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Sandor Clegane v. 11


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Sorry me again....and remember the MOD warning, least we find everything we have analyzed deleted!

Anyway, the last post of the old thread was from

Morally Grey

Or, (if Sansa ever becomes a villain/mini!LF) Sandor might become to her what she had been to him -- a reminder of what she was, also could be a positive force for her. How she'll react when they meet again is one of the things I mostly anticipate in the series.

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Morally Grey

Or, (if Sansa ever becomes a villain/mini!LF) Sandor might become to her what she had been to him -- a reminder of what she was, also could be a positive force for her. How she'll react when they meet again is one of the things I mostly anticipate in the series.

This is my feeling.

Everyone says that the direwolves are the Starks' connection to who they are, and Arya meeting up with Nymeria might break her out of Faceless Man mode. Likewise, I think that the Hound might be Sansa's connection to who she is. Arya, Jon and Bran dream of direwolves, Sansa dreams of the Hound and Winterfell.

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~random~

I'm still re-reading some of the Arya + Hound scenes in ASoS, and I'm surprised by how much Sandor breaks through Arya's (usually unrelenting) wall of hatred, without really even trying. She very nearly stops hating him, kind of against her will. We've of course talked about how she unintentionally leaves him off her deathlist, but there's also a moment during the scene with Polliver and the Tickler where he says something awful about how Cersei should dip Tyrion in boiling oil (or something?) and takes a swig of wine, and Arya thinks:

"He's just like them. I should kill him in his sleep." (paraphrasing, because once again I don't have the book with me at the moment)

The obvious implication from the bolded part is that, somewhere along the way, Arya had fallen into the habit of thinking he wasn't like Polliver, the Tickler, and the others on her deathlist.

And then later, during the actual fight when Polliver and the Tickler seem to be winning, she thinks with dismay, "They're killing him." Part of her distress, I'm sure, was that she knew the Hound was the lesser of two evils and that she'd at least be somewhat better off with him than with the other two. But she also seems genuinely upset by the thought of Sandor's death. At any rate, it's a stark contrast to the way she savagely cheered for him to die during his fight with Dondarrion. It makes me seriously doubt if she would have gone through with killing him later on, if he hadn't open his eyes and caught her out. I tend to think she wouldn't have done it, not when it came right down to it.

I don't know, I just think it's interesting. And I think it's a huge statement about his potential for decency and redemption that he wore down Arya of all people. Arya, who had every reason to hate him and who, let's face it, as much as I love her, is an angry, grudgy little thing who is not prone to forgiveness. If they both survive the series (unlikely, I know) and for some reason end up in the same place... well, I don't think they could ever be friends, but if Arya could see him show genuine remorse over Mycah, I think they could have a civil relationship with a sort of mutual, grudging respect.

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Hi girls ,

I have no intention to annoy you, really not. BUT I JUST DON'T GET IT! This is the eleventh thread about Sandor in these forums. There must have been considerable trouble with fanfic in former threads, i never read it because I am in these forums for not so very long so far, so what was it about?

No doubt Sandor is an interesting character, not only for you but as well for me as unbiased reader. But there are quite a few male characters who are intriguing, some of them even are POV's. So I wonder if that protagonist is so loaded with emotions exactly because he is the white sheet of paper that can be filled with all kinds of projections - he can't object.

I simply can't understand why Sandor has all those fangirls around him, why not other male characters who appear to being so much more elaborated, like Jaime, Jon, Tyrion, Jorah.

Can't be his brains - there are some more clever

Can't be his qualities as a leader - some have more to offer, he has never been in power, so all debates about politics and morality, good and bad decisions are better led elsewhere

Can't be his beauty - maybe a good body, but Jaime as well, Jon may not be ugly either and Jorah could be shaved

Can't be his broken life story - others have at least as many conflicts to offer

Can't be his love life - maybe a cute little crush, more interesting events happen with some other characters

No, honestly, I don't get it. As I wrote from time to time I find the idea of Sansa and Sandor really having sex creepy and ugly, but even literary characters can do what they want alone in their bed, thoughts are free. If Martin should make them fuck in the books I won't like it but that would be the story then, the writer's business, not mine. But why do you discuss it in such a whishful manner, why is a potential lovestory between a child and a murderer so fascinating?

