(ADwD Spoilers) Dany the Mad Queen

[The Sword of the Morning.]

But her mad brother did not kill anybody. dany attitude is just that , her attitude. I do not believe that it is because she had Visery as brother and no father figure. She did watch her brother been killed ( i know she tried to save him before, but she Watched.

I think it is at that moment that she really showed herself : blood of dragon, wake the dragon, I am the true dragon, undirect killer.

Her brother never killed anybody because he never had the power to. Were it Viserys leading the same army Dany there would be many more dead/tortured people than there are now.

I also don't see the big deal about her watching her brother get killed. For years all she has known from is cruelty. He has abused her physically and mentally countless times. Hell right before he was killed he not only threatened to kill her but wanted to kill her child. Find me a woman that is just going to take kindly to somebody who has abused her tremendously and threatened to kill her unborn child.

[needamazing]

You're wrong because all of your examples show the complete opposite of the point you're trying to make. All you've proven is that Dany is a compassionate, at times conflicted leader who is trying to bring peace to an extremely volatile place without resorting to her most devastating weapons: the dragons. How exactly this shows a propensity towards madness is beyond me. Further, what is so bad with sleeping with Daario? Did it help or hurt her campaign in anyway? Nope, so no problem there.

The decisions I listed and the behavior tze listed does not show her being only passionate and conflicted. Many of them show her willingness to let emotions overrule reason. This is a common theme with her. Especially in the case of Dario.

Listen, I'm not saying Dany "wants" to go "bad". I'm actually saying the opposite. I'm saying she is going to think she is doing good and the "right thing" when in all actuality it will end up being the wrong thing. Of course this can be very speculative depending on which view you take which is the total point.

I think (and this is only my opinion) that Martin is going to try and show us in a very real and intimate way how a sympathetic, good intentioned person can slowly turn "very bad" because letting emotions trump reason can ultimately lead a person to beliefs, attitudes, values and worldviews that can appear and be cruel and "mad" to many rational people. This can especially happen when a person does not have exceptional role models or jaded/conflicted experiences or childhoods - like Dany's.

We will keep making excuses over and over for her behavior because she is well-intentioned or sympathetic most of the time until we don't realize just how bad she has gotten and that she really is "bad".

Just my two cents. I have actually liked Dany during the series. I just keep sensing this trend and was wanted to state it and get others opinions.

[Kate Poem]

All kneel before Danaerys Borne in the Storm, eee... Mother of Dragons, Unburnt eeee... Khaleesi of... yyy... Queen of Westeros, Mereen, Yunkai and maybe all Universe...

Daarioo.

It is complex of Godess now or NOT YET?

I see this madness. It's coming. I see it.

King Stannis, thank the R'hllor, has less titles. Even with "Azor Ahai" thing.

And he did'nt and he does'nt want be Center of the Universe and do everything for everyone.

[The Mother of The Others]

Could be she gets shivved by someone "small" but courageous like Sam who we usually associate with doing what's best. Then both Daenerys and the readers would all ask together, "WHY?" and Sam or whoever would say "Because you're a crazy Targaryen and you're no good for the world." And both Daeny and the readers who had been expecting to see her conquest completed would say "Oh."

[brashcandy]

Interesting points. We've seen a number of characters make huge mistakes. Sometimes they learn from them. (Dany, Arya) Sometimes they don't (Tyrion, Cersie)

We've also seen characters that came across as "bad" becoming better. I think we'll see it go the other way too. Joff was the 1st. Dany could well be the next but I don't think she'll be mad, tho some may say so. Like Varys.

