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(ADwD Spoilers) Dany the Mad Queen


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Her story so far includes:

Genetics - 50/50 chance of Targaryen madness or brilliance

Homeless for the early part of her life, constantly moving in fear of life from the Usurpers assasins

Bat shit crazy, angry, vengeful, paranoid, violent and abusive brother being her closest influence for 13 yrs

Sold at 13 to a Dothraki Khal for 1st Marriage

Witnesses brother murdered horrifically

Watches Husband murdered at the hand of of a Blood magic witch

Her son is murdered as part of a blood magic ritual

Walks into an inferno and "hatches" 3 dragons

At least 3 attempts on her life (manticore, house of undying & poison locusts)

Betrayed by Jorah who she thought of as her most trusted ally

Pressure of ruling a land she know nothing about, taking cities to war etc (brought on herself)

Forced into a 2nd marriage age 16?

2nd Miscarriage age 16?

If she ends up as a mad queen can anyone blame her?

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Exactly. And I don't like how people try to justify this because since slavery is wrong she had the right to cheat and kill the men she was dealing with. please. So, if I buy weed or ectasy from a dealer, can I just kill him so I won't need to pay him, because dealing drugs is wrong?

That isn't what happened at all. Dany freed the Unsullied and then they chose to follow her. She used them to end slavery (and to prevent the killing of innocent children and animals, as per their training). But they could have told her that they didn't want to follow her once she freed them, and she would have accepted that.

Well, it doesn't work on me. Don't get me wrong, but I actually think that the instintive association slavery = evil is an American thing (at least, an "anglo" characteristic), because of your history. IMO slavery doesn't have to imply that a society is evil, just that is still "developing". Slavery was an important characteristic of many ancient civilizations it's even in the freaking bible!

Slavery didn't make ancient Grecians or Romans evil. they just didn't know anything different. Which is why I don't think Dany is such a hero because she killed all those slaves they can be blamed by a modern point of view but, in-universe, they can't be blamed because they behaved as they were raised to do.

And, anyway, Westeros doesn't condamn slavery either, they just don't have it. Daenerys doesn't condamn slavery as istitution, she just thinks "OMG, slavery is bad! because slavers are evil". She's perfectly right, but she doesn't think the problem through. She doesn't think how Doreh was given to her as a slave, she doesn't think that there's really not much different between a slave and a poor man who works for a noble, as Tyrion does, she doesn't think about how much she's changing the society she's in and what this would imply. She just expect a culture which has been based on slavery for millennia to change from one day to the next, because she says so. Not everybody agrees with her, she should to understand them and to make them change their minds. No, she's just like "I got dragons, do as I say". C'mon honey, grow up a little.

It's like what Jon did, tying to make Marsh and Co accept the wildlings, only on a much bigger - and catastrophic - scale.

EDIT: Before somebody jumps at my throat, in the above chapter I haven't said I think slavery is good. I said that a civilization that employs slavery doesn't necessarily have to be evil

Actually, slavery is punishable by death in Westeros. That's why Jorah is living in Essos. It also appears to be illegal in some parts of Essos, so it's really not very surprising that she's so against it. Furthermore she was actually sold as a slave, which is why ending slavery was so much more personal for her character.

And as for her point about not recognising the difference between a poor man working for nobles and slavery, I completely disagree. In one of her very first chapters she talks about Illyrio's "slaves" - despite slavery being illegal in Pentos.

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When people try to tell Dany that her family wasn't as wonderful as she thinks, she shuts them down. She's had multiple opportunities to "learn", and she's repeatedly chosen ignorance. More than that, she's begun believing some truly disturbing propaganda (that she got from Viserys of all people) about what it means to be a Targaryen, and she's interwoven the idea that "blood of the dragon" is special and unique into her personal identity in such inflexible ways that I'm very, very doubtful that she'll choose to listen to people who try to tell her she's wrong---about her blood, or about anything else.

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Can anyone blame her for not wanting to face the truth about her family? Nobody really wants to hear that their father liked to burn people alive. Yes, her father was mad, but she never even knew him. Robert, for instance, never once faced the truth that maybe Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love. And yet he still managed to hold seven kingdoms together for many years. And I can see why Dany doesn't see the rebellion as we see it, as she believes that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love - she doesn't think he kidnapped her like so many in the seven kingdoms seem to think. So to her, Robert was most definitely wrong. If he was truly rebelling because of Aerys, he would have allowed Rhaella or Rhaegar to rule as regent.

