Why on earth did Arya not have...

[sulla88]

Okay, having just re-read CoK, I am wondering about the part in which Arya is brought to Harrenhal by the Mountain and is put to work serving the current proprietors, which is Lord Tywin's host and allies. A few days later Rorge, Biter and Jaqen H'ghar come rolling in to Harrenhal. H'ghar sees Arya and offers to kill any three people of her choosing in order to make up for her saving the three of them from the fire earlier in the novel. Now, is there some reason that Arya could not choose Tywin Lannister? He is the primary military commander of the enemies of House Stark, the most formidable, and the one likely to give her brother the biggest challenge. Killing him would have came close to winning the war in itself. Jaqen H'Ghar is a Faceless Man, an assassin of supreme skill and ability, is there some reason he could not have killed Lord Tywin? Or the Mountain? Instead Arya picks out a few nobodies which make absolutely no difference. I mean, Weese? I have noticed as this story progresses that Arya really isn't the smartest person around, in fact my early sympathy for her has pretty much evaporated. I think Sansa, to my surprise, has become the more interesting sympathetic character of the Stark girls.

[Winter is coming?]

Arya is a young girl, and probably didn't even think about the 'big picture' when choosing who to whisper to Jaqen. To say Arya isn't the smartest person around isn't necessarily untrue, but it's circumstantial as well. She's so young, and she's basically all alone so all she's focused on is surviving by any means necessary. And if you think Sansa has become the more interesting sympathetic character of the Stark girls now, then just you keep reading, my friend ;). Both the Stark girls are amazing in their own way. I hated Sansa at first, but now (just finished A Feast for Crows)....not so much :)

[sulla88]

Good point. I know I picked a weak argument, since if Martin had written that Jaqen H'Ghar killed Lord Tywin and the Mountain if Arya had chosen them, it would have been a bit of a cop out and deus ex machina. And yes, I have finished AFFC, and you're right, Sansa is coming into her own.

[Lord Barristan]

Also there is the fact that at first she doesn't believe that H'Ghar can actually kill these men... And remember, she tries to take back Weese and have it be Lord Tywin, but by then Jaqen had already had Weese killed by his own dog.

I think it was only then that she realized he actually could kill anyone. He tells her he would even kill Joffrey, but it would take a while... So yea, as you say, she doesn't see the big picture, but I think the key is she doesn't truly believe this guy is capable of killing anyone.

[Maester Joergensen]

Arya is pretty resourceful, so people often forget how young she is. Killing Weese and Chiswyck, was maybe a bit immature, but she did it in a temporary fit of anger. Who doesn´t think the story that Chiswyck told about the rape of the barmaid was pretty awful, and Chiswyck was just sitting there laughthing about it. It is understandable that a young girl like Arya was so angry about iy that she just wanted to hurt him, and Jaqen give her the means. And Weese was abusing her on a daily basis. Who knew how long she would have survived under his care. Working hard, eating poorly and getting beaten. It is easy to sit in our comptable chairs with our book in hand and be all rational all the time. But if you haven¨t eaten for days and are getting beaten it is not that easy to think of the big picture. You just wan´t to get out of the bad situation you are in.

[kephv]

Because she's thinking about the present when she chooses her first two. Chiswyck's and his disgusting story are what pushed her to choose him. Weese because she knows she'll never be able to escape under his watch and because of his brutality towards her. Also, she does realize her mistake after she sees Tywin leaving. She's just too late in finding Jaqen to tell him she's changed her mind.

As for why Arya didn't pick him for her third kill, she needed to get the northmen free, and she didn't necessarily think she was using up her third kill (she asks Jaqen for a third after it's over and he tells her she's being greedy).

[sulla88]

Well, Arya still seems pretty dense sometimes. Maybe a tad above Gendry in the brains department, if that. Or maybe it is the casual killing that she seems to hanker for that is making her a less interesting character for me than she was. And I wouldn't use age as an excuse in a book in which a 15 year old boy is commanding an army of 20,000. Most of them seem to act years older than we would expect.

