(ADwD Spoilers) Dany the Mad Queen

[ARYa_Nym]

Personally, I don't think that Aegon is the real Aegon, so when I speak of someone who could get in the way, I mean Jon. And I do think it will come down to her marrying Jon (although if she is barren, I don't see the point I'd rather she dies) but she has lived her whole live believing she is the rightful Queen of Westeros and I do not see the Dany we currently know marrying this illegitimate child.

I think Dany needs to learn more about ruling and doing the right thing and not just believing she is destined to rule because of her name. Barristan will have to teach her that.

I don't think Aegon is real either. Dany will be suspicious of him and probably fight him. GRRM said that there would be a second Dance of Dragons. She should be suspicious. Illyrio never told her about him, Dorne didn't know about the baby switch, and he has the support of the Golden Company. Tyrion could also let slip Ilyrio's emotional attachment to the boy.

I think the Undying foreshadows that she will marry Rhaegar's real son eventually-Jon.

I don't think that Dany is barren. I do think that she was cursed though so I'm not sure if she can still live after having a living child.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Most of this already happened in ADWD. Her last chapter may have signified that her womb has quickened again. However, I don't see how a dead person can return to you unless you join them in the afterlife.

[Lord Godric]

I'm not sold on the fact that that is a prophecy. I imagined it was a way for Mirri Maz Duur to just say never. Like you said, it was an answer to when Drogo would be as he was before - and if all of those things are pieces of a prophecy and if we can interpret that they occurred in ADwD then Drogo should be back. And I just don't see that happening.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think it was a prophecy but a curse. Her womb has quickened again but she still has yet to give birth to a living child.

[Faint]

I'm not sold on the fact that that is a prophecy. I imagined it was a way for Mirri Maz Duur to just say never. Like you said, it was an answer to when Drogo would be as he was before - and if all of those things are pieces of a prophecy and if we can interpret that they occurred in ADwD then Drogo should be back. And I just don't see that happening.

They didn't all occur in ADwD since she did not give birth to a live child. Undoubtedly she will do so at some point and die in the process, thereby bringing her back with Drogo and completing the prophecy.

[Lord Godric]

They didn't all occur in ADwD since she did not give birth to a live child. Undoubtedly she will do so at some point and die in the process, thereby bringing her back with Drogo and completing the prophecy.

I think that would be a horrible ending to Dany's story. Defeated by childbirth? Daenerys the Unburned, Mother of Dragons blatty blah blah...dies giving birth? *Yawn* I do want Dany to die, but in a more elaborate way. Sacrificing herself for Westeros would do.

[ARYa_Nym]

It's very bittersweet imo. Both Jon and Dany have expressed the desire for a son. Dany will have her son but she will not live to raise him. Jon's son will have to grow up like he did-without a mother.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not sold on the fact that that is a prophecy. I imagined it was a way for Mirri Maz Duur to just say never. Like you said, it was an answer to when Drogo would be as he was before - and if all of those things are pieces of a prophecy and if we can interpret that they occurred in ADwD then Drogo should be back. And I just don't see that happening.

I don't think that, at the time, Mirri Maz Durr thought she was giving a prophecy. I think the way you do, that it was her way of saying "never." Yet at the same time, the phrase that was never meant to be a prophecy has ended up kind of becoming one.

I also hope to God that Jon and Dany do not get married or reproduce. Too cute by half, too convenient, too cute and too incest-y.

[Ghost Rider]

The reason why Barristan Selmy and others have not told Dany the truth yet about her family and father is possibly for reasons of future plot - it might serve the story better for Dany to learn the truth from Jon or another Stark.

Huh? What could they possibly tell her that Barristan couldn't? They don't even know much about these events, if anything at all. They know there was a rebellion and probably that Aerys had Brandon and Rickard Stark killed. Bran believes that Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna! So in Dany's place I wouldn't put too much trust in what the Stark kids tell me. I didn't get the feeling that Ned talked all that much about Mad King Aerys and his family. He probably didn't want to draw attention. The Reed kids were certainly surprised that Bran hadn't ever heard about the Harrenhal events.