The only problem I have with her opinion of his war is how she considers the Starks and the Lannisters to be the same. But from her point of view, they really are. Both of them led to her family being exiled. Of course, we know that the Lannisters behaved much worse (the sack of King's Landing, the deaths of Rhaenys, Elia and Aegon, etc.), and she should know that too.

As for "believing some truly disturbing propaganda" - she really DOESN'T. I've already replied to this point but it's clear you haven't read what I've said, so I'll repeat myself. She said that Viserys claimed they were immune to diseases. She doesn't say "we're immune to diseases just like my brother said". The only reason she brings this point up is because she's never been sick before (and clearly Viserys was never sick), so there is some evidence to suggest he was right. And he knew the Targaryens better than she did, so who is she to question him?

Yes, she's proud about being the "blood of the dragon", but that was all she had left. She has to be proud: she's a queen. Her people depend on her. I don't think her people would have had much faith in her if she had've walked through the Red Waste telling them that they should lead themselves because everyone is equal.

Westeros is a feudal society, so all of the great houses - the Lannisters, Tyrells, Starks, et al. - all believe they're superior to the smallfolk. But Daenerys actually believes that she BELONGS to the small folk. "A queen does not belong to herself, but to her people."

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That isn't what happened at all. Dany freed the Unsullied and then they chose to follow her. She used them to end slavery (and to prevent the killing of innocent children and animals, as per their training). But they could have told her that they didn't want to follow her once she freed them, and she would have accepted that.

The part I remember is that the price she had to pay for the Unsullied was way more than she had at the time or could afford. And then after she had the army she never had to pay. So, I don't exactly remember what happened but I thought that after the Unsullied decided they wanted to follow her she then had them kill the people she bought them from. I'll be reading the chapter again soon in the next day or two so then I'll know for sure.

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Can anyone blame her for not wanting to face the truth about her family?

Actually, I can. All of these things that readers know about Aerys, she's worked hard to avoid knowing.We can't say she's justified in shouting down people because she doesn't want to hear about Aerys burning people alive when the whole point is that she doesn't know what Aerys was doing in the first place.

As for "believing some truly disturbing propaganda" - she really DOESN'T. I've already replied to this point but it's clear you haven't read what I've said, so I'll repeat myself. She said that Viserys claimed they were immune to diseases. She doesn't say "we're immune to diseases just like my brother said". The only reason she brings this point up is because she's never been sick before (and clearly Viserys was never sick), so there is some evidence to suggest he was right. And he knew the Targaryens better than she did, so who is she to question him?

I heard you, I just disagree entirely. She basically says, "Viserys says we're immune to disease, and this is an idea that I think has merit. Everybody else in the world can get sick, but I can't immediately recall instances of us getting sick, therefore, Barristan's fear of my contracting the flux is obviously baseless as the blood of the dragon cannot get sick." If she thought the notion was ridiculous, she wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

And come on. Dany knows what sort of person Viserys was. That she considers anything he told her to be at all authoritative is just bizarre.

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You're wrong because all of your examples show the complete opposite of the point you're trying to make. All you've proven is that Dany is a compassionate, at times conflicted leader who is trying to bring peace to an extremely volatile place without resorting to her most devastating weapons: the dragons. How exactly this shows a propensity towards madness is beyond me. Further, what is so bad with sleeping with Daario? Did it help or hurt her campaign in anyway? Nope, so no problem there.

Why is this a slippery slope tze? If she's wrong, she dies. If she isn't, then she's able to continue her outreach to the sick and needy.

This is ridiculous. Dany is very good at reading people. Sure, she's made mistakes with trusting certain individuals - like every other character in the series - but by and large she knows that most people are at heart two-faced, and want something from her in return for their support.

One would expect her to be obsessed with interpreting prophecies if the writer kept having people pop up to give them to her. However, she isn't by any means like her brother Rhaegar. She gets down to the daily necessities of Queenship, and is mostly preoccupied with trying to turn things around in Meereen.