You know, Martin pretty much sticks to the logic of human nature. In life, sometimes "bad" people are redeemed. They change on their own or via the influence of others, etc etc. In terms of traditionally "good" people, maybe they may become a bit more corrupt, jaded, mature, world-weary, whatever you want to call it. But as my examples might show, this black and white depiction of human nature is essentially limiting. Humans are very complex to begin with, and saying that a character will move from bad to good, or good to bad, is usually only possible if one is talking in the very basic of terms, whilst ignoring very important details. Regardless of all this, I think Martin has shown that Dany possesses a fundamental human decency that distinguishes her in the world that she is in. Her decision to end slavery may not have come as a jolt in the night, but the mere fact that she is able to respond to the suffering of the Unsullied, and realises their right to not be treated in this kind of way, along with the thousands of other slaves in the region, says a lot about her character. It is this character that I think Martin is invested in, and I think that ultimately even if she becomes greyer (as we like to call it in these parts), I don't see her as the next Mad Queen, or tyrant.

Just my two cents. I have actually liked Dany during the series. I just keep sensing this trend and was wanted to state it and get others opinions.

I don't mind your two cents :) My point was just that all your examples don't prove that Dany will become mad like her father. Tze's points were just outright character assassination, but we've had this debate before.

[TrueLion]

Barristan's judgment of her is clouded by wishful thinking of an aging man who's floundering for purpose. Sad, but denial is a helluva thing.

Because why the hell hasn't he told Dany yet why her crazy-ass father was killed and she was sent away in the first place!? STOP BEING AN ENABLER BARRISTAN!

[needamazing]

Could be she gets shivved by someone "small" but courageous like Sam who we usually associate with doing what's best. Then both Daenerys and the readers would all ask together, "WHY?" and Sam or whoever would say "Because you're a crazy Targaryen and you're no good for the world." And both Daeny and the readers who had been expecting to see her conquest completed would say "Oh."

Exactly!!!

Martin will take us readers through that same bad transformation just like he is taking Dany. His goal will be for the readers to still think she is a "good" character when she is really "bad".

We may only get "woke up" when another character which we like or respect tells her what she really is!!

Brilliant!!

[needamazing]

You know, Martin pretty much sticks to the logic of human nature. In life, sometimes "bad" people are redeemed. They change on their own or via the influence of others, etc etc. In terms of traditionally "good" people, maybe they may become a bit more corrupt, jaded, mature, world-weary, whatever you want to call it. But as my examples might show, this black and white depiction of human nature is essentially limiting. Humans are very complex to begin with, and saying that a character will move from bad to good, or good to bad, is usually only possible if one is talking in the very basic of terms, whilst ignoring very important details. Regardless of all this, I think Martin has shown that Dany possesses a fundamental human decency that distinguishes her in the world that she is in. Her decision to end slavery may not have come as a jolt in the night, but the mere fact that she is able to respond to the suffering of the Unsullied, and realises their right to not be treated in this kind of way, along with the thousands of other slaves in the region, says a lot about her character. It is this character that I think Martin is invested in, and I think that ultimately even if she becomes greyer (as we like to call it in these parts), I don't see her as the next Mad Queen, or tyrant.

You may be right. At least it will be fun finding out!! I wish the wait would be shorter...

[tze]

Tze's points were just outright character assassination, but we've had this debate before.

Deep sigh. "Character assassination" is defined as "the malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation." Daenerys Targaryen is a fictional character. Talking about the actions she has taken in the past, and what that means for the future, is in no way "character assassination." I think GRRM is putting Dany on a very dark path. I realize from past debates that you for some reason take criticisms of Dany's character intensely personally, so I'll just say this: if you can cite to examples from the text that disagree with the points I've made, I'd love to roll up my sleeves and have another debate. Otherwise, we'll just end up shouting at each other (again).

[Jem]

Have you ever watched a fly bashing itself to death on a window trying pointlessly and hopelessly to get outside? And even if there is a wide open door just behind it, it will ignore the door and just keep bashing itself against the window? This is how I see Dany in ADWD, pointlessly bashing her head against Meereen and getting nowhere. However I think in her last chapter of ADWD she as finally turned around and found the door.

Rather than "if I look back I will be lost", I think she will find that if she "looks back" she will find the place where she went off her path and she will then be able to correct her course.