Why is Sandor so much better suited for hot nightly dreams than sexy Jaime or Oberyn, valiant Jon, fascinating Tyrion, brave Ned or cunning Littlefinger or... or ... ? Because we don't know very much about Sandor and thus can fill the gaps with our own fantasies?

There is this fangirl identification stuff. I am not thirteen anymore for a very, very long time so it is virtually impossible for me to identify erotically with a girl younger than my own children. Maybe I simply know too much about good and bad sex, I was an early starter, but with boys my age!!

And there are other male characters who are at least as interesting erotically as that rather grumpy, not exactly communicative guy, even as morally ambiguus figure I could find other examples.

If a few of you could post their ideas - i will stay polite and just listen and then leave you alone with each other in this thread again. I don't want to provoke anyone but so far this fandom is beyond my understanding, sorry.

Please don't feel offended but help me understand.

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About Arya and Hound - it takes one to know one.

But, why shoud she care if the Lannisters boil each other in hot oil?

And do they think that Sansa really killed Joff? Arya does not think so (Sansa only knew songs), but Sandor might. He already stopped her once.

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Hi girls ,

I have no intention to annoy you, really not. BUT I JUST DON'T GET IT! This is the eleventh thread about Sandor in these forums. There must have been considerable trouble with fanfic in former threads, i never read it because I am in these forums for not so very long so far, so what was it about?

No doubt Sandor is an interesting character, not only for you but as well for me as unbiased reader. But there are quite a few male characters who are intriguing, some of them even are POV's. So I wonder if that protagonist is so loaded with emotions exactly because he is the white sheet of paper that can be filled with all kinds of projections - he can't object.

I simply can't understand why Sandor has all those fangirls around him, why not other male characters who appear to being so much more elaborated, like Jaime, Jon, Tyrion, Jorah.

Can't be his brains - there are some more clever

Can't be his qualities as a leader - some have more to offer, he has never been in power, so all debates about politics and morality, good and bad decisions are better led elsewhere

Can't be his beauty - maybe a good body, but Jaime as well, Jon may not be ugly either and Jorah could be shaved

Can't be his broken life story - others have at least as many conflicts to offer

Can't be his love life - maybe a cute little crush, more interesting events happen with some other characters

No, honestly, I don't get it. As I wrote from time to time I find the idea of Sansa and Sandor really having sex creepy and ugly, but even literary characters can do what they want alone in their bed, thoughts are free. If Martin should make them fuck in the books I won't like it but that would be the story then, the writer's business, not mine. But why do you discuss it in such a whishful manner, why is a potential lovestory between a child and a murderer so fascinating?

Why is Sandor so much better suited for hot nightly dreams than sexy Jaime or Oberyn, valiant Jon, fascinating Tyrion, brave Ned or cunning Littlefinger or... or ... ? Because we don't know very much about Sandor and thus can fill the gaps with our own fantasies?

There is this fangirl identification stuff. I am not thirteen anymore for a very, very long time so it is virtually impossible for me to identify erotically with a girl younger than my own children. Maybe I simply know too much about good and bad sex, I was an early starter, but with boys my age!!

And there are other male characters who are at least as interesting erotically as that rather grumpy, not exactly communicative guy, even as morally ambiguus figure I could find other examples.

If a few of you could post their ideas - i will stay polite and just listen and then leave you alone with each other in this thread again. I don't want to provoke anyone but so far this fandom is beyond my understanding, sorry.

Please don't feel offended but help me understand.

No, not really. Just one or two threads. We were reigned in and have made it to 11 threads because we keep the discussion going. We've analyzed pretty much all there is to analyze about Sandor, but since new members join in, we have reason to go back over things, or discuss things more in depth.

We like Sandor because he's cynical, he's blunt, he's harsh, he's funny, he's emotional at the strangest times, he has an awful life story but he isn't prone to self-pity, he doesn't use people, he's honest and I could go on but I think I'll stop there.

Regarding other dudes in the story - Jon does nothing for me, personally. I love Jorah, and Oberyn (RIP), Ned is boring, Littlefinger is creepy, and Tyrion...Tyrion has too much baggage and self-pity for me. But I've elaborated on my feelings about Tyrion in other threads, I'll not do it here.

