessary to build it so high against a threat from the North - exactly the same could be said of an attack from the south, and with bells on if dragons are involved.

[Capon Breath]

Yes, but its not uniquely necessary to build it so high against a threat from the North - exactly the same could be said of an attack from the south, and with bells on if dragons are involved.

It is known

[Lady of Long Lake]

Black Crow,

Thanks for this interesting topic!

You mention how it's odd that the COTF ended up on the wrong side of the Wall after it was built. If you look at them as ambassadors to the Old Gods, they would be on the north side of the Wall. The Old Gods might want them to be the magical barrier between the Others and the First Men of Westeros ( who had no magic). If they fell , there was still the magically imbued Wall to protect the humans.

I keep wondering if it's a large scale abandonment of one religion for another that causes the Others to manifest. The First Men came to Westeros, went to war and then had 4k yrs of peace with them. During those 4000 yrs, the First Men converted to the COTF's Gods- The Old Gods. What if the First Men's previous Gods ( I can't find out what religion it was) were furious at their faithlessness and sent the Others to punish them? I wish I knew what their original religion was.

We have some religious conversions now happening in Westeros too but it doesn't seem like that many folks are converting to R'hllor. But it's increasing, as are some of the branches of the Seven Gods- with the Poor Fellows and the Warriors Sons becoming active again. The Stranger, one of the Seven Gods, stands for "Death and the Unknown". Maybe he is a jealous God :devil: and the Others do his bidding .

I just had an idea from left field! What if a Other is born every time a dead person is brought back to life with a R'hllor kiss? They are increasing because these Red God followers are stealing the dead from the Dead.

[gogorath]

I think you have some interesting concepts. The Others are indeed, counter to the type of story Martin is telling. And the COTF are an elf-archtype right now, and so I would not be shocked to see Martin stand them on their end. I think it's obvious Arya is in a place that if she remembers she is a Stark, she will not remain so I do not doubt that Martin would put Bran in a place that would be counter to all things Stark.

That said, most of your arguments that are compelling to me are the ones that simply put cracks into conventional knowledge. You present a strong argument of why everything might not be as it seems. But there's no real evidence of your argument FOR your theory. No real quotes.

It seems to be based on an assumption that A Song of Ice and Fire as a title is something incredibly structured. That the whole book and mythology is based around these concepts as warring concepts. This is indeed the idea behind R'Hllor, but not necessarily so many of the other religions. You also seem to apply a concept I see is so many freaking fantasy novels -- that of necessary balance -- that does not really seem to necessarily apply in A Song of Ice and Fire. It's a very common fantasy trope, but we don't see it really anywhere in Martin's story, except in the very word 'and.'

Furthermore, it's very clear that the Others are different creatures than the Children in appearance and behavior. Could they be a creation or controlled? Sure. Do the children have motive to hate men? Absolutely. Is there any evidence that this is occurring?

That's what I'm missing. Your idea is awful and it has not been proven wrong. But virtually every strong theory out there (and even some people find weak) tends to have some very strong basis in the actual writing -- in how words were phrased, in parallels intentionally drawn or things done. I've seen nothing on this theory to convince me.

Why would Bloodraven -- who, while possible ruthless, seemingly has no reason to want to attack humanity -- work for the others? Is he a dupe?

Is there any evidence in the attack by the wights at the cave that they weren't trying to kill everyone? (I really don't know).

The Reeds seem to have some insight into the children and Howland Reed is hinted to have visited them on the Eye of the Gods -- how does that play into your theory?

The whole idea of the obsidian weapons doesn't make any sense with your theory. Again, you can twist it, but, eh, there's no evidence to do so.

If you're building a 700 ft wall to defend your realm, why do you do it leaving all the good land to your enemies?

Martin has not been willing to validate a religion and does not seem likely to. The more and more these theories rely on a grand storytelling as "this abandoned angry god" did this or "r'hllor is real" the less convincing any argument is. This isn't David Eddings or Steven Erickson. This is my personal belief but I don't think we're ever going to get a plotline that involves active divine intervention.

The basis of your argument seems to be made on the assumption that Ice and Fire are definitive parallels in the story when they could be looser, or even poetic license. It seems based on a lot of R'hllor, which is fed by just as many unreliable narrators. I can see it being true but it's ultimately very unconvincing.

[Jape]

Adding more to my answers and theories as to why the Wall is made of ice:

I think the special ingredient that makes the Wall magical is seawater or poison water, as the Dothraki name it, which is most likely what it is made up of.

Let's assume that the North is the only landmass that connects the rest of the world to the north pole or the lands of always winter. The Wall was built on this particular choke point cause it's a cold enough area for it to stay solid and conveniently near enough to transport men and supplies to. The First Men clearly wanted as much fertile land as possible. No need for the Wall to extend to the sea because I believe seawater is deadly to the Others and that's a good enough barrier against them.

Westeros and Essos were connected by Dorne too. Now Westeros is fucked because of that cause the Others would stay there and not continue onwards after conquering it, but Essos on the other hand is safer. It is told that the CotF broke the landbridge to prevent more of the Andals or any other group of men from coming, but they have their greenseers and I think they would have known that ships will be invented. So maybe they have broken the bridge to prevent the rest of the world from entering an endless winter in case the Wall falls. Now you'll ask why not just break the land between Westeros and north pole. I'd say it's too big compared to the Dorne-Free Cities bridge.