If she is able to amass a big enough force to conquer Westeros, then she shall. It's not about not having practice against "war loving, led-by-warrior-lords" but in being able to potentially bring some of these people over to your side, and if not, defeat them by sheer force of military might. Aegon so far is doing quite fine, and Dany has tons more experience and acumen than he does.

Wrong. She hasn't heard the specifics of her father's reign, but she admits to not knowing much about Westeros. She said as much to Quentyn when he was telling her about the water gardens.

Right now the Starks are all outcasts or pawns. They cannot ally with the Lannisters or the Tyrells, and Stannis is on the way out. It makes sense that Dany would be able to capitalise on this situation and make an alliance with the Starks, probably through the North. If Jorah reenters her service this is particularly likely to happen.

Wrong again. We've actually seen what Dany won't do when she gets desperate. She tends to sacrifice her own happiness and safety (walking into the fire, locking up the dragons, denying Quentyn and Xaro, marrying Hizdahr) for the general good of those depending on her. Of course the naysayers ignore of all this to focus on one extraordinary act of justice and revenge on the slavers in Meereen, but the facts are there.

Of course, because she's suddenly going to turn into a raving lunatic like her brother Viserys :rolleyes: or maybe she'll be like Stannis, who thinks he's Azor Ahai reborn? Whatever. Dany isn't the only one hearing of prophecies, but she hasn't let them cloud her judgment or let some mad priestess convince her to disrespect the cultures and religious beliefs of others.

I think You are wrong.

All hailed her as some Godess, she has more titles than ten Azor Ahais and twenty Princes which are promised. It is very dangerous.

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The part I remember is that the price she had to pay for the Unsullied was way more than she had at the time or could afford. And then after she had the army she never had to pay. So, I don't exactly remember what happened but I thought that after the Unsullied decided they wanted to follow her she then had them kill the people she bought them from. I'll be reading the chapter again soon in the next day or two so then I'll know for sure.

The slavers wanted Drogon for the Unsullied, so she gave them Drogon and then freed her Unsullied. But Drogon refused to come to the slavers and the Unsullied helped her overthrow them.

Actually, I can. All of these things that readers know about Aerys, she's worked hard to avoid knowing.We can't say she's justified in shouting down people because she doesn't want to hear about Aerys burning people alive when the whole point is that she doesn't know what Aerys was doing in the first place.

I heard you, I just disagree entirely. She basically says, "Viserys says we're immune to disease, and this is an idea that I think has merit. Everybody else in the world can get sick, but I can't immediately recall instances of us getting sick, therefore, Barristan's fear of my contracting the flux is obviously baseless as the blood of the dragon cannot get sick." If she thought the notion was ridiculous, she wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

And come on. Dany knows what sort of person Viserys was. That she considers anything he told her to be at all authoritative is just bizarre.

First of all, I love how you completely cut out a lot of my argument to suit yours. I'd love to see your reply to the rest of my post.

Anyway, Dany is only using an excuse so she can help the sick. As we've seen a lot with her, she has to use her pride and her strength to hide her fears and uncertainties. Of course she knows the dangers of going out and helping those with the pale mare - but she doesn't want her people to worry about her (and one could argue that she also brings up what Viserys said to try and convince herself).

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I think You are wrong.

All hailed her as some Godess, she has more titles than ten Azor Ahais and twenty Princes which are promised. It is very dangerous.

So now she's being condemned for having TITLES?! Even though she quite clearly earnt them?

Unburnt - she walked into a funeral pyre and came out unburnt.

Mother of dragons - she hatched dragons.

Breaker of chains/shackles - she freed slaves.

Queen of Meereen - she's the ruler of Meereen.

Slayer of Warlocks - Drogon burnt down the Undying.

Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men/Lord of the Seven Kingdoms - this is the only one she hasn't earnt yet. But many would consider her to be the true heir to the Iron Throne. Stannis also considers himself to be King of Westeros, even though he hasn't earnt the title, as many consider him to be Robert's true heir (and he is - but many would still consider Robert a usurper).

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First of all, I love how you completely cut out a lot of my argument to suit yours. I'd love to see your reply to the rest of my post.

I cut out parts that I wasn't responding to because otherwise the post would have been long and unwieldy and I didn't feel that anything else you had said contradicted the points I was making. But as that bothers you, I'll address each point in turn.