[wyman's cook]

thinkong of the characters ages while reading these novels is only gonna ruin it for you...can't really get what, mr martin was thinking ...and no i'm not buying the "in the middle ages people grew up faster etc etc" excuse...the ages vs. acts/thoughts situations, in these books are just plain wrong and kinna "ruin" the story

[Ser Malthred Storm]

She chose Cheswyck to see if Jaqen would really do it--(Though the story should have made her say The Mountain) , and Weese was impulsive. But I agree, she could have pretty much ended the war by saying: Tywin Lannister, Cersei Lannister, and Joffrey Lannister-Baratheon.

[kephv]

she could have pretty much ended the war by saying: Tywin Lannister, Cersei Lannister, and Joffrey Lannister-Baratheon.

That depends. All of those kills could've very well taken years to accomplish.

[Joyce Wang]

Also there is the fact that at first she doesn't believe that H'Ghar can actually kill these men... And remember, she tries to take back Weese and have it be Lord Tywin, but by then Jaqen had already had Weese killed by his own dog.

I think it was only then that she realized he actually could kill anyone. He tells her he would even kill Joffrey, but it would take a while... So yea, as you say, she doesn't see the big picture, but I think the key is she doesn't truly believe this guy is capable of killing anyone.

I share your point of view. How could she know a prisoner for the KL is capable of killing anyone whose names were said?? It took 2 deaths to make her realise the names could actually be somebody, and out of the castle. I somehow feel Jaqen was tricking her. He just wanted to get the whole thing quickly done and over with.It is convenient for him if Ayra thought he could only kill some small potatoes in the castle.

[Greyjoy the Reaver]

thinkong of the characters ages while reading these novels is only gonna ruin it for you...can't really get what, mr martin was thinking ...and no i'm not buying the "in the middle ages people grew up faster etc etc" excuse...the ages vs. acts/thoughts situations, in these books are just plain wrong and kinna "ruin" the story

Actually the ages are right around where they have to be at the start of the story. Dany and Sansa have to be young, due to the custom of marrying you daughters off when they come of age which was a custom of the middle ages.

Even though Robb is so young, he would be nothing like a 15 year old of today. He would have been being groomed to be the Head of House Stark from the day he was born. And if he didn't look like he was going to cut it he may very well be treated like Samwell was. Childhood in the middle ages cannot even be compared to the childhoods that our kids today are living. They trained to fight and kill and be leaders from a very young age.

Even with that said all the young people in the book make mistakes that show their youth. Robb marring Jeyne Westerling. An older man probably would have known better. Jon was ready to break his oath and run to war with Robb, which would have gotten him is head cutoff most likely. Dany trusting Mirri Maz Dur was an incredibly stupid mistake that probably wouldn't have been made by an older person.

I think this youngness is easily attributable to Arya's having nobody's like Chiswick and Weese killed. She makes hasty decisions partly due to Jaqen rushing her decision and partly due to thinking mostly about what benefits her right now as opposed to what would benefit the entire Stark House.

[lyvyathan]

Okay, having just re-read CoK, I am wondering about the part in which Arya is brought to Harrenhal by the Mountain and is put to work serving the current proprietors, which is Lord Tywin's host and allies. A few days later Rorge, Biter and Jaqen H'ghar come rolling in to Harrenhal. H'ghar sees Arya and offers to kill any three people of her choosing in order to make up for her saving the three of them from the fire earlier in the novel. Now, is there some reason that Arya could not choose Tywin Lannister? He is the primary military commander of the enemies of House Stark, the most formidable, and the one likely to give her brother the biggest challenge. Killing him would have came close to winning the war in itself. Jaqen H'Ghar is a Faceless Man, an assassin of supreme skill and ability, is there some reason he could not have killed Lord Tywin? Or the Mountain? Instead Arya picks out a few nobodies which make absolutely no difference. I mean, Weese? I have noticed as this story progresses that Arya really isn't the smartest person around, in fact my early sympathy for her has pretty much evaporated. I think Sansa, to my surprise, has become the more interesting sympathetic character of the Stark girls.