You may be right that we like Sandor because he's a mystery. We've often said that it's better he DOESN'T have a POV, because maybe we don't want to know what's going on in his head.

You don't have to get it. It's fine. But please be aware that although we squee and ship, we're more than just silly fangirls. We do like serious discussion, but we also like to have fun.

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Why is Sandor so much better suited for hot nightly dreams than sexy Jaime or Oberyn, valiant Jon, fascinating Tyrion, brave Ned or cunning Littlefinger or... or ... ?

i don't know how your sexuality works, but I never sit by day and choose what fictional character is the most worthy of my hot night dreams :).

If you wonder why we like him - read one of those ten treads. If you wonder why we like him so much - he just rocks our boats.

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Hi girls ,

I have no intention to annoy you, really not. BUT I JUST DON'T GET IT! This is the eleventh thread about Sandor in these forums. There must have been considerable trouble with fanfic in former threads, i never read it because I am in these forums for not so very long so far, so what was it about?

No doubt Sandor is an interesting character, not only for you but as well for me as unbiased reader. But there are quite a few male characters who are intriguing, some of them even are POV's. So I wonder if that protagonist is so loaded with emotions exactly because he is the white sheet of paper that can be filled with all kinds of projections - he can't object.

I simply can't understand why Sandor has all those fangirls around him, why not other male characters who appear to being so much more elaborated, like Jaime, Jon, Tyrion, Jorah.

Can't be his brains - there are some more clever

Can't be his qualities as a leader - some have more to offer, he has never been in power, so all debates about politics and morality, good and bad decisions are better led elsewhere

Can't be his beauty - maybe a good body, but Jaime as well, Jon may not be ugly either and Jorah could be shaved

Can't be his broken life story - others have at least as many conflicts to offer

Can't be his love life - maybe a cute little crush, more interesting events happen with some other characters

No, honestly, I don't get it. As I wrote from time to time I find the idea of Sansa and Sandor really having sex creepy and ugly, but even literary characters can do what they want alone in their bed, thoughts are free. If Martin should make them fuck in the books I won't like it but that would be the story then, the writer's business, not mine. But why do you discuss it in such a whishful manner, why is a potential lovestory between a child and a murderer so fascinating?

Why is Sandor so much better suited for hot nightly dreams than sexy Jaime or Oberyn, valiant Jon, fascinating Tyrion, brave Ned or cunning Littlefinger or... or ... ? Because we don't know very much about Sandor and thus can fill the gaps with our own fantasies?

There is this fangirl identification stuff. I am not thirteen anymore for a very, very long time so it is virtually impossible for me to identify erotically with a girl younger than my own children. Maybe I simply know too much about good and bad sex, I was an early starter, but with boys my age!!

And there are other male characters who are at least as interesting erotically as that rather grumpy, not exactly communicative guy, even as morally ambiguus figure I could find other examples.

If a few of you could post their ideas - i will stay polite and just listen and then leave you alone with each other in this thread again. I don't want to provoke anyone but so far this fandom is beyond my understanding, sorry.

Please don't feel offended but help me understand.

There are enough different characters for everybody. Sandor fangirls are just the loudest :). And I like Jaime too. And I like Sandor more as a fighter than a lover.

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About Arya and Hound - it takes one to know one.

But, why shoud she care if the Lannisters boil each other in hot oil?

And do they think that Sansa really killed Joff? Arya does not think so (Sansa only knew songs), but Sandor might. He already stopped her once.

That is an excellent point. Sandor is the only one who knows how close Joff came to being pushed. The dialogue and relationship between Arya and Sandor is a complex one. Oddly I thought in there last scene it is Arya that acts in a Sansa (ish) way by holding his behaviour up to him and saying that he shouldn't of hit her and that he should have rescued her mother. Both of which fit the childish view Sansa has of what a Knight is supposed to do.

I always felt sad that Arya never really appreciated that he saved her life.

Edit: @ Woman of War

We all like different characters for different reasons. I personally don't understand those who think Jaime is now a paragon of virtue, or that Tyrion should be excused from being a murderer and a rapist because he had a hard life, or people who vilify Jon because they find him boring, or hate Dany because she acts like a teenage girl in her crush on Daario and makes a few mistakes. There have been several appreciation threads recently that have had some interesting debates.