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Can anyone blame her for not wanting to face the truth about her family? Nobody really wants to hear that their father liked to burn people alive. Yes, her father was mad, but she never even knew him.

Dany doesn't know that her father liked to burn people alive. She doesn't know why people called him the Mad King. You can't say that her willful ignorance is justified because these truths are too terrible to hear, when Dany has no way of knowing how terrible these truths are in the first place.

Robert, for instance, never once faced the truth that maybe Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love. And yet he still managed to hold seven kingdoms together for many years. And I can see why Dany doesn't see the rebellion as we see it, as she believes that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love - she doesn't think he kidnapped her like so many in the seven kingdoms seem to think. So to her, Robert was most definitely wrong. If he was truly rebelling because of Aerys, he would have allowed Rhaella or Rhaegar to rule as regent.

I didn't respond to the point about Robert because I think the idea that Robert didn't face consequences for his ignorance is demonstrably false. I seem to recall that Robert's failure to recognize Lyanna's true feelings led him to sabotage his marriage with Cersei, which led to his death and the dissolution of parts of the realm in the War of the Five Kings. And again, Dany hasn't asked anyone about the Rebellion. The whole point is that incomplete information is always problematic.

The only problem I have with her opinion of his war is how she considers the Starks and the Lannisters to be the same. But from her point of view, they really are. Both of them led to her family being exiled. Of course, we know that the Lannisters behaved much worse (the sack of King's Landing, the deaths of Rhaenys, Elia and Aegon, etc.), and she should know that too.

I didn't respond to this because, again, these are all things Dany doesn't know. And my whole point is that ignorance in general is a problem for her.

As for "believing some truly disturbing propaganda" - she really DOESN'T. I've already replied to this point but it's clear you haven't read what I've said, so I'll repeat myself. She said that Viserys claimed they were immune to diseases. She doesn't say "we're immune to diseases just like my brother said". The only reason she brings this point up is because she's never been sick before (and clearly Viserys was never sick), so there is some evidence to suggest he was right. And he knew the Targaryens better than she did, so who is she to question him?

Responded to this.

Yes, she's proud about being the "blood of the dragon", but that was all she had left. She has to be proud: she's a queen. Her people depend on her. I don't think her people would have had much faith in her if she had've walked through the Red Waste telling them that they should lead themselves because everyone is equal.

I didn't respond to this because it's inherently contradictory. If "blood of the dragon" was all she had left, then . . . wouldn't she, by definition, have had no followers? And not been a queen at all? Those guys weren't following her because she's a Targaryen. They probably knew zip about her family's storied history. You can't say that Dany had nothing but her heritage left while simultaneously talking about all those other things she also had.

Westeros is a feudal society, so all of the great houses - the Lannisters, Tyrells, Starks, et al. - all believe they're superior to the smallfolk. But Daenerys actually believes that she BELONGS to the small folk. "A queen does not belong to herself, but to her people."

I'd disagree about the Starks, but that threatens to go way off-topic. But as to your other points, I didn't respond because I think other posts have already done an excellent job pointing out how Dany's devotion to the people who practically worship her won't necessarily automatically transfer to Westerosi smallfolk who will probably have excellent reasons to be pissed at and oppose her.

Anyway, Dany is only using an excuse so she can help the sick. As we've seen a lot with her, she has to use her pride and her strength to hide her fears and uncertainties. Of course she knows the dangers of going out and helping those with the pale mare - but she doesn't want her people to worry about her (and one could argue that she also brings up what Viserys said to try and convince herself).

I didn't respond to this because I think it's unsupported by the scene. We saw this through Dany's POV. She thinks to herself that Viserys had a point, not that Viserys was an idiot but she has to convince Barristan somehow that this isn't dangerous to her. (She's the queen, she can do what she wants and Barristan and her bloodriders won't stop her.) But more importantly, even if she was trying to convince herself that she couldn't get sick, that still leaves her in the same position of being convinced that she can't get sick.

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Here's an unrelated and yet hard thought, filled with multi-generational perversion! :

What if the visitations from Quaithe aren't unique to Daenerys but were suffered by Aerys too as part of the Targaryen curse down through the ages? What if the "Targaryen madness" trait is really brought about by foreign interests broadcasting their voices into the heads of the mad kings via magic candles? What if Quaithe is just the beginning of the process and more voices will join in, meaning Aerys was messed with much more by the time he went certifiably nuts? Ancient enemies of Valyria haven't forgotten their grudges and continue to hound the last surviving scions of Valyrian rule. Saucy, huh?