In her immediate future I think that Dany will take on Jhaqo, kill him as she swore to do and take his khalasar to Vaes Dothrak where she will bring all of the khalasars together under her leadership as per the Stallion who Mounts the World prophecy and then she will direct the combined might of the Dothraki against Meereen and the other slaver cities to clean up that mess and then work out a way to get to Westeros.

[brashcandy]

@tze - And likewise tze, I've realised that you waste no opportunity to attack Daenerys on lots of things that have no merit at all. Believe me, I try to avoid Dany hate threads, but some things are too flagrantly absurd to ignore.

[Wouter]

I think there's a good chance that she'll find out about Aegon (probably via Tyrion) at around the same time she meets up with Moqorro, who's ready to crown her Prophecized Savior of the World. And Dany deciding she's a prophecized messiah is a terrible, terrible thing for everyone.

I don't know about that, especially as she may well actually be a prophecied savior (or at least 1/2 or 1/3 of it, depending on how this AA etc thing works). And Stannis deciding he is a prophecied savior hasn't worked out that badly for the people on the wall (and the people protected by the wall), so far.

I expect Dany to do fine, and having Tyrion as an advisor (and also regaining Jorah, besides Barristan) will probably help. Getting experience will help, as well.

[needamazing]

This discussion on this forum is really getting me to think about this subject. I came up with another concept/revelation that I thought was interesting.

What is it about Dany that makes her so appealing or sympathetic to us? Really think about it. Why do we think she is so kind, compassionate?

I say the main reason is because of her hate for slavery and her desire to free the Lamb people, Unsullied and people of Mereen. She is also beautiful and strong (eating the heart). And she was a vulnerable character at the beginning due to her relationship with Viserys.

But this desire to free slaves is at the heart of why we believe her to be the savior or future queen of Westeros. Why does she care so much about it? Because she was a slave herself and that is emotionally built in to her to "destroy it", get rid of it. Again, she is acting on emotion.

But... what is one of the big differences between the "East" and the world that all of us readers live in? In our world slavery is condemned and has been for hundreds of years. Nothing about slavery is accepted or thought to be mainstream. But in the "East" (Mereen, Voltanis, Dothraki civilization) slavery is an accepted way of life. Their economic and cultural system is built upon it. Freeing slaves is a very progressive and liberal notion. (Don't get me wrong, I of course think slavery is terrible, terrible, I'm just trying to make a point)

Why does this matter? Because I think Martin is using our built-in views against slavery to corrupt how we should really be thinking about Dany. Sounds strange I know. But think about it. In her world, all the other people (except for slaves) are looking at her like she is some progressive, loon that also lets her emotions corrupt her reasoning. We think its grand because she is freeing slaves but they don't. We are ultimately right but they don't think so. We think so because we have been taught since we were little that slavery is bad.

I believe he is using this built in hate for slavery in us readers to cloud our judgement about the rest of what Dany is doing and the decisions she is making. Other than freeing the slaves what else has she done that would be considered good or wise? Not much.

She keeps making bad decision after bad decision and we keep thinking she is great because of her overall motivation of freeing the slaves. Take that away from her and what would we think of her. She lets her husband get killed by a witch, she causes the death of her son, she destroys the economic structure of Mereen, she unleashes untrained dragons on the world, she sleeps with her subject the night before she gets married, on and on.

but we love her... Martin is brilliant!

So is she "good" or "bad" already?

(Oh... and I do think slavery is the most terrible thing in the world)

[The Lost Lord]

Some of you have heard this before, but here's my grand unified theory of why Dany will end up ultimately being a destructive force who will have to be defeated in the end. (Not "mad" per se, but playing the role of an "antagonist" in the story overall.) I didn't believe this to be the case before ADWD -- after AFFC I thought she was very well positioned to waltz into Westeros. But in the past book several things changed:

• Aegon's appearance and decision to go west: This is an unmitigated disaster for Dany. She was positioned to save Westeros from the despised Lannisters -- but now Aegon will get this "savior" mantle and the crowds will cheer the mummer's dragon. If he takes King's Landing before Dany arrives, which I feel certain will happen, Dany will (rightfully) be seen as the destabilizing invader.
  