In Arya's POV, she mentions that it was a "duh" moment and that she was not thinking carefully about her choices.

Having said that if she had indeed gne and sent H'Gar to kill the most prominent people on her daily prayer list - the story would have become shorter.

I think GRRM made a mistake in writing the story of this "uber ninja genie" - "what's your wish master?" plotline.

It made an interesting reading - but it felt like the story dropped down a few notches at that stage. Super ninja-like assassins are cute plot devices - but it defeats GRRM's masterplan of making the series a very realistic medieval fantasy. Jumping the shark imho.

[Blaer Dayle]

It made an interesting reading - but it felt like the story dropped down a few notches at that stage. Super ninja-like assassins are cute plot devices - but it defeats GRRM's masterplan of making the series a very realistic medieval fantasy. Jumping the shark imho.

Yeah because zombie-like-others, dragons, a girl that doesn't burn in fire, a family with dragon blood, wildfire, magical children, trees with faces, gods that speak through forests, prophetic dreams through greensight, warging, shadow babies that kill people, jewels that protect a wearer from poison, ghosts showing up to win battles, a guild of magicians with a magical maze and powers of illusion who are kept alive by a suspended blue floating heart, assassins who can change their appearance at will, blades honed to perfection through magical means, a kingdom built using magic as its basis, giants, a 300 foot high ice wall fortified with magic, krakens, witches who can summon death and turn unborn babies into monsters, mammoths and direwolves existing alongside humans, winters and summers that last for indistinct amounts of time as a result of some cataclysmic event, etc., are all totally gritty and realistic right... people never realize that the story was never realistic and gripe on the most basic plot elements. Just enjoy the story for what it is.

[lyvyathan]

Yeah because zombie-like-others, dragons, a girl that doesn't burn in fire, a family with dragon blood, wildfire, magical children, trees with faces, gods that speak through forests, prophetic dreams through greensight, warging, shadow babies that kill people, jewels that protect a wearer from poison, ghosts showing up to win battles, a guild of magicians with a magical maze and powers of illusion who are kept alive by a suspended blue floating heart, assassins who can change their appearance at will, blades honed to perfection through magical means, a kingdom built using magic as its basis, giants, a 300 foot high ice wall fortified with magic, krakens, witches who can summon death and turn unborn babies into monsters, mammoths and direwolves existing alongside humans, winters and summers that last for indistinct amounts of time as a result of some cataclysmic event, etc., are all totally gritty and realistic right... people never realize that the story was never realistic and gripe on the most basic plot elements. Just enjoy the story for what it is.

GRRM said in his interviews that he wished to keep the fantasy aspect of the story to a minimum.

Notice in the earlier interviews that he even said Dany's invulnerability to fire was suppose to be a once off.

A story has a certain integrity about it - but when it starts to evolve or change - it might not be so good. Adding Deux Ex Machina subplots to save the main plots tears at that integrity. I give you another comparison - the Eagles in Lord of the Rings - When I first read it as a kid, I thought it was wonderful that they suddenly showed up to save the day in book 3. But thinking about it later - you have to wonder about it - "Where were the damn things all this time?" etc...

So throwing in a super ninja genie into the mix - and letting Arya use him to kill off minor characters is a bit like that.

I call it pausible unreality. Its taken for granted that Superman can fly - but if he suddenly developed the power to resurrect the dead or bend space time - it gets to a "Heroes" moment doesn't it. It looks like lazy script writing. Heck, the character is stuck what shall I do?

1. he opens the drawer to get a can opener.

2. he uses his healing powers to transform the beer can into a coldy mug.