I think one of the things that marks Sandor Clegane out as a character is most people like him even though he is a drunk, a murderer and has the social skills of a bull in a china shop. Unlike other characters discussed in other threads, almost nobody makes excuses or defends his negative actions.

I've seen several posters taken aback that they do not get any comeback on this thread for posting they don't like the guy. No one is saying he is Baelor The Blessed come again. But then what do I know, my two childhood heroes were JR Ewing and Darth Vader!

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To respond to Woman of War's questions on why we may not necessarily see the other characters in the same kind of "erotic" light as Sandor, well, I think it all boils down to his interaction with Sansa. Honestly I challenge any poster to give me another relationship that has such erotic and romantic undertones as the one they share. Sure it may be creepy for some, and by its very nature it is inappropriate, illicit and twisted, but therein lies the massive appeal. I didn't think of Sandor in those terms until he started "surprising" Sansa on her way back to her room and telling her stories of his life. Yes, yes, I know she's 12! but as I said before I blame GRRM and keep it moving :P

I crush on Jon too, but he's too young to really fantazise about without feeling pervy, and Jaime's obsession with Cersei just kills any erotic vibe for me. (Tyrion :ack: ) I guess it boils down to personal perference, but overall, it is very difficult to talk about Sandor without talking about Sansa, and vice versa - which has the effect of making them the great love story of the series.

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Woman of War: It really just comes down to the fact that people are different. Really. It's as simple as that. You don't find Sandor Clegane to be a compelling character, and that's fine, but different things are going to interest different people, and a lot of people obviously find him fascinating. The other male characters you mentioned don't interest me a great deal (I like Jaime but the fact that he fucks his sister is a big turn-off, I find Jon to be too whiny and emo, Tyrion I think has become a self-pitying little shit, and Jorah just bores me), but I understand and accept that other people have their own reasons for loving those characters and I'm happy to let them talk about them to their heart's content.

For what it's worth, I personally don't find Sandor attractive at all. On the contrary, he's exactly the kind of guy I'd NEVER date in real life. But I love talking about him, because he's complicated and complex and because of all the other reasons headtrip_honey mentioned in her post. Yes, there are other characters who are complicated and complex as well, but for various reasons they don't grip me the way Sandor Clegane does. Again, it's just a personal preference.

Also, he has extensive interactions with Sansa and Arya, two characters I adore, and that contributes to my fondness for him as well, I think.

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There wasn't any real trouble with fanfic in previous threads. The mods felt that this board wasn't an appropriate platform for some of the speculation, is all.

I think that if you don't understand why people like Sandor, or SanSan, then no explanation out there will change that. You either like him or you don't. Different people enjoy different things. I find Sandor to be a compelling and enjoyable character, thus I enjoy talking about him.

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I agree with Headtrip_Honey,

While i like the Sansa & Sandor dynamic its not what drew me to the character. What drew me to Sandor was his anti-knight attitude, the fact that he crushes Sansa's thoughts on True Knights and shows her the harsh reality of what really living amongst royals is like, and that its not like the pretty songs she's heard and loved, i love that hes blunt, and harsh like Honeytrip said, and yet has his own version of being gentle. He has two sides, which is fun to watch. I always found it interesting that a lot of non POV character could draw such followings (like Bronn, again i love him just the same as Sandor, because neither one will bullshit why they do what they do, or why they do it)

I think about 60% of the male characters are interesting, and i enjoy a lot of their character arcs and their progression through the books Jaime especially. I like talking about all the characters, cant say its only Sandor... but hes definitely in my top ten favorites.

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Morally Grey Or, (if Sansa ever becomes a villain/mini!LF) Sandor might become to her what she had been to him -- a reminder of what she was, also could be a positive force for her. How she'll react when they meet again is one of the things I mostly anticipate in the series.

I will say that it is possible Sansa could go down that sort of road, but honestly? I am so sick of the theory that she's turning into evil. So sick. I just don't see it happening, and as much as I've read reasoning pro this theory I am not convinced. I think she will become a better liar and "player" maybe even extract vengeance on some of the baddies, but evil? That is something different from vengeance and to me it at least, is unlikely to happen.