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Well, it doesn't work on me. Don't get me wrong, but I actually think that the instintive association slavery = evil is an American thing (at least, an "anglo" characteristic), because of your history. IMO slavery doesn't have to imply that a society is evil, just that is still "developing". Slavery was an important characteristic of many ancient civilizations it's even in the freaking bible!

Slavery didn't make ancient Grecians or Romans evil. they just didn't know anything different. Which is why I don't think Dany is such a hero because she killed all those slaves they can be blamed by a modern point of view but, in-universe, they can't be blamed because they behaved as they were raised to do.

And, anyway, Westeros doesn't condamn slavery either, they just don't have it. Daenerys doesn't condamn slavery as istitution, she just thinks "OMG, slavery is bad! because slavers are evil". She's perfectly right, but she doesn't think the problem through. She doesn't think how Doreh was given to her as a slave, she doesn't think that there's really not much different between a slave and a poor man who works for a noble, as Tyrion does, she doesn't think about how much she's changing the society she's in and what this would imply. She just expect a culture which has been based on slavery for millennia to change from one day to the next, because she says so. Not everybody agrees with her, she should to understand them and to make them change their minds. No, she's just like "I got dragons, do as I say". C'mon honey, grow up a little.

It's like what Jon did, tying to make Marsh and Co accept the wildlings, only on a much bigger - and catastrophic - scale.

EDIT: Before somebody jumps at my throat, in the above chapter I haven't said I think slavery is good. I said that a civilization that employs slavery doesn't necessarily have to be evil

I think Dany does attack slavery as an institution. Her problem is that she equates slavery as an institution with slavers as people. She doesn't have the maturity to realize that those that forward an evil institution aren't necessarily evil individuals, but like you said, have just been raised to think that the institution is good. In her mind slavery = bad, so slavers = bad too - she doesn't get all the nuances that you pointed out - that some people must be slavers in order to survive, that poverty is worse for some than slavery is, or that economies built on slavery don't change overnight.

But the thing is, Dany herself is a product of Essos ( to a certain extent)- she's grown up with slavery in the Dothraki, and has also been raised to see it as normal. And yet, she deviated from the standard, default position of her own culture - somehow, for whatever reason, she realizes it is wrong. So while Dany can be blamed for not understanding the difference between an institution that is evil and individuals in that system, IMO she should be commended for thinking outside the box.

And just for the record, I'm not American or Anglo :)

On the one hand, I absolutely agree with many of your points. Dany does have compassion for her freedmen, she does genuinely want to help the people that follow her.

What troubles me is that issue of education. I'm reminded of Jon's interactions with Selyse, in which he bemoans, not the fact that people don't understand the wildlings, but the much worse problem: that they will not learn.

When people try to tell Dany that her family wasn't as wonderful as she thinks, she shuts them down. She's had multiple opportunities to "learn", and she's repeatedly chosen ignorance. More than that, she's begun believing some truly disturbing propaganda (that she got from Viserys of all people) about what it means to be a Targaryen, and she's interwoven the idea that "blood of the dragon" is special and unique into her personal identity in such inflexible ways that I'm very, very doubtful that she'll choose to listen to people who try to tell her she's wrong---about her blood, or about anything else.

Fair enough. You doubt that she will choose to listen, and I think she will eventually. Only time and GRRM will tell.

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TMoTO, I do like that aspect. We do know that Varys was pushing Aerys along a slippery slope into madness. If Aerys had received visitations from Qaithe, too, it brings in the possibility that Qaithe is related to Varys, and his plots, in some way. I am still waiting for the Great Stone Beast to take wing breathing shadow fire (Blackfire?).

Honestly, I do not see any Westerosi, outside of Dorne, accepting a female monarch. Daenerys bestowing herself with that title, just points to how vain Viserys made her. It will be telling, how Daenerys reacts to the news of Aegon (and Jon) having better claims to the throne than she. She may fall back on that "I have dragons" line, and end up getting eaten by a warged dragon.