If there's a person living who would be able to tell about the past events, it would be Jaime, none of the Stark kids. And he was at the center of action, so Daenerys would probably be inclined to summarily execute him, instead of listening to him.

It's certainly very interesting and a possibility that the books could go that way. That being said, it would be very jarring and constitute a major tonal shift out of nowhere.

Dany has always been portrayed rather sympathetically. Even now, Dany doesn't seem to have one opponent who seems to be a good person. The Mereneese and Yunkish slavers are nothing short of mustache-twirling cardboard cutout one dimensional villains who we haven't been given any reason ever to feel sympathetic towards. And Dany is freeing slaves after all in the middle of all this chaos.

He may have tried to show her sympathetically, but ... she won't win any popularity contests among the readership. And that is even though she has mostly dealt with evil villains who cruelly murder children for fun and to spite her. I still think the depiction of slavery in Essos is very much over the top as we have discussed on this board in the "unrealistic slavery societies" thread. So I cannot really take it seriously and it does devalue her efforts in my mind.

I also don't like the "exiled princess" coming back into her rights as the saviour of the realm trope, so I really do hope it won't play out like that. A descent into madness would make for an interesting twist on that and Daenerys as an antagonist would make me enjoy her character that much better.

I agree that it could go either way at the moment, but here's to hope! :cheers:

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

It's very bittersweet imo. Both Jon and Dany have expressed the desire for a son. Dany will have her son but she will not live to raise him. Jon's son will have to grow up like he did-without a mother.

I agree. Also, treason for love may be Jon choosing child's life over Dany's.

[Ghost Rider]

It's very bittersweet imo. Both Jon and Dany have expressed the desire for a son. Dany will have her son but she will not live to raise him. Jon's son will have to grow up like he did-without a mother.

To me that wouldn't be bittersweet, but incredibly cheesy! It's like Lupin and Tonks dying only for their child to grow up as an orphan in parallel to Harry. I really hope that will never happen. It's not as if other characters haven't expressed their desire for children. (Sansa for sure has, Robb as well, never came to pass though, oh well...) I'm not sure anyone could pull that story line off without it turning into a kind of soap opera.

The problem for Jon anyway wasn't that he had to grow up without a mother - many characters share that fate - but that he didn't even know who his mother was. Thus he was missing a very important part of identity when he didn't know his exact lineage. As he says, his mother could be a whore or a fishwife or a noblewoman. Some descents would be considered shameful.

[Capon Breath]

Here's an unrelated and yet hard thought, filled with multi-generational perversion! :

What if the visitations from Quaithe aren't unique to Daenerys but were suffered by Aerys too as part of the Targaryen curse down through the ages? What if the "Targaryen madness" trait is really brought about by foreign interests broadcasting their voices into the heads of the mad kings via magic candles? What if Quaithe is just the beginning of the process and more voices will join in, meaning Aerys was messed with much more by the time he went certifiably nuts? Ancient enemies of Valyria haven't forgotten their grudges and continue to hound the last surviving scions of Valyrian rule. Saucy, huh?

I really like this. We have already had a glimpse of both the self fulfilling nature of some prophecies (Rhaegar & 3 head for example), and the fact that not all prophecies are coming true -(eg Aegons change of direction). I was thinking of starting a thread about what people thought but now I like this theory even more, Prophecies being used as a weapon of discord.

Nice work

[ARYa_Nym]

To me that wouldn't be bittersweet, but incredibly cheesy! It's like Lupin and Tonks dying only for their child to grow up as an orphan in parallel to Harry. I really hope that will never happen. It's not as if other characters haven't expressed their desire for children. (Sansa for sure has, Robb as well, never came to pass though, oh well...) I'm not sure anyone could pull that story line off without it turning into a kind of soap opera.

The problem for Jon anyway wasn't that he had to grow up without a mother - many characters share that fate - but that he didn't even know who his mother was. Thus he was missing a very important part of identity when he didn't know his exact lineage. As he says, his mother could be a whore or a fishwife or a noblewoman. Some descents would be considered shameful.