Hi girls , I have no intention to annoy you, really not. BUT I JUST DON'T GET IT! This is the eleventh thread about Sandor in these forums. There must have been considerable trouble with fanfic in former threads, i never read it because I am in these forums for not so very long so far, so what was it about? No doubt Sandor is an interesting character, not only for you but as well for me as unbiased reader. But there are quite a few male characters who are intriguing, some of them even are POV's. So I wonder if that protagonist is so loaded with emotions exactly because he is the white sheet of paper that can be filled with all kinds of projections - he can't object. I simply can't understand why Sandor has all those fangirls around him, why not other male characters who appear to being so much more elaborated, like Jaime, Jon, Tyrion, Jorah. No, honestly, I don't get it. As I wrote from time to time I find the idea of Sansa and Sandor really having sex creepy and ugly, but even literary characters can do what they want alone in their bed, thoughts are free. If Martin should make them fuck in the books I won't like it but that would be the story then, the writer's business, not mine. But why do you discuss it in such a whishful manner, why is a potential lovestory between a child and a murderer so fascinating? Why is Sandor so much better suited for hot nightly dreams than sexy Jaime or Oberyn, valiant Jon, fascinating Tyrion, brave Ned or cunning Littlefinger or... or ... ? Because we don't know very much about Sandor and thus can fill the gaps with our own fantasies? There is this fangirl identification stuff. I am not thirteen anymore for a very, very long time so it is virtually impossible for me to identify erotically with a girl younger than my own children. Maybe I simply know too much about good and bad sex, I was an early starter, but with boys my age!! And there are other male characters who are at least as interesting erotically as that rather grumpy, not exactly communicative guy, even as morally ambiguus figure I could find other examples. If a few of you could post their ideas - i will stay polite and just listen and then leave you alone with each other in this thread again. I don't want to provoke anyone but so far this fandom is beyond my understanding, sorry. Please don't feel offended but help me understand.

Okey, I hope what I say will help make some sense of it.

I agree with what headtrip said, and wish to expand by saying that even if you never personally get the attraction to his character / shippings etc, what I would hope you come away with is that we are more than squeeing fangirls. We may be pretty lighthearted but we have had serious conversation upon serious conversations of analysis both on his character, and auxillary characters around Sandor. In essence, I would hope that you come away not dismissing us for our lighthearted side. I find that there is a very negative stereotype on "fangirls" and to be honest it pisses me off to no end, and makes me feel as misunderstood as Sandor probably does in the novels with his problems. If I hear another phrase to the essence of "shove a cork in it and go read some Twilight", I might very well hurt someone. I don't even like Twilight, god! And I'm a grown ass woman, maybe not in my 30's, but not a child to be treated such. :eyeroll:

However, I found your post very respectful for a differing opinion, so thank you :)

That said, the why's.

I like Sandor for his character arc, speaking broadly. You are right in conjecturing that as a non-POV he cannot object to anything that's put on him in the writing. Even so, I believe his reactions throughout have been consistent with the factors of how he is characterized to begin with, as well as the situational dynamics of the chapter, e.g what's occurring, is he drunk/sober/sad/mad/etc, who's around.....list goes on.

In comparison to other, more prominent male characters, well, I like Sandor, but I also really like characters like Jorah, Jon, Tyrion, et al. It's just because this is a Sandor thread that you won't find me going on about what I think about those guys :P In fact if I had to choose, Tyrion is my favorite male character, period, not Sandor (blasphemy? lol maybe). There are other appreciation threads for them, yes (well I don't think there's a Jorah one yet...) but I find myself more active on this one. I think it's because unlike Jon and Tyrion, he isn't a POV so that makes him harder to get a handle on, and so there's more to discuss. I mean we see Jon and Tyrion's motivations because we are in their heads. It's not so, with the Hound. There's less wiggle room for speculation on them vs. Sandor, if that makes sense. Thus why I go on and on about dissecting the times his character has appeared, whereas you know, I know why Tyrion hates his father, or how he got out of the Eyrie, or where he's at right now and if he's for-sure alive.