3. Morph his arm into a magical swiss army pen knife.

[Ser Barristan BadAss]

I think, Arya is still a child, while ordering the murder of Joffrey, Tywin and 'The Mountain' would be best for the Kingdom and the King in the North in general it does not benefit her. I mean when you were young you would rather harm came to your teacher for instance because they gave you an after school detention, rather than praying that ill befalls some dictator. The ones she has killed are directly an annoyance to her.

[kephv]

So throwing in a super ninja genie into the mix - and letting Arya use him to kill off minor characters is a bit like that.

I call it pausible unreality. Its taken for granted that Superman can fly - but if he suddenly developed the power to resurrect the dead or bend space time - it gets to a "Heroes" moment doesn't it. It looks like lazy script writing. Heck, the character is stuck what shall I do?

Does Jaqen have some super powers that we haven't been let on to? He kills both his targets by completely plausible means, and he's as human as anyone else.

[Roose Seal]

The Faceless Men do not kill with magic.

GRRM said in his interviews that he wished to keep the fantasy aspect of the story to a minimum.

Notice in the earlier interviews that he even said Dany's invulnerability to fire was suppose to be a once off.

A story has a certain integrity about it - but when it starts to evolve or change - it might not be so good. Adding Deux Ex Machina subplots to save the main plots tears at that integrity. I give you another comparison - the Eagles in Lord of the Rings - When I first read it as a kid, I thought it was wonderful that they suddenly showed up to save the day in book 3. But thinking about it later - you have to wonder about it - "Where were the damn things all this time?" etc...

So throwing in a super ninja genie into the mix - and letting Arya use him to kill off minor characters is a bit like that.

I call it pausible unreality. Its taken for granted that Superman can fly - but if he suddenly developed the power to resurrect the dead or bend space time - it gets to a "Heroes" moment doesn't it. It looks like lazy script writing. Heck, the character is stuck what shall I do?

1. he opens the drawer to get a can opener.

2. he uses his healing powers to transform the beer can into a coldy mug.

3. Morph his arm into a magical swiss army pen knife.

How are Jaqen and the Faceless men any less "realistic" than all the magical stuff that happens in Westeros and Essos ?

Why would you be bothered by Jaqen's intervention and not Melisandre giving birth to murderous shadow babies when it's quite clear that Jaqen doesn't even kill with magic ?

The face changing is somewhat explained in DwD, but it's not any more of a deus ex machina than the dragons.

It's a silly complaint. ASOIAF may be "gritty" and "dark" fantasy, but it's still fantasy and magic is very real in that world.

[lyvyathan]

The Faceless Men do not kill with magic.

How are Jaqen and the Faceless men any less "realistic" than all the magical stuff that happens in Westeros and Essos ?

Why would you be bothered by Jaqen's intervention and not Melisandre giving birth to murderous shadow babies when it's quite clear that Jaqen doesn't even kill with magic ?

The discussion was about H'gar and Arya's relationship with the convenient killer assassin who seems freakishly unstoppable. It didn't have anything to do with Mel's magical uterus. Please keep up and stop making silly remarks.

Just because Dany gets a trio of dragons doesn't mean that everyone else should get their own killer apps.

I didn't particularly appreciate H'gar and the faceless men because of their superhuman strength of their killer abilities which begs the question - why aren't they a major force in the politics of the 7 Kingdoms and the eastern lands? And why do they simply allow random beggar girls from defeated Noble houses to wander into their institution?

[Hound's She-wolf]

And why do they simply allow random beggar girls from defeated Noble houses to wander into their institution?

Cuz she had an iron coin? j/k

The three deaths were GRRM's take on the genie and the three wishes, the first two are mistakes and the third is to try to make up for the first two. We, as the all knowing adult readers could easily give her three or four people that were better choices, but she is a traumitized, reactive child. What is she, nine? She is not going to think about the big picture.