I don't think it was only that. He grew up without his mother but his "siblings" grew up with theirs. He had to watch them receive motherly affection while he in turn received none. Now I'm not blaming Cat for this but this can be psychologically damaging for a child. It's a little bit like Theon seeing all the other Starks kids get direwoles even the bastard but he was left with nothing.

I don't think it makes sense for GRRM to set up the Targaryen House in these novels as well as in other ones for them to just die out. It dies with Dany and Jon. They need to reproduce.

...A son was something he never dared dream of...

I think specifically wishing for a son parallels with Dany losing one.

[fassreiter]

IMO At this point in the series, Dany's quest for the Iron Throne is about security and family. She has never felt safe in her life, so she thinks that the Iron Throne will keep her safe. She has never had the love of a family member, so she latches on to the things that represent her family - dragons, and the Iron Throne - as a way to be close to their heritage. Its childish and naive, and certainly not a good reason to pursue rulership, but right now, this is what her character is.

Nice summary of her character, very good points about her motivations. To me, this is exactly why I try to like her, as her actions are human and understandable. But this is also why she should not become the ruler of Westeros and why I think the slope into madness would be a fitting move on GRRM's part.

Very good points about Quaithe, too. This whole shadow prophecy business might indeed be no more than a play on emotions and fears. The three betrayals are almost too good as a way to play this fairy-trope not to be used: three is the magic number, but in reality, someone will always betray a queen on a large or a small scale, so there is no way ever to decide if it's over now - as a consequence Dany can never feel safe. But she will never think the prophecy was wrong, only her interpretation. Poor girl. I think this is a good start to paranoia, as apparently Aeyrs and Cersei suffer from, too. And we know Cersei had her share of prophecy, and we know Aerys started out fine.

And this 'red door'-reference - is it really a coincidence that the girl who dreams about this door is the one with the dragons that can turn the world into black charcoal? 'Paint it black', so to speak. It's a song about loss and lack of inner safety, after all. Every time I listen to the line 'I wanna see the sun blotted out from the sky' nowadays, I can't help but think of dragons.

[Whatever]

That isn't what happened at all. Dany freed the Unsullied and then they chose to follow her. She used them to end slavery (and to prevent the killing of innocent children and animals, as per their training). But they could have told her that they didn't want to follow her once she freed them, and she would have accepted that.

Ahem, no, she didn't. She screamed "Unsullied, you're mine" and then "Kill the Good Masters". She only freed them after that.

Anyway, my point was that she agreed to buy slaves, then she killed the people she was dealing with because slavery is bad. She cheated them.

Hence my buy weed-->don't have money-->kill the dealer because he's a criminal comparison.

Actually, slavery is punishable by death in Westeros.....And as for her point about not recognising the difference between a poor man working for nobles and slavery, I completely disagree. In one of her very first chapters she talks about Illyrio's "slaves" - despite slavery being illegal in Pentos.

Again, you didn't get my point. Westerosi might be against slavery, but the (some) lords treat their paesants the same way the Masters treat their slaves. There's no freaking difference, it's not like smallfolks in Westeros can just leave their lord because they are free. Yeah, they are. Free to go starve somewhere else.

THIS is what Dany can't get. There's no freaking difference and telling people they're free won't make them so.

As i said, she lives in her perfect pink world where everything is the way she wants it to be, and she won't face reality.

Dany said this in ADWD. I think she will take the logical course of action with Rhaegar's real son- marry him. He is the perfect match for her if she wants to secure the Targaryen line. They both carry the genes to pass on the features. & Targs are incestuous anyway so it can appeal to her.

When she thought that, Aegon was dead. She's definitively not expecting to go to Westeros and find Aegon sitting the Iron Throne and being cheered by the crowds.

I bet she won't like that.

(This is why i'd love to see a Dany/Aegon or a Dany/R+L=Jon political marriage.. see next quote)

EDIT:

I also hope to God that Jon and Dany do not get married or reproduce. Too cute by half, too convenient, too cute and too incest-y.

I really do. If this happens, it won't be cute. She will be mad with jealousy and he will be all like "OMG, how on earth did I end up with Cersei junior?" or something like that. Also, will be the third traitor. The whole thing will be hilarious.