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Tywin Lannister, Mace Tyrell, Robert, Cercei, Little Finger, Stannis even Ned Stark; none of these people were seen to make any progressive changes at all beyond the advancement of their houses.

:eek: ?

Yes, Ned Stark definitely made a lot of progressive changes to advance his own house...That is why his children are the rulers of the Westeros, probably... :shocked:

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I didn't respond to this because it's inherently contradictory. If "blood of the dragon" was all she had left, then . . . wouldn't she, by definition, have had no followers? And not been a queen at all? Those guys weren't following her because she's a Targaryen. They probably knew zip about her family's storied history. You can't say that Dany had nothing but her heritage left while simultaneously talking about all those other things she also had.

I think Patrick Stormborn's point is that since Dany has been on the run her whole life, been beaten down by Viserys, sold as a virtual slave to Drogo, and had to fight for her basic survival after he died, her dragons and heritage is all that she has left in terms of self-esteem, not her material worth.

IMO At this point in the series, Dany's quest for the Iron Throne is about security and family. She has never felt safe in her life, so she thinks that the Iron Throne will keep her safe. She has never had the love of a family member, so she latches on to the things that represent her family - dragons, and the Iron Throne - as a way to be close to their heritage. Its childish and naive, and certainly not a good reason to pursue rulership, but right now, this is what her character is.

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Jon Snow seems like the best person to rule because he is probably the only one who doesnt want it.

And there it is.

Basically, if she didn't have dragons, she'd be shacked up somewhere as Jorah's mistress. No one would give a damn about her lineage or "dragon blood".

Oh my goodness, this. Maybe not the exact "Jorah's mistress" thing. But the basic idea. Dany has what she does based on who she is. She was given the dragon eggs because she was a Targaryen, and she was able to "conquer" the cities that she did because she had dragons. Even her best soldiers, she didn't train. She "bought" them using subterfuge. She relies on her dragons and, yes, her looks to get what she does.

But all the Red Priests seem to think she's the "saviour" - so maybe we'll find out more in TWOW.

All the more reason to think she isn't.

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Honestly, I do not see any Westerosi, outside of Dorne, accepting a female monarch. Daenerys bestowing herself with that title, just points to how vain Viserys made her. It will be telling, how Daenerys reacts to the news of Aegon (and Jon) having better claims to the throne than she. She may fall back on that "I have dragons" line, and end up getting eaten by a warged dragon.

One thing that always bothered me about Dany is that she has accepted Viserys' rhetoric that they are the ones who deserve to rule. Sure Robert stole the throne from her father, but her great ancestors overcame many different kings by force, and even previous kings in her family came to the throne through force. Force is an acceptable way to win a throne. But if, like you said, Jon or Aegon do have a better claim than her, I am not sure how she would handle this. I can not see her just accepting the fact that she actually isn't the rightful heir of the Seven Kingdoms. I do not see her coming to Westeros, thinking she is the sole ruler and finding out someone else actually should be and just stepping aside. I, instead, see her having more of a meltdown like Viserys did.

Now, that is all the Dany that we know at the end of ADwD. There is time for her to change (although, not much). I imagine that at some point Barristan has to sit down with Dany and explain things about her family to her and that could change her. But it has to happen soon.

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..."If he had lived, I might have married him. Aegon would have been closer to my age than Viserys.

Dany said this in ADWD. I think she will take the logical course of action with Rhaegar's real son- marry him. He is the perfect match for her if she wants to secure the Targaryen line. They both carry the genes to pass on the features. & Targs are incestuous anyway so it can appeal to her.

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Dany said this in ADWD. I think she will take the logical course of action with Rhaegar's real son- marry him. He is the perfect match for her if she wants to secure the Targaryen line. They both carry the genes to pass on the features. & Targs are incestuous anyway so it can appeal to her.

Personally, I don't think that Aegon is the real Aegon, so when I speak of someone who could get in the way, I mean Jon. And I do think it will come down to her marrying Jon (although if she is barren, I don't see the point I'd rather she dies) but she has lived her whole live believing she is the rightful Queen of Westeros and I do not see the Dany we currently know marrying this illegitimate child.

I think Dany needs to learn more about ruling and doing the right thing and not just believing she is destined to rule because of her name. Barristan will have to teach her that.

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