• Quentyn's death: Another unmitigated disaster. Word will certainly spread in Dorne about how the mad queen laughed at the poor Dornish prince before her dragons barbecued him. It has been repeatedly hammered home that the Dornish are stubborn, irrational, and impossible to subdue even with dragons. The loss of Quentyn means the loss of Dorne, likely forever. (This is also, I believe, the only plausible reason Martin spent so much time on Quentyn -- because his death will have major consequences, driving Dorne away from Dany permanently.)
  
• Dany's likely coalition made up mostly of people hated in Westeros: Dany has just been reunited with a Dothraki horde. The ironborn are headed for her, as is a noseless kinslaying kingslaying dwarf who will likely become her Hand. If she does actually invade with these people, one could hardly imagine an invading coalition the Westerosi people would despise more. It's a coalition of violent rapist plunderers, and Tyrion.
  

These developments together seem so damaging to Dany's prospects for a stable long-term rule of Westeros, that if she persists in invading, she'll by default be playing an essentially villainous, destructive role by setting the continent on fire in her doomed quest, regardless of her psychological state. But in addition to all of this we have some very important changes in her mindset that occur only in her final chapter:

• Psychological changes: Reread Dany's last chapter, the "vision quest" with this concept in mind and you will see her transformation take place before your eyes. Viserys of all people appears and chides her -- "If I'd had a dragon, I would have taught the world the meaning of our words." Dany forgets the name of the little girl Drogon killed, the girl she's been obsessing about the whole book, and sadly concludes that she'll have no children, only dragons. She gives up on reforming Meereen, concluding that "Meereen was not her home, and never would be… Meereen would always be the Harpy's city, and Daenerys could not be a harpy." She never mentions any desire to keep ending slavery. She says she wanted to stay in Meereen to plant trees, and "Jorah" chides her by saying "dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words." Dany responds: "Fire and blood." Then Drogon roasts a horse and Dany eats it, literally embracing fire and blood. She thinks that Daario (who has symbolized the path of war/brutality for the whole book) would approve and eat beside her.
  

Pretty much the only possible way to turn around this situation is if Dany both saves the world from a bunch of invading ice zombies and gets the credit for it. With all these factors against her, will Dany really be "saved by the bell," so to speak, by the Others? I doubt it -- I don't think the Others arc will play out in so predictable a fashion, Martin has hinted that there's more to the Others than meets the eye, and the Others are notably absent from Dany's visions in the House of the Undying.

[David Selig]

I have to say I never expected to see Robb of all people given as an example of rational behaviour.

Two words - Jeyne Westerling. Dany has never done anywhere near as irrational and dumb.

Anyway, for me Dany is pretty rational and reasonable most of the time, she has her bad moments, but this is only normal given what she's had to go through and her young age. No sense of madness as far as I can see.

[tze]

@tze - And likewise tze, I've realised that you waste no opportunity to attack Daenerys on lots of things that have no merit at all. Believe me, I try to avoid Dany hate threads, but some things are too flagrantly absurd to ignore.

I'm sure you realize that just declaring that points have no merit doesn't actually render them merit-less, right? Surely you're not just dismissing contrary points of view as "merit-less" just because you disagree?

Why is this a slippery slope tze? If she's wrong, she dies. If she isn't, then she's able to continue her outreach to the sick and needy.

First, she is demonstrably wrong. That's not even debatable. Many Targaryens died during the Great Spring Sickness. Her great-great-uncle, Prince Dareon, died of a pox he caught from a whore. Targaryens are not immune to sickness.