I'm not that much of a Jon fan to be against something this fun :)

[Clementine]

Huh? What could they possibly tell her that Barristan couldn't? They don't even know much about these events, if anything at all. They know there was a rebellion and probably that Aerys had Brandon and Rickard Stark killed. Bran believes that Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna! So in Dany's place I wouldn't put too much trust in what the Stark kids tell me. I didn't get the feeling that Ned talked all that much about Mad King Aerys and his family. He probably didn't want to draw attention. The Reed kids were certainly surprised that Bran hadn't ever heard about the Harrenhal events.

If there's a person living who would be able to tell about the past events, it would be Jaime, none of the Stark kids. And he was at the center of action, so Daenerys would probably be inclined to summarily execute him, instead of listening to him.

Ah, good point - the Stark kids actually wouldn't know the truth either. And it is hard to believe she'll listen to Jaime at this point in the series. However, from her vision in the House of Undying, she basically sees exactly what Jaime heard Aerys say, which I think implies that she will eventually learn about what Aerys was planning to do, even if its not from Jaime.

I think what I meant at the time, though was that the Stark kids would be able to dismantle her notion that 'Usurpers dogs' ( or anyone associated with them)= Evil. Like I said somewhere on this thread, Dany has a huge problem separating individuals out from larger, more systemic problems. Just like she thinks slavery = Bad so all slavers = bad, she thinks that everyone who participated in Robert's Rebellion = bad. She doesn't get that good people can get swept along in the tide of historical events against their will, or that it is not always possible to foresee the consequences of your actions before hand

I think Dany may be quite jealous of the Starks, actually, especially the Jon/Arya dynamic ( my absolute two favourite characters :D) Their relationship is the perfect foil for hers with Viserys, and if she ever does meets them, it might soften her perception of the so-called Usurpers Dogs.

Very good points about Quaithe, too. This whole shadow prophecy business might indeed be no more than a play on emotions and fears. The three betrayals are almost too good as a way to play this fairy-trope not to be used: three is the magic number, but in reality, someone will always betray a queen on a large or a small scale, so there is no way ever to decide if it's over now - as a consequence Dany can never feel safe. But she will never think the prophecy was wrong, only her interpretation. Poor girl. I think this is a good start to paranoia, as apparently Aeyrs and Cersei suffer from, too. And we know Cersei had her share of prophecy, and we know Aerys started out fine.

The idea that Quaithe might actually be a figment of Dany's imagination is something I never considered before, but its pretty interesting. But yeah, if no one but Dany sees her, then how do we know she's real? I think someone mentioned in this thread ( or somewhere) that there are degrees of madness too, so its not clear if this is a manifestation of that.

But still, her interactions with Quaithe are about things that Dany can have no knowledge of ( or didn't at the time of the visions) - like glass candles, the pale mare etc. Also, theres the fact that some of the things Quaithe says actually do come true - the 'sun's son', and the pale mare, for instance. If these things are a product of her 'madness' then the fact that they actually come true doesn't fit.

So maybe, if Quaithe isn't real, Dany's prophetic, like some of her Targaryen ancestors?

I think specifically wishing for a son parallels with Dany losing one.

There's quite a few parallels between Dany and Jon, as people have pointed out on these boards. Too much to write off, IMO. Not sure of the specifics of how they will meet/what will happen when they do, but yeah, I definitely agree something will happen between them.

The point about it being cheesy : well, its certainly a fantasy cliche of sorts, but the fact that they're aunt-nephew ( if R+L=J is true of course) sort of subverts that IMO( due to the swick factor of incest). In the classic ' princess meets long lost hero' set up, real world medieval relationships ( where incest was more common) are glossed over or ignored for modern sensibilities. So in this sense, if Jon and Dany become an item, its less of fairly tale romance on GRRM's part, and more for reasons of future plot.

But either way, if its well written and believable, then thats what counts to me.

[Whatever]

The idea that Quaithe might actually be a figment of Dany's imagination is something I never considered before, but its pretty interesting. But yeah, if no one but Dany sees her, then how do we know she's real? I think someone mentioned in this thread ( or somewhere) that there are degrees of madness too, so its not clear if this is a manifestation of that.