Can't be his brains - there are some more clever

Can't be his qualities as a leader - some have more to offer, he has never been in power, so all debates about politics and morality, good and bad decisions are better led elsewhere

Can't be his beauty - maybe a good body, but Jaime as well, Jon may not be ugly either and Jorah could be shaved

Can't be his broken life story - others have at least as many conflicts to offer

Can't be his love life - maybe a cute little crush, more interesting events happen with some other characters

When I was reading this part, I nodded, because it's extremely true. So I gave it a little thought and what I came up with was that yes, there are characters that do these things better. But damn it, good for them, but that's why I like Sandor. He is far from perfect, and as much as I love someone who's all badass, hair flowing in the wind, always winning, people bow before them, etc, that gets kind of old. Someone like Sandor who has his moments of glory but also his moments of complete stupidity or bastardlyness just seems more dynamic and (dare I say...?) truer to life?

No, honestly, I don't get it. As I wrote from time to time I find the idea of Sansa and Sandor really having sex creepy and ugly, but even literary characters can do what they want alone in their bed, thoughts are free. If Martin should make them fuck in the books I won't like it but that would be the story then, the writer's business, not mine. But why do you discuss it in such a whishful manner, why is a potential lovestory between a child and a murderer so fascinating?

Well, just to say, I personally don't want them to be fucking right now. Sansa shouldn't be doing that with any person, even if they were her age. She's 13, edging on 14 IIRC. I personally didn't have sex for the first time until I was fifteen and some odd months, and it was with my boyfriend of the same age. :shrug: I think there's nothing wrong with them connecting in a verbal etc way, perhaps that kiss, but going further than that right now would bug me. I'd prefer her to be 16+ (westeros age of majority or older, thus).

I wouldn't be wishful if I didn't see the signs that it wsa developing and that it made the characters involved happy. If they hadn't had that rapport and weren't so fixated on one another, I wouldn't give it a word or a thought. If it made one of them unhappy as in I don't want to be with that person, I wouldn't give it a word or a thought. But you know what, the idea does seem to make both parties happy and who am I to judge what they want to do? I mean, they're fictional.

Also... murderer. Most men in Westeros now and by the end of the war, will have killed people. Sansa would be hardpressed to find someone who hadn't.

Why is Sandor so much better suited for hot nightly dreams than sexy Jaime or Oberyn, valiant Jon, fascinating Tyrion, brave Ned or cunning Littlefinger or... or ... ? Because we don't know very much about Sandor and thus can fill the gaps with our own fantasies?

There is this fangirl identification stuff. I am not thirteen anymore for a very, very long time so it is virtually impossible for me to identify erotically with a girl younger than my own children. Maybe I simply know too much about good and bad sex, I was an early starter, but with boys my age!!

I have with Jon and Oberyn though, WoW. The appeal is there ;)

Sandor IDK, maybe I just like tall, strong dark haired men. Oh wait, I do. In real life, too.

And to be honest when I think of someone erotically I'm not so hung up over their reading on the morals spectrum. It just doesn't factor in for me in these "fantasy" type situations. If I was going to date someone in real life of course I would care about such things but I'm not so doesn't even matter if they're hero or villain.

I have never, I believe, been unrealistic about Sansa's sexuality. I can -sort of- remember myself at that age as I'm not twenty years ahead of her age, but I have known good and bad sex. So for me this romanticized sexual first time at 13 and it's so magical and doesn't hurt and pretty pretty - noooo.

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Sandor is an interesting character. In the real life I wouldn't want that such a man appear in my environment, but in a fiction his complexity is interesting.

I have developped it at an earlier thread, I think his popularity comes more or less from his age. Most of the characters in the story are either too young (Robb, Thean, Jon, Young Griff etc.), either too old (Ser Barristan), either too creepy (Bastard Bolton), or die too early (Red Viper, Kal Drogo) just to mention some exemplair. So, the man in adult age, in more or less healthy body, and in more or less acceptabe morality are far too few: Jaime or Sandor. Actually I cannot mention more male character. so this can be an explanation.

And finally, for me, I have to admit, it was the name. Sandor is a quite popular name in my country and I feel him as a compatriote, so I simply cannot believe he is such a terrible man, no he cannot be

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