And second, believing yourself to be genetically superior to ordinary people, to the point where you believe your special blood makes you invulnerable to disease, is a pretty obvious slippery slope. GRRM has told us of other Targaryens who believed they were genetically superior to 'ordinary' people. Aerion Brightflame, for example, who believed he was a dragon in human form. Dany justifies her belief that she can't get sick by asking Barristan if he's ever seen a dragon with the bloody flux. At many points throughout ADWD Dany talks about herself as if she is a dragon in human form. Dany thinks she's superhuman. It's not a large leap to start believing that, if dragon blood saves her from the ravages of sickness, then logically it must also give other properties, like maybe she can heal others using her magic blood? Maybe dragons are natural rulers, so of course Dany can't really make mistakes like an ordinary person. Humans are fallible, dragons are not. Slippery slope.

This is ridiculous. Dany is very good at reading people. Sure, she's made mistakes with trusting certain individuals - like every other character in the series - but by and large she knows that most people are at heart two-faced, and want something from her in return for their support.

So she's very good at reading people, except of course when she isn't?

One would expect her to be obsessed with interpreting prophecies if the writer kept having people pop up to give them to her. However, she isn't by any means like her brother Rhaegar.

I've looked through all of these books and the prequel novellas, and wouldn't you know it, there's no Rhaegar POVs detailing the exact levels of his obsession with prophecy. And no POVs describing how Rhaegar's thought process and plans were altered by prophecies. For all we know, this is exactly how Rhaegar acted with prophecies. So please, tell me again how she "isn't by any means like her brother Rhaegar"?

If she is able to amass a big enough force to conquer Westeros, then she shall. It's not about not having practice against "war loving, led-by-warrior-lords" but in being able to potentially bring some of these people over to your side, and if not, defeat them by sheer force of military might.

Which Dany hasn't ever done. She's been facing sellsword companies and slave soldiers led by merchant princes. She hasn't faced anybody like Randall Tarly, Jon Connington, or Stannis Baratheon. Westerosi Lords are generally expected to be warriors; Great Masters of Meereen, Astapor, and Yunkai are not. Slave soldiers, especially ones who weren't even trained as soldiers, were expected to break and come over to Dany's side. Westerosi knights and conscripted soldiers will not do that. GRRM has described a lot of battles and the soldiers follow their lords, they don't follow the person they individually think would be the best ruler. If they did, they'd all have to prepare to move, cause they could never return to their homes as their lords wouldn't take betrayal lightly. That's the whole nature of feudalism.

Wrong. She hasn't heard the specifics of her father's reign, but she admits to not knowing much about Westeros. She said as much to Quentyn when he was telling her about the water gardens.

Not wrong. She told him she didn't know about the first Daenerys. She certainly tells Barristan how she already knows all about the usurper's dogs. Anyone who can think that the Starks and the Lannisters are the same (culturally, historically, even religiously) doesn't know Westerosi culture. And if she's so keen on learning, how is it that she's had no discussions with Barristan or Jorah? Jorah, especially. It's not like they had a ton else to do while wandering in the Red Waste.

Right now the Starks are all outcasts or pawns. They cannot ally with the Lannisters or the Tyrells, and Stannis is on the way out. It makes sense that Dany would be able to capitalise on this situation and make an alliance with the Starks, probably through the North. If Jorah reenters her service this is particularly likely to happen.

You wrote this in response to my pointing out that the Starks are all skinchangers. You do realize that none of these points make the Starks "not" skinchangers, right?

Wrong again. We've actually seen what Dany won't do when she gets desperate. She tends to sacrifice her own happiness and safety (walking into the fire, locking up the dragons, denying Quentyn and Xaro, marrying Hizdahr) for the general good of those depending on her. Of course the naysayers ignore of all this to focus on one extraordinary act of justice and revenge on the slavers in Meereen, but the facts are there.

First, Dany is hardly the first Targ to walk into a fire. It's practically a family tradition by this point. It's been alleged that the same damn thing happened at Summerhall, yet nobody is trumpeting the great bravery and sacrifice Aegon V undertook to try and hatch those dragon eggs. They call it the Tragedy at Summerhall. Walking into a fire is generally a pretty stupid thing to do, especially when you don't know what the hell you're doing in the first place.