I absolutely love this. It's even better than my Quaithe = Shiera Seastar theory.

The point about it being cheesy

It's not going to be cheesy, it's going to be horribly great. Trust me!! :D

[PatrickStormborn]

Ahem, no, she didn't. She screamed "Unsullied, you're mine" and then "Kill the Good Masters". She only freed them after that.

Anyway, my point was that she agreed to buy slaves, then she killed the people she was dealing with because slavery is bad. She cheated them.

Hence my buy weed-->don't have money-->kill the dealer because he's a criminal comparison.

Oh, okay. I stand corrected. But the idea is still the same: Daenerys doesn't ever buy them. She is given command of them and then uses them to kill their old masters. But after that she frees them, and they CHOOSE to follow her. It's not the same as buying weed and then killing the dealer, because the weed doesn't have the choice to follow you. The same could have happened with the slavers and Drogon, as they could have used him to kill Daenerys and then reclaimed the Unsullied.

She used the Unsullied to kill the slavers, because she couldn't do it without them. But then she gave them the choice to follow her, and they did. So she didn't need to pay for them.

Again, you didn't get my point. Westerosi might be against slavery, but the (some) lords treat their paesants the same way the Masters treat their slaves. There's no freaking difference, it's not like smallfolks in Westeros can just leave their lord because they are free. Yeah, they are. Free to go starve somewhere else.

THIS is what Dany can't get. There's no freaking difference and telling people they're free won't make them so.

As i said, she lives in her perfect pink world where everything is the way she wants it to be, and she won't face reality.

I really don't think that they're comparable...It's not like in Pentos, for example, where slavery still exists despite being illegal. I do see your point, but the fact is that the slaves all WANT to be freed.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I'd much rather be a "peasant" than a slave.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

There's quite a few parallels between Dany and Jon, as people have pointed out on these boards. Too much to write off, IMO. Not sure of the specifics of how they will meet/what will happen when they do, but yeah, I definitely agree something will happen between them.

The point about it being cheesy : well, its certainly a fantasy cliche of sorts, but the fact that they're aunt-nephew ( if R+L=J is true of course) sort of subverts that IMO( due to the swick factor of incest). In the classic ' princess meets long lost hero' set up, real world medieval relationships ( where incest was more common) are glossed over or ignored for modern sensibilities. So in this sense, if Jon and Dany become an item, its less of fairly tale romance on GRRM's part, and more for reasons of future plot.

But either way, if its well written and believable, then thats what counts to me.

I cannot agree here, of course, to each his own but if Jon and Daenerys is cheesy and boring to me, Jon and Daenerys being an item if they are nephew and aunt is cheesy and disgusting :ack:

[PatrickStormborn]

The idea that Quaithe might actually be a figment of Dany's imagination is something I never considered before, but its pretty interesting. But yeah, if no one but Dany sees her, then how do we know she's real? I think someone mentioned in this thread ( or somewhere) that there are degrees of madness too, so its not clear if this is a manifestation of that.

But still, her interactions with Quaithe are about things that Dany can have no knowledge of ( or didn't at the time of the visions) - like glass candles, the pale mare etc. Also, theres the fact that some of the things Quaithe says actually do come true - the 'sun's son', and the pale mare, for instance. If these things are a product of her 'madness' then the fact that they actually come true doesn't fit.

So maybe, if Quaithe isn't real, Dany's prophetic, like some of her Targaryen ancestors?

Plenty of other characters have encountered Quaithe. Dany and her party saw her in Qarth and in Vaes Tolorro. The only time others can't see her is when she appears via the glass candles.

Quaithe hasn't made Dany paranoid, anyway. She constantly thinks to herself throughout ADWD that, even if she can't trust anyone, she can still work with them and use them to her benefit. This is exactly the same as how Littlefinger et al. operate.

[PatrickStormborn]

I cannot agree here, of course, to each his own but if Jon and Daenerys is cheesy and boring to me, Jon and Daenerys being an item if they are nephew and aunt is cheesy and disgusting :ack:

Jon/Daenerys isn't as bad as Jon/Sansa or Jon/Arya, because at least the two of them weren't raised together as relatives.