This brings me to Osha and why she chose Skagos (as most people suspect) to hide Rickon and Shaggydog in. Isn't it curious that Osha went north of Winterfell when her original intent was to go as far south as possible? I think she chose Skagos cause it's an island and she knows the Others can't get to it. It also serves as a good place cause the people that are against the Starks wouldn't think of it as a hiding spot for the heirs of the North, like hitting two birds with one stone.

[Glyn Tarvoke]

Interesting theory but doesn't gibe with most of the things the books tell us and IMO has various holes in the theory. If the Wall is meant to protect the North, then why is Castle Black, the first castle built we're told, located on the Southern side of the wall and defenseless from the South? As are all the other castles? Why the stories that the Others were chased back to the lands of always winter? Why are COTF mentioned as living in the south till fairly recent times? (And we're told in ADWD that they live long but breed slowly)

If the COTF do things to protect themselves, does that make them evil? We're told that the COTF made a deal with the first men that the COTF basically got all the lands the men would not really want. (sounds a bit like the Indians in the US if you know history, a very sad one from the indian side of things). Seems to me if COTF were clever and selfishly evil, they'd be doing things differently then hiding out and singing in caves. But that's quite a bit different then killing folk who stumble on what sounds to be their last major stronghold.

Maybe GRMM will finish the books and give some answers about the Others. Maybe they'll be an Others POV section. Sure there has been quite a lot of twists in his book but I'd be pretty surprised if COTF were allied with the Others.

[fassreiter]

That there is a possibility that the dragons can destroy the Wall is not necessarily a bad thing, if you need another reason for showing the dragons in a bad light, and think that the Wall must stand. It makes them even worse, since they seem to be totally out of control and easily can destroy it just by accident.

If you want the Wall to be brought down, they can be helpful unfortunately :)

I think you have to decide what you hate the most Fassreiter, the Wall or the dragons.

I don't think we will actually get a scene with dragons flapping up and down in front of the Wall, breathing fire and slowly melting it down, while all the while the frantic crows are running around helplessly at Castle Black, shaking fists - though it would be funny, to be sure!

Nah, I don't have to decide between dragons and the Wall at all, I think. If you remember my fanatic posts in the giant-thread, you know what I hope for: The Horn of Winter will bring down the Wall (yes, Sam, it's you again. You got a job to do!) by accident, and when it's gone, and after we have seen a little red herringed war against the Others that will serve to bring Dany down on us, SHE will be the real problem. And then, finally, in the end, it will be a good thing that the Wall is gone, because the giants will join the fight against the dragons. The dragons are the Ring of this story, I think, they promise power without limit, and (maybe) even immortality, and that's the problem with the Targaryens. All that purity of blood nonsense rings wrong to me. The lands beyond the Wall seem creepy, but at least people there know about the merits of exogamy. And this is where the old peoples can still coexist and even make an alliance with humanity, like the giants recently did. If you needed dragonriders of a special übermenschen-race, and if you could only breed these by incestuous endogamy to save the world from Winter, we would be back in a very questionable kind of story telling, right? I can't imagine the world will be saved by means of eugenics. On the contrary. Dragons are the enemy, and the Wall between peoples has to fall before they can be fought off properly. Please?

[Black Crow]

Some good arguments above and a certain concensus on a couple of points so rather than address each individually I'll make a couple of general observations.

The first is that AA (whoever he really was) and the followers of Light won the original War for the Dawn. The Wall, according to my theory, was therefore built to defend what was left of the Old Gods' realm, not the best bits, because while there is evidence of pockets of the Children left south of it, they are based on the north or "wrong" side.

The questions as to the forts being built on the south side of the Wall was addressed in one of my earlier posts suggesting that the Nights Watch were originally charged with defending the First Men living north of the Wall and that the story of the Night's King was actually the point at which they changed sides and were no longer true.

As to the lack of textual evidence. A good and potent argument, but...

GRRM has been telling us that the textual evidence offered up so far is mince, and with Bloodraven and the Children working together and drawing Bran away from the Light and into the Darkness, it is blindingly clear that something important is to be revealed about the Children, the Others and what's really going on. This is an attempt to piece together the clues and figure it out.

There was a thread a while back asking if the Others would save Westeros from Dany and the Dragons rather than the other way round, and this, as Fassreiter has just asked, is essentially what this one comes down to.

[Eyron]

Ok Fassreiter you don't have to choose :)

You are right about the questionable storytelling, but it is a matter of view of the outcome of that ending.

The way I was thinking was that the dragons will be perceived by everyone as the most utter failure for destroying the Wall, by both the people in-world and by most readers, which would change the view that they are the saviours (lightbringers yeehaaw!). But in the end (after most people have died in Westeros and the world of men is just starting to be rebuilt in the ruins) they could be perceived as having indeed saved humanity. This is where I stand at the moment, swaying between what you say and this the former scenario , which way will GRRM go with this?

Edit: Sorry I am at work and typed to fast, pushed the post button to fast, so the whole meaning of that came out wrong!