Second, Dany turned down Quentyn's offer of Dornish support (which will probably lead to war with Dorne when she gets to Westeros), turned down Xaro's offer of ships (which has led to war), married Hizdahr (giving in to the wishes of the insurgents), and sent other people to lock up her dragons. That last one really got me; she's the only person they'll listen to, so she sends dozens of men to get charbroiled while hauling them into the dark, while Dany doesn't even come along to help.

She was all ready to sacrifice her happiness until she hung out in the wilderness for a few weeks. Then suddenly she did a 180.

Ramsay Bolton nailed up 63 Ironborn and we rightly call him a monster. Dany nailed up 163 Meereenese, and you think she's a savior. Were these 163 at all involved in the murdered slave children? Dany has no idea. Was the person who suggested nailing up the children in the first place among those 163? Dany has no idea. Were all of the slaveholding families represented among these 163, or were only the less politically powerful families given up to Dany? Dany has no idea. There was no justice for those children here.

[Giants bane]

I didn't really read the whole thread I'm just kind of going to jump in here.

Dany has made bad decisions because she's a child. Barristan points this out many times. Daario, keeping all of the freedmen with her, believing everything her brother told her about how her blood makes her almost super human. But she is learning from her mistakes.

How many of you remember the stupid things you talked yourself into when you were 13 14 15? The world is full of rainbows and unicorns and magic. But then your decisions cave in on you.

Should dany have spent more time with her dragons? Hell yes. But every dragon only has one rider. If she had worked with the other dragons it may have made it near impossible for another rider to train them. But Drogon is hers now and until they die. Drogon is the dominant dragon and will be her means of controlling the other 2. And I think she would welcome YG and JS as her other two riders. She has been dying to find her two tri companions that will help her reclaim her throne. But if Victorian figures out that horn she will lose it.

As far as the bloody flux goes. Maybe. I think it's more likely that she is having a miscarriage though. She couldn't remember her last moons blood. And that also means that it took a few months since she walked out into the infested camp. I think Darrio may have slipped one past the cursed goalie.

Something horrible is like to happen with the dothraki. 50 screamers vs a girl they might recognize and a dragon. Smells like trouble to me. But I've been wrong before.

If wanting to save everybody and preserve the peace means she is going mad then we need a little more madness in the world.

[dreamcatcher]

I love this theory. I've always presumed that ADwD is a story about two things:

1) Dany's downfall (the optimistic ending is just a deception, in the first books she went from strength to strength, NOW she'll go down)

2) Jon's ascent (the pessimistic ending is a trick, obviously, and he had so much bad things happen to him that he has nowhere to go but upwards)

[Aurubin]

If you compare Tyrion and Dany's interactions with Brown Ben Plumm you get insight into Dany's deficiencies, at least when it comes to networking. Tyrion immediately distrusts the man, noting such things as "his (Plumm's) smile never reached his mouth." I think the comparison to her and her father is apt. Aerys was remarked to be openhanded in his youth, but suffered conspiracy and trauma related to his rule, not to mention the machinations of Varys. Dany is uneducated, both in the traditional and political sense, and this is reflected in her decision making.

She's sort of a deconstruction of the "perfect" queen. The formerly callow youth who rises to the occasion and becomes the benevolent dictator by knowing the problems of the people, etc. She's a hormonal teenager who was never groomed for command, plagued by visions and burdened by history and prophecy. If she doesn't end up broken by the end of the story, I'll be surprised.

[Jem]

I love this theory. I've always presumed that ADwD is a story about two things:

1) Dany's downfall (the optimistic ending is just a deception, in the first books she went from strength to strength, NOW she'll go down)

2) Jon's ascent (the pessimistic ending is a trick, obviously, and he had so much bad things happen to him that he has nowhere to go but upwards)

I tend to see Dany and Jon having parallel experiences in ADWD, with both of them bottoming out at the end. Both of them now will now begin to ascend, with Dany being just slightly ahead of Jon, having began her ascent at the end of ADWD.